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Author Topic: Formula change for Epson Exhibition Fiber paper  (Read 7823 times)

pearlstreet

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Re: Formula change for Epson Exhibition Fiber paper
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2016, 03:59:59 pm »

I have had great color results with Hahnemuhle Photo Silk Baryta.

Sharon
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Formula change for Epson Exhibition Fiber paper
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2016, 08:24:12 pm »

Glad to see that my post generated a lot of discussion. There's always a lot to be learned from these posts.

I use Museo Silver Rag for my B&W work. I like it's 'unbleached' tone and the DMAX that it provides, although I've experienced numerous problems with it during 2014-2015. Now that the product is under new ownership, they seem to have things under control. That said, I've seen the surface texture and gloss change ever so slightly over the years.

I found a box of 23x30 EEF in my storage area, so I'm set for awhile. That said, I want to move on to a better paper for my color work. As I said, I'm not keen on OBAs, so that narrows down the possibilities.

One gentleman suggested one of the following papers. Before ordering samples, feel free to weigh in on which you would look at ... pros/cons

• Epson Legacy Baryta (Legacy has no OBA)
• Ilford Golde Fibre Silk
• Canson Baryta Photographique
• Several of the Hahnemuhle products (Fine Art Baryta Satin has no OBA)

Jan, sorry one clarification/correction: Epson Legacy Baryta is the one in the four new Legacy papers that does have what Epson calls a very small amount of brightening agent, but the Platine does not. Both of them are lovely papers, by the way. You can read about them in my review on this website.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Formula change for Epson Exhibition Fiber paper
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2016, 03:57:40 pm »


One gentleman suggested one of the following papers. Before ordering samples, feel free to weigh in on which you would look at ... pros/cons

• Epson Legacy Baryta (Legacy has no OBA)
• Ilford Golde Fibre Silk
• Canson Baryta Photographique
• Several of the Hahnemuhle products (Fine Art Baryta Satin has no OBA)

That list may give you 2 to 4 identical papers with only a brand name difference. I have not measured the Epson Legacy Baryta but it would not surprise me if it resembles the other two mentioned here. Among the Hahnemühle papers the Photo Silk Baryta will give you the same quality. All satin so less glossy as the EEF was.

For EEF resemblance, gloss and whiteness, it will be hard to avoid OBA content. The SpectrumViz map AlphaCellulose>HighGloss,Glazed contains several paper qualities that come close, almost all have OBA content. Some were tested by Aardenburg-Imaging.com, you have to check which were better on longevity than EEF in the tests. Check the paper white patch shifts.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

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Mark D Segal

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Re: Formula change for Epson Exhibition Fiber paper
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2016, 04:19:20 pm »

Ernst, as you know quite a bit about the paper business and you live in the EU where most of these papers are manufactured in one or the other of the several plants that exist which can do that, perhaps you could explain on what legal basis either a paper manufacturing facility (perhaps facilities because more than one may be involved with the same paper) or the brand-name company marketing the paper can simply re-brand the same thing and not run afoul of European and international copyright conventions, which are pretty strict or be sued by the offended party; the only exception I could think of would be if they were in cahoots with each other, in which case they could be contravening European competition law, which is by all accounts stricter than ours in North America. I think the more likely story is that there are subtle differences between these papers mandated by the ink and paper technologists the printer manufacturers and the better name-brand paper companies employ in order to determine the formulae they want reflected in their brand, in cooperation with the paper manufacturers. Some of these differences may be quite technical and perhaps not necessarily captured in your Spectrum Viz readings or in some other spectrophotometric readings of these papers.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Formula change for Epson Exhibition Fiber paper
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2016, 05:28:02 pm »

Ernst, as you know quite a bit about the paper business and you live in the EU where most of these papers are manufactured in one or the other of the several plants that exist which can do that, perhaps you could explain on what legal basis either a paper manufacturing facility (perhaps facilities because more than one may be involved with the same paper) or the brand-name company marketing the paper can simply re-brand the same thing and not run afoul of European and international copyright conventions, which are pretty strict or be sued by the offended party; the only exception I could think of would be if they were in cahoots with each other, in which case they could be contravening European competition law, which is by all accounts stricter than ours in North America. I think the more likely story is that there are subtle differences between these papers mandated by the ink and paper technologists the printer manufacturers and the better name-brand paper companies employ in order to determine the formulae they want reflected in their brand, in cooperation with the paper manufacturers. Some of these differences may be quite technical and perhaps not necessarily captured in your Spectrum Viz readings or in some other spectrophotometric readings of these papers.

It always surprises me that EU laws are seen as more strict + consumer friendly than what the US has to offer in laws. The US class actions have a tradition where the EU just recently opened up that legal road for consumers. Lobbyists in Bruxelles (among them representatives of US companies) are probably as active as lobbyists are in Washington so our laws are compromised on consumer interests as well. The whole globe has felt the banking crises, my gut feeling is that the ones responsible for that crises were punished more in the US than in the EU. The Ahold stock affair delivered compensation for US and EU share holders in a US court, not in a EU court so far. More to the point; the Epson orange plague dye ink affair delivered compensation to US ink users, nothing happened in the EU, our class action system simply did not exist then.

I do not think that putting another label on a product is in conflict with any law in the EU if the label describes the product properly. Few standards other than EU metric units are required on inkjet papers. Contravening European competition law is certainly something where EU government has shown its quality, partly thanks to a tough Dutch lady. Hard to say whether that is happening with the papers we use. Some years ago I computed the costs of inkjet ink per ml for different cartridge sizes, all sold by the three big inkjet printer companies. There was a remarkable price correlation between the cartridge sizes. If Neeltje Smit Kroes had been my neighbour I would have told her to take action.

SpectrumViz does not reveal all the properties of inkjet papers so sure there could be differences in printing. Of the IGFS clones I am still in doubt whether there are one or two manufacturers. It could even be a baryta/fibre paper standard more manufacturers aim at, a situation quite common in papers for the offset printing industry.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Formula change for Epson Exhibition Fiber paper
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2016, 05:46:08 pm »

Interesting insights Ernst; so it does boil down to the fact that we really don't know for sure whether simple rebranding is happening. I guess I remain of the view that it would be difficult to pull this off absent some kind of collaboration agreement between brand owners, otherwise there would probably be legal screaming from some quarter or other and it isn't happening. When you think of it, the core of the inkjet printer technology is the print-head the ink and the paper. So the printer manufacturers need to have expertise in all these areas and it would not be beyond them to collaborate with paper makers on formulas that may have many common elements, but not completely. So we could end up with products that are seemingly very similar but not quite. And this allows them to legitimately claim some originality. This leaves us consumers in a good place, because it opens the possibility for making substitutions based on price without necessarily sacrificing much of the look and feel we want in a paper - a matter of individual preference.
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MHMG

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Re: Formula change for Epson Exhibition Fiber paper
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2016, 07:28:09 pm »

I guess I remain of the view that it would be difficult to pull this off absent some kind of collaboration agreement between brand owners, otherwise there would probably be legal screaming from some quarter or other and it isn't happening.

Well, if a company like FS develops a specific beloved, perhaps patented inkjet coating and methodology to apply said coating to numerous substrates, and thus, for example, it can coat its proprietary formulation on more than one paper mill's supplied paper core, and it can sell that coating to any company that wants to private label it because perhaps it doesn't offer a far-reaching retail outlet itself for said product, then it's very easy to see how numerous "nearly identical" media can end up in the market place, with no legal hassles whatsoever.  Adding to that plentitude of "look alike" products,  some ink manufacturers could approach the coating company and say "based on our own R&D efforts, could you throw in a little extra chemistry into your coating that improves our ink's compatibility with your otherwise proprietary coating" say for example, some chemical additives that improve dye stability on a coating originally developed for pigmented inks. Thus, even more spin-off products could occur that are essentially "look alike" products, but indeed optimizing some specific aspect of an ink manufacturer's ink set. IMHO, this is why we as endusers now have so many me-too look-alike products to choose from. Great from one point of view, rather annoying from another as many of us are now pursuing a "great paper chase".

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 07:31:49 pm by MHMG »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Formula change for Epson Exhibition Fiber paper
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2016, 07:37:02 pm »

As long as they aren't colluding on price, as a consumer I'm OK with that.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Formula change for Epson Exhibition Fiber paper
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2016, 09:33:56 pm »

If FS is manufacturing for other brands they are subject to non disclosure agreements with the contracting party.  There is nothing wrong with this and there are lots of industries around that do the same thing.  That in itself does not violate any antitrust collusion regulations.  The fact that there are similarities under Ernst's testing protocols is not unusual since these papers are highly popular.  Various paper vendors want to have something like this in their line and if they do not possess manufacturing capabilities they contract it out.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Formula change for Epson Exhibition Fiber paper
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2016, 08:39:25 am »

If FS is manufacturing for other brands they are subject to non disclosure agreements with the contracting party.  There is nothing wrong with this and there are lots of industries around that do the same thing.  That in itself does not violate any antitrust collusion regulations.  The fact that there are similarities under Ernst's testing protocols is not unusual since these papers are highly popular.  Various paper vendors want to have something like this in their line and if they do not possess manufacturing capabilities they contract it out.

Quite so Alan.

In fact, I think it would be fair to say that many of the vendors don't actually manufacture a square inch of the paper they brand, and at the manufacturing end more than one plant may be involved in the various stages of paper-making from substrate to coating to conversion. It is also true that certain vendors who do manufacture paper also farm out some of "their" brands to other manufacturers for actual production. This is a complex and secretive industry - what else is new :-). But especially in light of what you say about the NDA's, you are reinforcing my point that simple plagiarism by rebranding from one vendor to another is a bit of a stretch unless they do it by agreement. In particular, when you consider that a printer's key components are the head, the inks and the papers, the majors in the printer industry do have chemical engineers on staff who can at least direct the bespoke formulae their companies want to market, without necessarily manufacturing one iota of it.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Formula change for Epson Exhibition Fiber paper
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2016, 10:16:31 am »

The other thing we don't know though it could be found out is how much of this is covered by patents versus trade secrets.  I've looked at a lot of the Epson printer and ink patents over the past couple of years trying to better understand their technology.  I haven't looked at inkjet paper patents.
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