Epson Ink Skinflintery

[Del]

You could call this C'mon Epson Part 2:

As Ctein mentioned in his review of the P800, Epson provides cartridges that are meant largely to charge the system and not much more.  I hadn't realized just how close they are cutting it.  With my new out of the pallet/box P6000 I noticed that nearly all the LK ink was used compared to the other colors.  I had ordered a full set with the order but 4 were on back-order (2 are now on the way and fortunately LK is one of them). However the two magenta inks are still on back order and I didn't see them as available from several sources. 

After printing two head alignment prints, one Epson Test print, one 16x20 and three 11x17's, I got a low ink message. So I have a new printer, lots of paper, a partial set of ink and am dead in the water until the first of the week at least. Since they don't exactly give these printers away, much less the inks, it would be nice to get a full set of ink that would allow a person to print more than seven prints before running out of ink. Love the images so far, but C'mon Epson, get real.

[Jager]

Sorry to hear your P6000 was so parsimonious, Del.  I agree that the whole notion of "starter carts" for printers is nothing more than ill disguised greed.  If anything, a new printer should ship with more ink than standard, since the lines have to be charged.

That said, I did want to correct any misimpression that folks might have vis-a-vis the P800.  Yes, it ships with starter carts, short 15ml or thereabouts from the normal carts.  But even those starter carts will print many, many prints before needing replacement.  Of course, the P800 has much shorter lines than those in the larger format models, like your P6000.

Epson's skinflintery aside, I hope your experience with the P6000 is a good one!

[dgberg]

I have posted this before but here is what is really left in a P800 cart when it stops printing.
36ml pulled out of a 64ml P800 starter cart. By weight the cart had 70ml installed when full and 36ml when it stopped printing.
The other carts shown are refillables for 3880 and 9900 filled with K3 pulled from OEM carts that would no longer print.

[howardm]

that's just crazy.  The 'usual' amount of ink reamaining in a 3880 cart when the printer declares it fully empty is about 12-17 (I have no idea how jtoolman gets it down to 12, I dont think I've gotten below 17).

I'd love to know how much 'remains' in a *non* starter cart.  Just to see if there is a line of code in the P800 firmware that basically says:

if (starter cart) {
  empty_level = 3 * normal_empty_level
}

I'd buy a refillable cart set if I actually trusted the 3880 switching valve not to TU the day after I bought them.

What an unsatisfying situation.  Epson cheapness, black swap and the $200 roll adaptor vs. Canon's ridiculous margins and length limitation.  IMO, the amount Epson pulls from the starter cart is of so little value (percentage-wise), all it does is piss off customers.

Dan:  what is the source of those carts?  Are you pleased w/ them?

[deanwork]

All I can say is the mothers better not clog. "Starter" carts, what a joke. It's like they are going out of their way to piss people off.

that's just crazy.  The 'usual' amount of ink reamaining in a 3880 cart when the printer declares it fully empty is about 12-17 (I have no idea how jtoolman gets it down to 12, I dont think I've gotten below 17).

I'd love to know how much 'remains' in a *non* starter cart.  Just to see if there is a line of code in the P800 firmware that basically says:

if (starter cart) {
  empty_level = 3 * normal_empty_level
}

I'd buy a refillable cart set if I actually trusted the 3880 switching valve not to TU the day after I bought them.

What an unsatisfying situation.  Epson cheapness, black swap and the $200 roll adaptor vs. Canon's ridiculous margins and length limitation.  IMO, the amount Epson pulls from the starter cart is of so little value (percentage-wise), all it does is piss off customers.

Dan:  what is the source of those carts?  Are you pleased w/ them?

[dgberg]

that's just crazy.  The 'usual' amount of ink reamaining in a 3880 cart when the printer declares it fully empty is about 12-17 (I have no idea how jtoolman gets it down to 12, I dont think I've gotten below 17).

I'd love to know how much 'remains' in a *non* starter cart.  Just to see if there is a line of code in the P800 firmware that basically says:

if (starter cart) {
  empty_level = 3 * normal_empty_level
}

I'd buy a refillable cart set if I actually trusted the 3880 switching valve not to TU the day after I bought them.

What an unsatisfying situation.  Epson cheapness, black swap and the $200 roll adaptor vs. Canon's ridiculous margins and length limitation.  IMO, the amount Epson pulls from the starter cart is of so little value (percentage-wise), all it does is piss off customers.

Dan:  what is the source of those carts?  Are you pleased w/ them?

9900 refillables are from Ink Owl (I wanted 700ml size and Cone only had the 350's)
3880 refillable's are from Jon Cone.
I will have to note how much ink I pull out of the next empties from the 3880.

[howardm]

Actually I'm more interested in the 80mL P800 empties.  For me, the 3880 empties are a known quantity.

[dgberg]

Understand, will measure one of those when it stops printing.

[Peter Mellis]

In 2006 Epson settled a class action lawsuit that, as far as I can tell, dealt with this same issue: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/class-counsel-and-epson-america-announce-class-action-settlement-56411722.html Assuming that the Epson people read these sites (Dano?), someone should step up and speak to this issue.

[howardm]

I get that there has to be extra to prevent the suckage of air into the lines but I'd posit that 40% 'waste' is excessive considering the 'remedy' is, wait for it...............

buy more overpriced ink.

Sounds like a win for Epson and all they had to do was change 1 constant value in the software.

[Wayne Fox]

I wonder if Dan's experience is typical or if there perhaps was a cartridge error.    So far I've printed at least 30 or more 17x22's and 13x19's and all ink levels still show more than half. I'll have to get a syringe and check them when they run out.

As far as the OP, I'm curious if he stopped printing because of the Low Ink warning ... normally you can print a substantial number of prints even after the low ink warning shows up.

One thing Epson should consider even if they provide lower volume starter cartridges is providing a normal cartridge for the LK.  Because of the Mk/PK switch, the LK takes a double hit on the init fill, and LK for most types of work is by far the most used ink. When we sell a printer we always encourage them to buy an LK cartridge, knowing it will run out earlier than the others.

[Del]

Wayne, Thanks for the info on LK, I wondered why it showed so much less ink than the others after charging. Epson really ought to do as you suggest it seems.  I did stop printing because when it happened I didn't know when the back-ordered cart would arrive-but it appears that it will be in a day or two.  What happens if you run completely (or according to Epson) completely out of ink in the middle of printing a print?  I've always had a supply of carts on hand and never experienced this before. Does the print job finish without that color or does the job just freeze until you change the cart?  Thanks again.

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

What happens if you run completely (or according to Epson) completely out of ink in the middle of printing a print?  I've always had a supply of carts on hand and never experienced this before. Does the print job finish without that color or does the job just freeze until you change the cart?  Thanks again.

On my 3800 the job just halts until you replace the cartridge, and I've never been able to see on the finished print where the new cartridge started, even once when I had to wait three days before I could replace the old one.

The same seems true of the 3880, and I would certainly hope it would also be true of the P800.

[disneytoy]

The good and the bad of Epson...

In defense of Epson, the amount of ink used to charge the system, is still ink you will use. Other than the waste in the maintenance tank. But clearly the amount of ink left in carts that is "empty" is not defensible.

Max

[Alan Goldhammer]

I get that there has to be extra to prevent the suckage of air into the lines but I'd posit that 40% 'waste' is excessive considering the 'remedy' is, wait for it...............

I don't think so as the ink is contained in a 'plastic' pouch inside the cartridge such that there is no air in the ink supply itself.  I've looked at some of the patent literature and it's not clear how the ink control delivery system is set up via the software.  I assume that part of things is trade secret in terms of when the printer deems it to be empty.  I admit this all is not optimal but as a variety of people have noted ink usage is not the big cost factor compared to the cost of paper/canvas.  Also the printing hardware is relatively cost efficient since Epson relies on the Gillette razor blade economic model.

[howardm]

Perhaps not air but protecting the piezo head from overheating or shooting blanks etc etc.

I can't imagine they'd include a full 80mL LK ink.  It'd just spotlight the fact that you were getting 64ish mL
in all the others.

[MHMG]

IMO, the amount Epson pulls from the starter cart is of so little value (percentage-wise), all it does is piss off customers.

The value to Epson in doing this is not the cost of the ink Epson has withheld. It is the fact that that it pushes you into paying for the next full set of ink cartridges significantly sooner.

FWIW, Canon is playing similar game with some of its printer models. I just replaced a Chroma Optimizer cartridge in my Pro-1 printer that the printer software flagged as "low" and I should replace soon. I had printed a few prints past that point of notification, and the software ink level indicator was now perilously close to empty.  It hadn't yet stopped the printer from printing, but I figured I'd now go ahead and replace before starting a full 13x19" print. I've been weighing my cartridges lately, and when I pulled this particular cartridge, my weight data on this cartridge said I'd only consumed about 23ml of ink, but the specs say we are buying cartridges with 36ml inside. So, I broke open the cartridge, weighed the bag, then cut the bag open and emptied the residual ink, and then reweighed the fully empty bag. Sure enough, there was 13ml of CO still left in that bag before I pulled that cartridge, so I just wasted about $13 worth of ink by heeding the software warning indicator to install a new cartridge.  I probably could have continued to print several 13x19 inch prints. Who knew?...and buyer beware!!!

I really would like to give both Canon and Epson the benefit of the doubt on residual ink volumes left in the cartridges when they register empty in the printer driver software. I hope that it isn't the fact that these companies are trying to pull a fast one and shorting the specified ink volumes deliberately.  I rather hope it is just more likely the fact that their ink usage (i.e. drop counting) software algorithms aren't refined enough to fully track what ink has truly been consumed from each cartridge, and thus at times, perhaps even image content dependent, the algorithms miss an accurate ink volume consumption estimate by rather large margins. They certainly could be more honest simply by including an overage over and above the stated amount of ink contained in each cartridge in order to cover errors of their drop counting methodology, but come to think of it, most of the cartridge boxes fail to accurately state an ink volume amount. We have to dig through secondary published references to even find out what those claimed initial cartridge volumes are

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[howardm]

Yes, the whole point is to 'move cartridges'.  Mr. Gillette would be so proud

I would disagree re 'inaccuracies'.  They know exactly how big each dot is in picoliters and they know the number of times each color fires (possibly over multiple nozzles) so the counting shouldn't be too much of a stretch and not something that err's so drastically. 

I know there are previous threads but bottom line is that if the box says 80mL, you should get 80mL out *usable* output regardless of excess needed for head protection or counting inaccuracies.  Not doing that is the origin of class-action suits.  Of course, if they were forced to give everyone a full set of carts instead of $20 credit, it might actually impact them.

I always always leave the carts in till the printer just stops and if required, do the switch/swap if it wants a fuller cartridge to do a cleaning or ink swap.

[Wayne Fox]

What happens if you run completely (or according to Epson) completely out of ink in the middle of printing a print? Does the print job finish without that color or does the job just freeze until you change the cart?  Thanks again.

The printer will stop and wait for a new cartridge when it is considered "empty" by the printer.  In mid print this is rarely a problem, but that's assuming the new cartridge is installed right away. If left in the printer overnight or longer, the paper may show some warping or other issues.  ( I don't know that, just suspect it might be the case).

[MHMG]

I always always leave the carts in till the printer just stops and if required, do the switch/swap if it wants a fuller cartridge to do a cleaning or ink swap.

It's not that simple to follow your advice universally for all printers. Some printers will quit in the middle of a print while others will more aptly try to guess when they shouldn't attempt to proceed on your new print request. But it's even more complex than that. My Epson P600, for example, will not allow you to make a PK/MK ink swap if any single cartridge is reading low (not just the PK or MK cartridges). I had four cartridges reading low when I last tried to do a PK/MK ink swap. The printer refused to do that switch until  I put four new cartridges into the printer in order to accomplish the PK/MK swap when I needed it.  Now, here's the catch 22. The printer also does a fresh priming cycle for any new cartridge install, but it isn't just priming the one channel, so you are wasting inks in all cartridges when you put a new one in. That means if you now switch back to the older ones in order to try to use their remaining ink, you will waste yet more ink on the reinstall of the old cartridges, and then again on the re-reinstall of the newer set of cartridges.  No free lunch, and it's exceptionally difficult if not impossible for the enduser to know exactly when that "pointless point of no return" is for resinstalling a cartridge with some ink left in it. I suspect the "low ink" warning with yellow flag on the play is the manufacturer's best effort to detemine what that point of no return actually is for the "average" cartridge replacement condition.  I could be wrong

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com