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Author Topic: Can our pictures actually achieve anything positive?  (Read 21141 times)

Rob C

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Can our pictures actually achieve anything positive?
« on: May 14, 2016, 01:09:09 pm »

During my aborted-by-storm day in Palma yesterday, I wandered past this shop whose services my late wife and I knew very well. On one floor there's the wigs department where you can select something to suit your personal style - should stress allow you to keep a sense of same - and on another floor the hairdressers where you get sent to have your head shaved prior to the eventual fitting of the wig.

It's not something of which you think every day; however, when you do, it leaves quite an impression with you for a while. Perhaps something good might come, for someone out there, from this snapshot. I hope so.



Rob C

GrahamBy

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Re: Can our pictures actually achieve anything positive?
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2016, 06:45:21 am »

Personal resonances...
Two weeks ago I came across a wig shop like this in Hannover, and it just seemed a little surprising. I don't think there is one similar in Lyon, oe it is hidden, I was supposing that it was just a different culture regarding wigs.
I didn't think about cancer... although I work in cancer research, we don't get involved in treatment, so that side of the story remains abstract. My father died 40 years ago of pancreatic cancer, but there is no useful treatment for that (there still isn't), so no hair loss.
That particular resonance is not present.

People have the impression that cancer rates are increasing: the irony is, it's mostly because we've done such a good job on reducing heart attacks by improving diet... which makes almost no difference to cancer rates, despite the protestations of my true-believer colleagues.

Cancer is many different diseases. Some of the most frequent are decreasing quite strongly (lung, stomach). Some we've gotten quite good at curing, others are no better than 100 years back. Even "breast cancer" is at least 5 different diseases with very different outcomes... and every time we bring out more technology and start talking about learning how to "cure cancer"... we just learn how more about how complicated and varied it is. We're heading towards a realisation that we all have little cancers, all the time, just some of them escape. And a lot of that is just luck of the draw, a DNA replication error that wasn't repaired, that was in a bad spot, and that slipped through the gaps of our personal immune system.
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Rob C

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Re: Can our pictures actually achieve anything positive?
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2016, 08:58:59 am »

Yes, you see a lot of new things once your eyes have been opened to cancer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOeI68OmsnU

There's even a few versions of the above, pointing out the lack of hair. I heard a different version on KLRZFM.com some years ago, before they changed the music to another station in the group, and e-mailed them complaining about the psychological effect it had on somebody suffering the effects of chemotherapy. Got a reply, eventually, saying they didn't mean to hurt anyone... I found it quite surprising that one of their sponsors, at the time, was a big Louisiana cancer hospital; perhaps they never listen to the music they pay for via sponsorship.

Anyway, on the matter of self-inspection: any women out there doing it, don't ignore the fact that it can also appear very high up the rib cage, pretty much at the armpit. It isn't just found in the fuller parts of your breasts. Take it very seriously.

And get second-opìnions: the first guy told my wife it wasn't what she feared - just an infection, but to go see a hospital if she insisted. I insisted, and that's where they eventually discovered what it was, but even that took a couple of crucial weeks.

Don't play roulette with health. You'll find there's a Russian in there.

Rob C
« Last Edit: May 21, 2016, 02:06:25 pm by Rob C »
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Ray

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Re: Can our pictures actually achieve anything positive?
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2016, 09:46:30 am »

There are lots of preventative measures and cures for cancer which simply don't appeal to most people. The right diet and regular exercise can be a part of the prevention, but in particular, regular or intermittent fasting can not only prevent cancer occurring but can be as effective a cure as chemotherapy, but without the side effects.

If the cancer is advanced, serious fasting by itself might not be sufficient. However, fasting in conjunction with chemotherapy or radiation can be the most effective treatment of all.

The process of fasting, that is, completely abstaining from all food, and drinking only water for a number of days, frees up the body to naturally deal with any problems, whether emerging cancer cells or other matters.

Cancer cells in particular are unable to deal with a lack of food. They starve to death before you do.

Unfortunately, such a treatment is as unpopular as it is successful because no-one makes any money from the treatment, except the patient who saves money on food.

It's also a treatment which many people simply wouldn't have the will power to implement, as implied by the fact that the majority of people are overweight despite the knowledge that being overweight is not a healthy state of affairs.
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Rob C

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Re: Can our pictures actually achieve anything positive?
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2016, 02:08:56 pm »

Ray,

I wish I'd heard about this possibility. I can assure you, we'd have tried anything.

Rob

GrahamBy

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Re: Can our pictures actually achieve anything positive?
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2016, 05:07:30 pm »

There are lots of preventative measures and cures for cancer which simply don't appeal to most people. The right diet and regular exercise can be a part of the prevention, but in particular, regular or intermittent fasting can not only prevent cancer occurring but can be as effective a cure as chemotherapy, but without the side effects

I'm sorry Ray, it's just not true. There are a few anecdotes, but whenever fasting etc has been tried in a serious randomized trial, it hasn't worked. One of the symptoms of advanced cancer is cachexia: the cancer steals all the nutrition coming in and starts consuming the rest of the body as well.

It is true that keeping your weight down will help lower the risk though, by about 40% for most of the common cancers. So will staying fit and active, not smoking or drinking. Avoiding red meat seems to help for a couple of cancers (colorectal, upper stomach, prostate) Those are the approaches no one wants to know about...

Also, as I said, cancers are different. There is a 95% cure rate for testicular cancer thanks to cis-platin chemo, previously it had 30% 5 year survival. In contrast, most types of lung cancer respond brilliantly at first, but 95% relapse within a year or two. Small, screen-detected ER/PR+ breast cancers have 95+% survival, but those which do not have any of the three hormone receptors, the so-called "triple negatives", are very bad news, recurrences can happen many years later.

There have been some big steps forward in experimental use of "immune therapy" in the last year: it involves taking some of the tumour, finding out where it is mutated and then priming the immune system to attack cells carrying those mutations. It's still experimental and is likely to be horrendously expensive.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Can our pictures actually achieve anything positive?
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2016, 02:57:57 am »

There are lots of preventative measures and cures for cancer which simply don't appeal to most people. The right diet and regular exercise can be a part of the prevention, but in particular, regular or intermittent fasting can not only prevent cancer occurring but can be as effective a cure as chemotherapy, but without the side effects.

This is dangerous drivel. Belief in garbage of this kind is one reason why Steve Jobs, for example, is dead.

Jeremy
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stamper

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Re: Can our pictures actually achieve anything positive?
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2016, 03:32:10 am »

A cure for cancer? If there had been one then it would be headlines around the world. Ray you should re think your terminology?  :-[
BTW should we be posting about this subject at this particular time??? Someone please lock this thread. :o
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 03:36:21 am by stamper »
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Tony Jay

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Re: Can our pictures actually achieve anything positive?
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2016, 03:37:03 am »

There are lots of preventative measures and cures for cancer which simply don't appeal to most people. The right diet and regular exercise can be a part of the prevention, but in particular, regular or intermittent fasting can not only prevent cancer occurring but can be as effective a cure as chemotherapy, but without the side effects.

If the cancer is advanced, serious fasting by itself might not be sufficient. However, fasting in conjunction with chemotherapy or radiation can be the most effective treatment of all.

The process of fasting, that is, completely abstaining from all food, and drinking only water for a number of days, frees up the body to naturally deal with any problems, whether emerging cancer cells or other matters.

Cancer cells in particular are unable to deal with a lack of food. They starve to death before you do.

Unfortunately, such a treatment is as unpopular as it is successful because no-one makes any money from the treatment, except the patient who saves money on food.

It's also a treatment which many people simply wouldn't have the will power to implement, as implied by the fact that the majority of people are overweight despite the knowledge that being overweight is not a healthy state of affairs.
I am sorry Ray but this really is rubbish.
I happen to be a physician so I do know what I am talking about.
If you are not already aware Jeremy, in a former life, was a neurosurgical trainee before changing careers to law.

There are no "conspiracy theories" where good therapy for "cancer" is wilfully withheld by the medical profession.
If the management you suggest worked it would be implemented by the medical profession.

In addition there is no single disease called cancer.
In fact it could be correctly said that each individual that has a malignancy actually has a unique disease.
It is this fact, despite some really good advances in oncology, that still makes treating malignancies such a challenge.

I would be the first to confirm that many (most? all?) therapies that work actually work only because they poison the tumour just a little bit more than they poison the patient overall.
It is true that many people undergoing therapy for malignancies suffer nasty side-effects from these therapies. This includes chemotherapy, radiotherapy, as well as hormonal and other adjunctive therapy.
In intensive care where I practice a lot of oncology patients that end up in ICU are there because of life-threatening complications of the therapy for their malignancies.

Enormous effort in oncological research is currently directed at increasing the therapeutic effect on the tumour while reducing (or eliminating) the adverse effects on the patient overall. Some research using knowledge gained in immunology is especially promising and may allow the delivery of very toxic drugs directly to the tumour mass without much adverse effect to the patient.

During the course of my career there have been dramatic improvements in survival rates from most malignancies but the situation is far from celebratory.
A BIG problem still in oncology is the ability to detect most malignancies at a size where they can be easily dealt with. By the time the patient and/or the clinician is aware that there is a problem the ballgame is already over in a lot of cases.
This problem is also receiving a LOT of attention at the research level and at the clinical level we are seeing an incremental improvement in our ability to detect malignancies at an earlier stage.

In summary, it is not a good idea to spread silly myths and rumours about important health issues - peoples lives will depend on common sense information and common sense decisions.

Tony Jay
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Rob C

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Re: Can our pictures actually achieve anything positive?
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2016, 04:17:47 am »

A cure for cancer? If there had been one then it would be headlines around the world. Ray you should re think your terminology?  :-[
BTW should we be posting about this subject at this particular time??? Someone please lock this thread. :o


No stamper.

This was started before I knew that Michael's health had deteriorated.

I have had very close connections with cancer and I can tell you, any understanding is welcomed. Hiding one's head under the blanket doesn't drive away the devils. Far better to dispel, once and for all, the hellish silence that has surrounded this subject for so many decades - let's have it out there, so people have a chance of finding it quickly enough perhaps to do something about it.

You are under no obligation to participate; you may prefer to pretend it doesn't exist.

Rob C
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 08:49:41 am by Rob C »
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stamper

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Re: Can our pictures actually achieve anything positive?
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2016, 09:23:20 am »


No stamper.

This was started before I knew that Michael's health had deteriorated.

I have had very close connections with cancer and I can tell you, any understanding is welcomed. Hiding one's head under the blanket doesn't drive away the devils. Far better to dispel, once and for all, the hellish silence that has surrounded this subject for so many decades - let's have it out there, so people have a chance of finding it quickly enough perhaps to do something about it. :o

You are under no obligation to participate; you may prefer to pretend it doesn't exist.

Rob C

The reference to cancer started in Reply #2 after the announcement. Under the circumstances I don't think it is appropriate. After all this is a photography site and the connection between cancer and wigs is tenuous at best.

degrub

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Re: Can our pictures actually achieve anything positive?
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2016, 09:33:48 am »

Chemo, radiation -> hair loss -> use of wig
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Rob C

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Re: Can our pictures actually achieve anything positive?
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2016, 09:48:05 am »

Chemo, radiation -> hair loss -> use of wig


Thank you; it's part of the lack of understanding so many have because they haven't been there.

I can't see a woman in a headscarf anymore without thinking poor girl, and hoping I get to see she's actually got hair beneath it. And another thing: losing her hair is psychologically far more awful for a woman that for any man; wigs are very poor substitutes, however expensive they might have been, and bring problems of their own.

Rob

Rob C

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Re: Can our pictures actually achieve anything positive?
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2016, 09:56:51 am »

The reference to cancer started in Reply #2 after the announcement. Under the circumstances I don't think it is appropriate. After all this is a photography site and the connection between cancer and wigs is tenuous at best.


Incorrect: it's right there, in my original post with picture.

I refer to the prescience of my posting/starting this thread in my own message of condolence in the thread dedicated to the announcement of Michael's passing.

Had the times been reversed, I wouldn't have posted the shot in Coffee Corner, but as more usual for me, in Without Prejudice, without the appeal for charitable donations, and simply as a photograph of something a bit unusual.

I hope that nobody in LuLa thinks this an opportunity to start another fight.

Rob C

Zorki5

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Re: Can our pictures actually achieve anything positive?
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2016, 04:08:20 pm »

Under the circumstances I don't think it is appropriate.

I beg to differ.

As someone who suffered the loss of several very close relatives under very similar tragic circumstances, I fully support the idea of giving this topic more visibility. Heck, if anything, the circumstances make it even more appropriate, as more people will open their eyes to the huge piles of problems surrounding cancer.

For instance: it's been pointed above that there are new promising treatments being developed, but they are going to be very, very expensive. OK, how many people do realize that pouring money into obsolete defense programs instead of cancer research and treatment is a crime? I do not expect people taking my view on that, but I'd want them to at least start thinking about that, and this thread helps in that respect.
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GrahamBy

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Re: Can our pictures actually achieve anything positive?
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2016, 04:18:38 pm »

This is dangerous drivel. Belief in garbage of this kind is one reason why Steve Jobs, for example, is dead.

Jeremy

Jobs had cancer of the pancreas. While I'm sceptical about alternative cures, that puts him in the "nothing left to lose" category. Three years ago, the head of the cancer bioinformatics unit across the street diagnosed his own pancreatic cancer. Early diagnosis, knew exactly where to go for the best treatment. With his time as a senior fellow at the US NCI, he had access to all the knowledge... he lasted a year.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Can our pictures actually achieve anything positive?
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2016, 05:10:04 pm »

Jobs had cancer of the pancreas. While I'm sceptical about alternative cures, that puts him in the "nothing left to lose" category. Three years ago, the head of the cancer bioinformatics unit across the street diagnosed his own pancreatic cancer. Early diagnosis, knew exactly where to go for the best treatment. With his time as a senior fellow at the US NCI, he had access to all the knowledge... he lasted a year.

There's more than one kind of pancreatic cancer. While details are obviously sparse, it appears that Jobs's was a neuroendocrine tumour, not the very much more usual adenocarcinoma.

Jeremy
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Ray

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Re: Can our pictures actually achieve anything positive?
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2016, 09:57:24 pm »

I am sorry Ray but this really is rubbish.
I happen to be a physician so I do know what I am talking about.
If you are not already aware Jeremy, in a former life, was a neurosurgical trainee before changing careers to law.

There are no "conspiracy theories" where good therapy for "cancer" is wilfully withheld by the medical profession.
If the management you suggest worked it would be implemented by the medical profession.


Tony,
I'm not into conspiracy theories. My statements are based upon reports I've read of scientific research on the subject. If you google the internet on the subject, as well as Google Scholar, you should find dozens of references to university-based research.

Perhaps you could do all these research establishments a favour by contacting them and advising them that they are wasting their time and money investigating the matter because you, being a physician, know that it's all rubbish.  ;)

Unfortunately, most of the research so far has concentrated on rats and mice in a laboratory. It's difficult to put humans in a completely controlled environment for a significant period of time, and it's also very expensive.

I can appreciate that any recommendation of serious fasting as a treatment for any condition is going to be hugely problematic because people enjoy eating so much.

Another facet of the problem is that it is not possible (logically) for fasting to be implemented by the medical profession. It could only be recommended by the medical profession, but would have  to be implemented by the patient. In other words, it would be a self-treatment, and that raises other obvious problems of an ethical nature.

The reality is that most people simply do not have the will-power to fast seriously for several days at a time without eating anything at all. They tend to cheat on themselves. They tend to kid themselves along the lines, "Well, I haven't eaten anything for 2 days, so one or two tasty hamburgers, or this healthy 'smoothy' drink of fruit and vegetables, shouldn't do me any harm", and so on. Self-reporting is notoriously unreliable.

There could also be a problem that certain people with pre-existing medical conditions who are dependent upon certain types of medication might suffer harm from the practice of fasting.

Here's a general article that covers the issue quite well. http://www.canceractive.com/cancer-active-page-link.aspx?n=3408
and here's an extract:

"Leading cancer centres and experts such as Dr Valter Longo of University of Southern California, Professor Thomas Seyfried of Boston, Dr Dominic D´Agostino, Assistant Professor of Molecular Pharmacology, University of South Florida, and the Max-Plank Institute show that fasting can play an important therapeutic role in the treatment of cancer."


You might also find the following report of a new study on the matter, interesting.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/778613

"For the first time ever, a randomized controlled trial that uses calorie restriction as a treatment for cancer — and measures a cancer-related outcome — was approved by the institutional review board at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina, and is on its way to the clinic.
In the entire field of cancer research, there have only been a handful of studies of calorie restriction as a cancer treatment," Stephen Freedland, MD, from Duke, told Medscape Medical News. But none of them were randomized clinical trials."


I think this trial began in 2013, so it's too late, Tony, for you to contact them to advise them they are wasting their time.  ;)

Now, to end this post I think it only fair that I should declare any personal or professional financial interests which could skew my opinion on this matter and result in a biased outlook.

I don't have any.  ;)

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Tony Jay

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Re: Can our pictures actually achieve anything positive?
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2016, 11:29:13 pm »

Ray, the fact that a single trial is currently being conducted does not in any way prove the hypothesis.

In addition there is a big difference to research being done on the level of cell biology and translating that into a coherent treatment regime. Unfortunately, so many promising avenues of treatment explored using animal models do not produce good results when applied to human beings. I am not denigrating animal research in this context merely emphasising that until the hypothesis is proven effective in trials using human beings it is nothing more than an attractive, but untested, idea.

I will tell you this - starving a patient with "cancer" does nothing but kill the patient.
Starving a tumour of nutrients allowing it to grow is a much more complicated process than merely starving the patient.
I have seen tumours grow and kill patients who were unable to eat for extended periods of time.
Also, the reason why so many patients with malignant tumours become wasted is because the tumours change the whole metabolism of the body is altered by hormones and other mediators secreted by the tumour. In essence the tumour gets fat at the expense of the rest of the body.

Also, there is a big difference between public health measures to reduce the incidence of various diseases such as cessation of smoking and eating a healthy diet (howsoever defined) and measures taken to actually treat a patient with a specific disease.
In the post that I originally responded to it appeared that you were confusing the two.
In addition, the article from CancerActive that you reference is also confusing this exact issue and also makes statements that absolutely do not stand any scrutiny. Lets just look at one silly thing that they say: They mention that obese women with breast cancer do worse than their counterparts who are not obese. This observation is true of ANY patient population with a serious disease of any sort. However the implication that one directly affects tumour biology by losing weight is entirely unproven at this point. This whole article is a compendium of misinterpreted results and poor circumstantial evidence.

Yes, I will watch out for the publication of this study that you allude to.
My guess is that the result will not be generally applicable - whatever its outcome - but we will see.

Tony Jay
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Tony Jay

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Re: Can our pictures actually achieve anything positive?
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2016, 12:20:26 am »

Here is complete quote from pubmed written by the investigators of the trial that you quote.
This is a summary of an entire review article published in 2015:

BMC Med. 2015 Jan 8;13:3. doi: 10.1186/s12916-014-0234-y.
Nutrition, dietary interventions and prostate cancer: the latest evidence.
Lin PH1, Aronson W, Freedland SJ.
Author information

Abstract
Prostate cancer (PCa) remains a leading cause of mortality in US men and the prevalence continues to rise world-wide especially in countries where men consume a 'Western-style' diet. Epidemiologic, preclinical and clinical studies suggest a potential role for dietary intake on the incidence and progression of PCa. 'This minireview provides an overview of recent published literature with regard to nutrients, dietary factors, dietary patterns and PCa incidence and progression. Low carbohydrates intake, soy protein, omega-3 (w-3) fat, green teas, tomatoes and tomato products and zyflamend showed promise in reducing PCa risk or progression. A higher saturated fat intake and a higher β-carotene status may increase risk. A 'U' shape relationship may exist between folate, vitamin C, vitamin D and calcium with PCa risk. Despite the inconsistent and inconclusive findings, the potential for a role of dietary intake for the prevention and treatment of PCa is promising. The combination of all the beneficial factors for PCa risk reduction in a healthy dietary pattern may be the best dietary advice. This pattern includes rich fruits and vegetables, reduced refined carbohydrates, total and saturated fats, and reduced cooked meats. Further carefully designed prospective trials are warranted.

Note several important issues.
Note how careful their language is - no sweeping statements at all and, in fact, very tentative language.
Why? Their audience is just like me - people who know what they are talking about and will point out each and every time they overstep the evidence base.
Note also that this article only makes reference to prostate cancer, and, if you read the rest of his publications on prostate cancer, you will realise that the term "prostate cancer" is, in itself, a gross overgeneralisation.
These individuals are not generalising in the slightest.
They are well aware that there is no proof that their hypothesis is correct - note the final sentence - they are acknowledging just this.

So, it is likely that the study in progress is only looking at the impact of diet on prostate cancer and nothing else.
Whatever the result it will be applicable to prostate cancer and nothing else.

The source that you cite (at least the ones that I looked at) are not scientific at all. The fact that they cite various studies as "proof" of their claims does not in fact stand scrutiny as I said. Who, exactly, is the author of that article in CancerActive? No oncologist would have written that - an article like that would destroy his or her reputation irreparably. No, it seems that Mr A Nonymous wrote this article along with everything else on that website. So, whoever wrote this stuff has no idea how to evaluate scientific/medical research data and is actually writing to an agenda instead.

Ray, you have fallen down a bit of a black hole.
I understand that it may be difficult to evaluate information of this nature.
One needs years and years of training and knowledge related to the subject matter to interpret it properly.
My advice to you is not to uncritically accept web-based information as far as health is concerned.

I can only say that two individuals who are members of this forum with REAL medical knowledge have pulled you up very sharply on an issue that you chose to publicise.

There simply is no evidence that supports anything more than a common-sense dietary approach in both disease prevention and disease treatment.
Any variation from this should be done absolutely because properly trained medical professionals directly recommend it you as a patient.
One cannot generalise when it comes to treating disease and this is becoming increasingly clear in oncology.
The blunderbuss approach taken to, especially, chemotherapy and adjunctive therapy in the past is increasingly being replaced by a much more individualised approach as the technology to do it becomes available. Oncology is just dipping into this now and the process will take many decades.

Ray, as an individual, you are welcome to your opinion, and to state it.
However, also as an individual, and a medically-trained one at that, I cannot stand by and allow falsehoods and mistruths to be promulgated.

Tony Jay

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