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Author Topic: Has anyone reviewed the P9000 yet ?  (Read 3057 times)

larkis

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Has anyone reviewed the P9000 yet ?
« on: April 28, 2016, 11:42:08 am »

It seems that on google a press release or re posting of one constitutes a "review".

GrahamBy

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Re: Has anyone reviewed the P9000 yet ?
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2016, 11:48:36 am »

You know that Keith Cooper has reviewed the P7000? That should give you a good idea, I'd have thought.
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larkis

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Re: Has anyone reviewed the P9000 yet ?
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2016, 02:53:25 pm »

Thank you, I will try to look for that. Is there some official link for the review ?

JimGoshorn

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Landscapes

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Re: Has anyone reviewed the P9000 yet ?
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2016, 11:49:07 pm »

Review is here:

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/printer/epson_sc_p7000_review.html

I didn't read the whole review since its pretty long, but after I got to the part where he said the printer wasted 7ml of ink for the black ink swap, and then this caused some nozzles to drop and hence a clean cycle was needed, the conclusion was pretty obvious.  Unless you will only ever use one of the two blacks, going back and forth with all that wasted ink of cleaning cycles and ink swaps will really add up.  Its funny because I do believe that Epsons fail much more frequently than Canons, and yet, they continue to cripple their models.  I have read that the newer Canons might have an issue with fading, so this doesn't sound too good either, but from a usability point of view, I don't know why anyone would pick Epson over Canon.
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keithcooper

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Re: Has anyone reviewed the P9000 yet ?
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2016, 05:43:15 pm »

I didn't read the whole review since its pretty long, but after I got to the part where he said the printer wasted 7ml of ink for the black ink swap, and then this caused some nozzles to drop and hence a clean cycle was needed, the conclusion was pretty obvious.  Unless you will only ever use one of the two blacks, going back and forth with all that wasted ink of cleaning cycles and ink swaps will really add up.  Its funny because I do believe that Epsons fail much more frequently than Canons, and yet, they continue to cripple their models.  I have read that the newer Canons might have an issue with fading, so this doesn't sound too good either, but from a usability point of view, I don't know why anyone would pick Epson over Canon.

Might I respectfully suggest you read the whole review, since I wrote it and find conclusions far less obvious ;-)  Sorry if it's too long, but I won't write short reviews for products this complex ...

I pointed out that it was a demo printer shipped round in the back of a van to trade shows - the fact that I needed regular checks on black swap should bear this in mind.

In terms of printer 'usability' I find the P7000 an excellent printer to use - the levels of ink use are not excessive IMHO. When you get a printer this size you accept certain costs of use - such as ink swaps and for Canon large format, head replacement and 'invisible' cleaning cycles.

As to "I have read that the newer Canons might have an issue with fading" - can you point to a reliable source for this, and what your longevity criteria are?

BTW I currently own a Canon iPF8300, but would happily use a P9000 if needed.
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Landscapes

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Re: Has anyone reviewed the P9000 yet ?
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2016, 06:06:44 pm »

Might I respectfully suggest you read the whole review, since I wrote it and find conclusions far less obvious ;-)  Sorry if it's too long, but I won't write short reviews for products this complex ...

I pointed out that it was a demo printer shipped round in the back of a van to trade shows - the fact that I needed regular checks on black swap should bear this in mind.

In terms of printer 'usability' I find the P7000 an excellent printer to use - the levels of ink use are not excessive IMHO. When you get a printer this size you accept certain costs of use - such as ink swaps and for Canon large format, head replacement and 'invisible' cleaning cycles.

As to "I have read that the newer Canons might have an issue with fading" - can you point to a reliable source for this, and what your longevity criteria are?

BTW I currently own a Canon iPF8300, but would happily use a P9000 if needed.

You're absolutely right on all your points.  But even if its your specific printer that is having issues with switching blacks, even if it worked perfectly, the fact that so much ink still has to be wasted is just stupid in this age.  I know the Canon will do clean cycles sometimes (I have a 6400), but as long as you print every 2 days, which i make sure to do, I save that 12ml of ink that it would use to run a clean cycle since my image that uses 2ml to print is far better than wasting the 12ml.

I do also think that the heads you have to replace will end up cheaper than what the Epsons need.  I know some people have used their printer for 4 years with no need to replace the heads on an Epson, but many have needed to pay over 2k to do it after warranty ran out.  So with the Canon, if 2 new heads cost 1k every 2 years, its still better than the risk of maybe having to pay 2k and it still not solving the problem like on the Epsons.

Granted, this new printer has unknown reliability or long term issues, but just having to switch blacks makes it a no go for me.  I go back and forth between printing on matte canvas and luster paper quite a bit, so the wasted ink, plus extra on cleaning cycles which I'm sure will happen even on a production model that isn't moved will add up.

With regards to the color fading, I have no source, just what I read here.  I do hope the new Canon isn't any worse like the rumor, but even then, the results won't be horrible, and certainly not a big enough reason to sway the vote.  At this point in the printing world, I think usability and reliability of printers is the deciding factor.  Print longevity and print quality I think are good enough for all models that any small issues is just splitting hairs.  What is more important now is how much the printer costs, how much each print costs, and how much time and material costs are wasted when its not working right.
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keithcooper

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Re: Has anyone reviewed the P9000 yet ?
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2016, 07:03:01 pm »

All large format printers have appreciable non-upfront costs.

I try and emphasise this in my more general print related writing - personally I take it as just part of the cost of being able to make large format prints. It would be simpler if these costs were more transparent (that applies to all manufacturers) but they currently are what they are.

Without knowing Epson or Canon's engineering design criteria, I don't feel I could describe any aspect of their design decisions as 'stupid'. I might find some (such as the page length limit in the PRO-1000) curious, or unduly influenced by the dead hand of marketing, but modern inkjet printers are rather fine machines.

I've long felt that if the extra costs of heads/wasted ink make that much of a difference to someone, then they need to re-evaluate their business model.

For those of us that don't print that often, I prefer to think of owning and running a large format printer as not dissimilar to running a classic car ;-)

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Landscapes

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Re: Has anyone reviewed the P9000 yet ?
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2016, 08:09:23 pm »

Without knowing Epson or Canon's engineering design criteria, I don't feel I could describe any aspect of their design decisions as 'stupid'. I might find some (such as the page length limit in the PRO-1000) curious, or unduly influenced by the dead hand of marketing, but modern inkjet printers are rather fine machines.

I've long felt that if the extra costs of heads/wasted ink make that much of a difference to someone, then they need to re-evaluate their business model.

For those of us that don't print that often, I prefer to think of owning and running a large format printer as not dissimilar to running a classic car ;-)

With all due respect Keith, you are in an interesting position in that you have to work with both Epson and Canon in order to receive the units for testing, but at the same time trying to remain impartial in order to do a proper review.  But with this in mind, I don't think you're in a position to actually be too negative about any one of these machines and simply have to say the choice is curious.  I'm sure that some of the decision made come from marketing departments, and some decisions come from a cost perspective for both Epson and Canon, but many of us can see that in many industries, some companies fail to see the light, even when their competitor is eating their sales.  In this day and age with lots of options, there just isn't as much room to give the customer a crappy product and expect it to sell.  If there are good options out there, the power of social media and the web will of course very quickly allow people to share their experiences.

I would love to be selling prints that people pay me hundreds of dollars for, but unfortunately, this isn't my market.  I would love to say that these costs don't matter, but they do. When I look at buying a roll of canvas from Epson vs. from Simply Elegant, if that same roll is $20 cheaper for 40 feet, it means that I have an extra $20 in my pocket which I can use.  My customer, after the canvas is stretched and coated will not see the difference or care, but my wallet will.  If I waste 7ml of ink, this could be the equivalent of 2 16x24 prints.  Of course the paper does cost more than the ink, but I still prefer that ink going on paper than down the drain.  And of course, its not even down the drain, its into an expensive plastic box lined with cotton that I have to pay money for.  That is now about $60 I have to spend to replace it.

My point is that these little costs add up, and the time to switch over inks add up, and the time to print a nozzle check before each print (which you have to do with Epson) adds up, and then a cleaning cycle, this time adds up too, and of course all that ink.

You might say that if a person has to count these costs then it means that they have to re-evaluate their business model, but I say that Epson needs to re-evaluate their business model because ever since Canon came along, I'm sure they have lost lots of printer sales.  I've owned an Epson 4000 and 4800 before, and both clogged like crazy.  My Canon 6100 and 6400 have worked much better, but not trouble free.  Epson though lost out on the sale of 2 24 inch models because I knew I wouldn't go to Epson again, and after each new model, they still give me no reason to go back.

I'm very curious to see how the new Canons do with their one head design and if it will be more robust.  If the heads were cheaper to replace, replacing them wouldn't be a problem, but once again, a $500 expense is something that takes money away from somewhere else, so the less you spend here, the more you have elsewhere.
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keithcooper

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Re: Has anyone reviewed the P9000 yet ?
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2016, 10:20:38 am »

Ah, yes, I sometimes forget I'm on an international list...
Were I to say to someone at Canon in the UK that I found a particular design decision 'curious' they would know exactly what I was saying about it ;-)  When reading my reviews, please make some minor allowances for my Englishness ;-)

I do agree that the economics of making prints is a tricky area, but it still comes down to producing a product, knowing costs and seeing if the market will bear selling at an adequate profit - in this respect it's probably no different from making cuckoo clocks...
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dgberg

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Re: Has anyone reviewed the P9000 yet ?
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2016, 10:38:15 am »

In the past I spent a fair amount of time worrying about some of these same issues. (ink switching etc.)
The first thing I solved was ink costs. I presently have the inks from factory cost of .32 ml to about .08 per ml.
 By extracting inks from K3 OEM carts to fill my refillable carts. 9900 and 3880 as well as my Dye sub 4880.
Once this was solved my next move was marketing my wide format printing and mounting. My sales from commercial work is now approximately 90% of my output.
I recently finished a hospital project with a 130 24x36" and 16x20's gatorboard mounted canvas in metal frames.
I can tell you for a fact those little things like ink switches and maintenance tank costs get lost pretty quick in a $15,000 project.
Overhead is very important to control but the more you sell the faster the importance of those issues disappear.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 11:02:59 am by Dan Berg »
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GrahamBy

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Re: Has anyone reviewed the P9000 yet ?
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2016, 03:45:14 pm »

Ah, yes, I sometimes forget I'm on an international list...
Were I to say to someone at Canon in the UK that I found a particular design decision 'curious' they would know exactly what I was saying about it ;-)  When reading my reviews, please make some minor allowances for my Englishness ;-)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/10280244/Translation-table-explaining-the-truth-behind-British-politeness-becomes-internet-hit.html
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Benny Profane

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Re: Has anyone reviewed the P9000 yet ?
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2016, 05:39:59 pm »

All large format printers have appreciable non-upfront costs.

I try and emphasise this in my more general print related writing - personally I take it as just part of the cost of being able to make large format prints. It would be simpler if these costs were more transparent (that applies to all manufacturers) but they currently are what they are.

Without knowing Epson or Canon's engineering design criteria, I don't feel I could describe any aspect of their design decisions as 'stupid'. I might find some (such as the page length limit in the PRO-1000) curious, or unduly influenced by the dead hand of marketing, but modern inkjet printers are rather fine machines.

I've long felt that if the extra costs of heads/wasted ink make that much of a difference to someone, then they need to re-evaluate their business model.

For those of us that don't print that often, I prefer to think of owning and running a large format printer as not dissimilar to running a classic car ;-)

Oh, my.

Let's just suppose that some here aren't even operating a business, just a serious, expensive hobby, to start. But, if you insist on addressing the small business owners in the photography and limited edition printmaking field (because, high volume printmakers see little issues with reliability, and costs can be written off somewhat) then consider the low margin competitive climate of that world, and rethink that comment. They aren't driving Porsches, sir.

And classic car is quite a generic term. I mean, Triumphs were hard to keep running when they were new, but some old Chevy muscle cars just keep on rumbling, with minimal attention.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 06:20:16 pm by Benny Profane »
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keithcooper

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Re: Has anyone reviewed the P9000 yet ?
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2016, 08:13:38 pm »

Oh, my.

Let's just suppose that some here aren't even operating a business, just a serious, expensive hobby, to start. But, if you insist on addressing the small business owners in the photography and limited edition printmaking field (because, high volume printmakers see little issues with reliability, and costs can be written off somewhat) then consider the low margin competitive climate of that world, and rethink that comment. They aren't driving Porsches, sir.

And classic car is quite a generic term. I mean, Triumphs were hard to keep running when they were new, but some old Chevy muscle cars just keep on rumbling, with minimal attention.

I'm unsure of the point you were making?

If you are doing it for a hobby, then it's just costs of the hobby. You take that or choose something else.
If you are a small business and are in a low profit environment, then much like any other business, you really might want to consider whether it is worthwhile? The costs of current printing solutions are what they are.

Once again, I come from a land of Triumphs not Chevys, so owning a 'classic' car is a byword for ongoing expense... all too often found out the hard way by the unsuspecting.

No, I stand by my comments...
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JRSmit

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Re: Has anyone reviewed the P9000 yet ?
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2016, 05:03:30 am »

I run a print business and I use 2 SureColors, a 7000 and a 9000.
The ink cost of the mk/pk swap is not the cost to worry about.
Per print, the paper or canvas cost is much higher, as are the handling labor cost.

So waste of media or labor has a far greater cost impact.

The mk/pk swap can be planned, do runs with f.i. mk first and then swap to pk and do a pk run.
Just writing this post and reading this thread costs more than the cost of the ink needed for one ink-swap.

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dgberg

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Re: Has anyone reviewed the P9000 yet ?
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2016, 07:12:26 am »

The easy route is a second printer.
I use my P800 for most PK printing and even though it is only 17" wide it covers at least 95% of my PK paper prints.
I still have a 700ml PK cart on my 9900 showing 15% and it is 5 years old. Just never gets used.
Yes I realize as a hobby you look at it totally different then say JRSmit or myself.
Love my Epson's despite all the little things that can drive one crazy.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 07:17:13 am by Dan Berg »
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keithcooper

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Re: Has anyone reviewed the P9000 yet ?
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2016, 08:15:19 am »

The easy route is a second printer.
I use my P800 for most PK printing and even though it is only 17" wide it covers at least 95% of my PK paper prints.
I still have a 700ml PK cart on my 9900 showing 15% and it is 5 years old. Just never gets used.
Yes I realize as a hobby you look at it totally different then say JRSmit or myself.
Love my Epson's despite all the little things that can drive one crazy.

Thanks Dan, you make an important distinction - although I produce large prints as part of our photography business, the volumes are low and probably put my usage much closer to the hobby end of the market. My own costs are considerably influenced by all the paper testing and the like that I do. The iPF8300 I have here has more than paid for itself, but many printer costs (and much of my time) come out of our marketing budget. It's not a major 'profit centre' for the business, but was never intended as so.

Large format printers are designed and built for markets that use them heavily - the more you use them the better value they are. They are simply not designed for a light use hobby market, that doesn't mean we won't see improvements in their ability to cope with light use, but they will not be 'headline' features.

The manufacturers do take some note of forums like this and reviews of the sort that Mark S and myself write, but printing the odd photo is an outlier in their LFP product design parameters.

Small businesses in a cost sensitive market need a particularly strong grasp of their true costs, and I'm afraid that many of the 'I want to sell my prints' queries I receive, suggest a lack of forethought in this area.
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