PRO-2000 on its way - questions?

[Ernst Dinkla]

Just while I'm writing up a longish PRO-1000 review (should be done in a few days), Canon UK have called and told me they are looking to send me the (even bigger) PRO-2000 in a couple of weeks  (this will need to be discussed with house management at an opportune moment ;-) )

It will be a pre-production unit, but pretty much what should ship (maybe not for a couple of months here in the UK).  If anyone has any specific questions, please let me know, since I may only have it here for a couple of weeks at the most?

Keith,

Could you check the difference in gamuts on glossy media (like a Hahnemühle Baryta quality) for the Canon Pro-2000 and a Canon iPFx4xx model? I got an expert's comment that the difference is huge between the Pro 1000 and iPF 8400, partly as a result of the gloss enhancer. The Pro 1000 reviews do not mention a dramatic difference though.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[Geraldo Garcia]

Could you check the difference in gamuts on glossy media (like a Hahnemühle Baryta quality) for the Canon Pro-2000 and a Canon iPFx4xx model? I got an expert's comment that the difference is huge between the Pro 1000 and iPF 8400, partly as a result of the gloss enhancer. The Pro 1000 reviews do not mention a dramatic difference though.

As I was reading your question I decided to check Hahnemühle's website and found the profiles for the pro 1000. Comparing their profiles for the pro 1000 and the ipf 8400 I noticed a gamut reduction, mostly on the green/yellow area. Sure it is not a controlled experiment, but the reduction is consistent on every paper. Then I decided to check Canson profiles for the pro 1000 and found exactly the same issue.

Looks like the new inkset really imposes a gamut reduction when compared tho the 12 ink Lucia EX. On average it is something like 7 or 8% less volume, but mostly on greens and yellows.

[Ernst Dinkla]

As I was reading your question I decided to check Hahnemühle's website and found the profiles for the pro 1000. Comparing their profiles for the pro 1000 and the ipf 8400 I noticed a gamut reduction, mostly on the green/yellow area. Sure it is not a controlled experiment, but the reduction is consistent on every paper. Then I decided to check Canson profiles for the pro 1000 and found exactly the same issue.

Looks like the new inkset really imposes a gamut reduction when compared tho the 12 ink Lucia EX. On average it is something like 7 or 8% less volume, but mostly on greens and yellows.

Geraldo, thank you.

Was that profile search aimed at the glossy papers?

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[MHMG]

Looks like the new inkset really imposes a gamut reduction when compared tho the 12 ink Lucia EX. On average it is something like 7 or 8% less volume, but mostly on greens and yellows.

Makes sense given that the green ink channel in the Lucia EX ink set was traded for the CO ink channel in the Lucia Pro ink set. Canon undoubtedly felt somewhat less  gamut when reproducing some vivid greens was a reasonable trade-off for less bronzing and differential gloss (and perhaps some increase in abrasion resistance?).  As for any subtle increases in gamut pertaining to other colors or darker tones when printing on glossy/luster media that would be afforded by the CO, I'm pretty sure one can achieve the same result by applying some Premier Print Shield, HN protective spray, etc.  I see time and time again with Premier Print Shield applied to "traditional fiber" papers like HN photo Rag Baryta, that Print Shield noticeably increased Dmax which in turn extends total gamut. Also, unless one has full control over the amount of CO being applied or is willing to trick the printer into a second pass, my personal experience has been that printers with GO or CO have clear coat thicknesses optimized for RC photo papers.  They can often fall short on the optimal amount necessary when applied to third party non RC media like all the baryta papers.  It will be interesting to hear Kieth's comments on CO effectiveness when used on non RC glossy/luster media.

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[keithcooper]

(just back from a break - no printer testing for a week!)

I'll be making any profiles (which include measurement data) available from my PRO-2000 testing for anyone wanting to give them a good going over - I'll try and do some that match ones I've got for the iPF8300 as well.

I looked at some prints from the 8300 and my feeling was more of everything looking a bit better except greens - I'd currently be quite happy to swap my green cart for CO.  Whilst I do make quite a lot of detailed measurements during reviews, I rarely publish them, since they only ever act as a general guide to my print evaluation, and I personally think too many people pay too much attention to any numbers you publish. I don't have a rigorous testing and evaluation methodology from printer to printer, so any numbers are mostly for internal use ;-)

If you look at the accounting data downloadable in the PRO-1000 review you can get an idea for CO usage, but any detailed settings for it don't exist (nor in the MCT for making custom media)

See also http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/paper/hahn_baryta.html

Loved the results on the HM papers...

The results on the HM Satin Baryta I tested look good, although I'd suggest looking at the QTR linearising curves in the pro-1000 review  for Pinnacle silk baryta 310 (Pk ink full and auto coating) for the subtle change in highlights (this is using BW print mode).

As to whether the CO is optimised, the lack any controls put such considerations well beyond the scope of the review (it's long enough already!)  I'll have another look when the PRO-2000 turns up.

[Geraldo Garcia]

Was that profile search aimed at the glossy papers?

Both glossy and matte, but the results are a bit different.
On glossy media the gamut volume of the new inkset seems to be smaller on the greens and greenish yellows, the rest is about the same and the total volume is 7 or 8% smaller depending on the paper.
On matte paper the same thing happens with the greens and greenish yellows, but the gamut increases a bit on the red/orange side and also a bit on the darker tones, so the total gamut volume is about the same on matte papers.

Let me just state again that I am drawing this conclusions based on the profiles provided by Hahnemühle and Canson for the Pro 1000 and for the IPF 8400. Obviously they used different printers, different measuring devices and, possibly, different softwares. Sure it is not a controlled experiment, but, on the other hand, when different sources produce similar results we identify a trend.

I am sure the new inkset renders beautiful and colorful prints, more than enough tho satisfy most users, but I will pay special attention to de greens on foliage when testing the new printers.
 

[howardm]

Is that graph from the ColorThink package?

[Geraldo Garcia]

Is that graph from the ColorThink package?

Yes it is, but I can't say for sure the version as I did it on a client's computer while waiting for a training meeting (they pay by the hour, so I don't mind waiting and being paid to read LULA forum! ).

[keithcooper]

A van turned up this morning with a new PRO-2000 for me to test... I noticed that they were also delivering an iPF8300 (44") to someone else

The printer was to be removed from the stand and brought round the side of the house (the same way a large sofa and grand piano were moved in place). The printer couldn't be moved through the house because of a 90 degree turn through a doorway (it would need tipping on its end, like the Epson P7000 I had here in March)

Unfortunately, the PRO-2000 was already loaded with ink, so could not be  tilted on its side or back (if removed from the stand).

Width required if moved as-is ~740mm
Width required if taken off stand and rotated 90 degrees along long axis ~620mm

Whoops, it seems that we need a brand new printer - which does at least mean I can write a 'set-up' article as well as the review...

Now, it may be that once the delivery people have more experience of moving the new printers, they will know how far and in what way you can -really- tilt them, but at the moment they are sticking exactly to what Canon says.

Now waiting for a completely new printer...

However I did touch it, so I believe this is the first 'Hands-on review' of the PRO-2000 ;-)

--
bye for now
Keith Cooper

[GrahamBy]

Just a random thought: the pro-2000 and the 5DS are about the same price, but the difference in size & weight is rather staggering...

[keithcooper]

Just a random thought: the pro-2000 and the 5DS are about the same price, but the difference in size & weight is rather staggering...

As is their ability to move around my house...

[howardm]

They should have just left the van w/ printers in the driveway and run a power extension cord to it.

[GrahamBy]

Whoops, it seems that we need a brand new printer - which does at least mean I can write a 'set-up' article as well as the review...

Cool... but, ummm, how will they remove it once you've finished?

[keithcooper]

Cool... but, ummm, how will they remove it once you've finished?

Very carefully...

You can of course empty such printers for transport if you have a pile of maintenance carts.

There is a 'do not press this button' option on the PRO-1000



"Prepare to transportation" ...another Canon gem of a display message, although not quite up to "The maintenance cartridge becomes almost full" ;-)

[iCanvas]

Hey Keith,

Would like you to try printing and comparing the prints at different resolutions. 600x600, 1200x1200 and 1200x2400 to see if there is any visual difference in quality, especially on canvas. These resolutions sizes don't seem to be in the PRO-1000. I think that there is "standard" and "highest quality".

Did you get the printer yet?

Gar

[keithcooper]

Hey Keith,

Would like you to try printing and comparing the prints at different resolutions. 600x600, 1200x1200 and 1200x2400 to see if there is any visual difference in quality, especially on canvas. These resolutions sizes don't seem to be in the PRO-1000. I think that there is "standard" and "highest quality".

Did you get the printer yet?

Gar

I'll add it to the list - no ETA yet though for a printer :-(

[kevinmcdnyc]

On Sunday, Adorama in NYC had a street fair in front of their store. Canon was in attendance with the Pro-2000. I asked about the ink permanence numbers.  He said Canon is always very conservative with their numbers and that the large Pro printers are currently in testing at Wilhelm with the data expected to be announce in Aug/Sept.

[howardm]

Any notion of the street price of the -2000 ?

[I.T. Supplies]

We've been pretty busy ourselves with the updates on the Pro series, but we got out Pro-4000 production unit put together and working last week.  It's really cool and very simple to use.  Driver installation is a breeze (takes a few minutes for basic drivers) and has MANY free features.  The Photoshop plug-in is no longer available, BUT, it's been updated to be the software linked into Photoshop as a printing program.  So, you can either print from Photoshop or Canon's software called Print Studio Pro.

Attached some pics of the new printer (next to the 8400).  It is about 11" narrower than the iPF, but a bit more sturdy (heavier), so will take about 3-4 people to move the printer onto the stand (1 person to guide the body on the stand).

Since the shipment of the printers came in late last week/early this week, Wilhelm received their unit (or just getting it) to start testing the longevity.
We've tested an image from standard quality and max quality on a metallic paper and could barely tell a difference, but the print looked great!  We did print it from a USB drive which is nice.  And the other great feature is all Pro printers are no WiFi capable.

Pricing should be available soon.

IT Supplies

[iCanvas]

Did the Pro-4000 seem to print faster than the 8400?