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Author Topic: Honoring Women in Photography  (Read 16141 times)

Ray

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Re: Honoring Women in Photography
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2016, 10:21:42 am »

Oh, dear! Someone better hurry and notify Howard Schatz that Ray is coming after him next ;)

Don't be silly!
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Honoring Women in Photography
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2016, 11:28:18 am »

James Clark

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Re: Honoring Women in Photography
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2016, 12:37:34 pm »

It would be great if that would be followed by no more (silly) comments ;)

Darr definitely has a point.   While I wouldn't presume to comment on his actual intent, the particular wording Kevin used (that Darr quoted) was pretty awkward, and I can see how it would betray an attitude that could be found offensive.   Camp had it right in his thread - it's a little patronizing.
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jwstl

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Re: Honoring Women in Photography
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2016, 12:46:07 pm »

Darr definitely has a point.   While I wouldn't presume to comment on his actual intent, the particular wording Kevin used (that Darr quoted) was pretty awkward, and I can see how it would betray an attitude that could be found offensive.   Camp had it right in his thread - it's a little patronizing.

I agree. I found the images inspiring and the biographies interesting and am thankful for the article. However, while I know Kevin had the best of intentions, I find some of the text to be condescending toward the subjects he is honoring.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Honoring Women in Photography
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2016, 12:57:40 pm »

... could be found offensive...

There is absolutely nothing in this world that someone, somewhere won't find offensive, let alone PC nuts.

James Clark

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Re: Honoring Women in Photography
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2016, 01:35:23 pm »

There is absolutely nothing in this world that someone, somewhere won't find offensive, let alone PC nuts.

Absolutely true. Nevertheless, "photography got easier so women got more involved" isn't an example of that phenomenon. 
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Honoring Women in Photography
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2016, 02:21:53 pm »

Absolutely true. Nevertheless, "photography got easier so women got more involved" isn't an example of that phenomenon. 

And which part of that statement is offensive and why? Actually, Kevin used a neutral term "anyone," not "women," but I'll grant you that your inference is possible, for the sake of the argument. Photography has become easier for everyone, men or women, black or white, yellow or brown, so should everyone who entered the field in the digital era be offended by that statement? The fact that, historically, there were (some) women working as photographers when it was really, really hard (physically, chemically, time, etc.) does not negate the fact that today there are much more women (and other categories) who are  photographers. What's so offensive about that?

James Clark

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Re: Honoring Women in Photography
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2016, 03:40:40 pm »

And which part of that statement is offensive and why? Actually, Kevin used a neutral term "anyone," not "women," but I'll grant you that your inference is possible, for the sake of the argument. Photography has become easier for everyone, men or women, black or white, yellow or brown, so should everyone who entered the field in the digital era be offended by that statement? The fact that, historically, there were (some) women working as photographers when it was really, really hard (physically, chemically, time, etc.) does not negate the fact that today there are much more women (and other categories) who are  photographers. What's so offensive about that?

I'm not that guy that is going to parse every word and look for a reason to be offended about something - as you said, there's far more than enough of that going on already.  What I think we have here is largely a case of good intent that was worded in a clunky manner, but what's important to understand is that to some people, the fact that the clunky phrasing is the default *is* the problem.  True - Kevin said "anyone," not "women," but I'm going to assume that when contrasting the "male dominated" field of the 70s/80s/90s with a field that has "changed," and when the article is clearly *about* women, the change he is referring to is fairly clear, the use of "anyone" notwithstanding.

Pair that with the suggestion that the field changed (i.e. women became more involved) because photography got "a lot" easier, and you can certainly see why someone might draw the conclusion that the author believes women were less capable of being successful when the discipline was more difficult, and thats a bad assertion.  (In addition to being suspect on the surface, as others have pointed out, I'm not sure it's even factually correct to state that men dominated the field -certainly women have been prominent in the field, if not dominant, for decades.)

As a practical matter, nothing I've seen from Kevin here (or anywhere) would imply that he views women as "second-class" photographers, and please understand that I'm not saying that.  I think that it's far more likely that in trying to find and write a intro to his article, Kevin chose some unfortunate verbiage and created a contrast he did not really intend to.   Certainly I wouldn't "pull *my* subscription" over such a thing, but then again I'm not of a class that sees slights that are woven into the fabric of society regularly directed at me.

Bottom line - I think Kevin intended to highlight some women that are doing great work.  I think in the process of doing so, he inadvertently illustrated a part of a society that still sometimes views women's accomplishments through a lens (sorry :)  ) of exceptional by virtue of being from women (or despite being from women, if I am being less charitable), as opposed to simply being exceptional.  Do I think Kevin believes that?  No.  Do I understand why Darr could draw the conclusion? Yes.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 04:54:33 pm by James Clark »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Honoring Women in Photography
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2016, 04:09:28 pm »

... someone might draw the conclusion that the author believes women were less capable of being successful when the discipline was more difficult...

You phrased it in a slightly twisted manner: I do not think Kevin (or I) implied "less capable" or "less successful," but simply "less involved." As I pointed out (and others), throughout history, we did have highly successful women photographers. So, saying that women were less involved when the discipline was more difficult simply reflects the reality of the past. Those highly successful women photographers serve more as the exception that proves the rule. There are many more fields of activity were women were less historically involved or that were male-dominated, and nothing offensive about that either, a simple fact of life and the times. Were there women blacksmiths in the past (or today)? Sure. Was there a 50/50 split among blacksmiths? Highly doubtful. Replace blacksmith requirements of the past with, say, a 3-D printer of today, and there is no reason why the ratio couldn't be 50/50. Simple statistical probability, nothing offensive about it.

James Clark

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Re: Honoring Women in Photography
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2016, 05:07:13 pm »

You phrased it in a slightly twisted manner: I do not think Kevin (or I) implied "less capable" or "less successful," but simply "less involved."

Well, no.  That's what *should* have been said.  What was done, in actuality, was that a direct comparison was drawn between men excelling when the field was implicitly harder, and women becoming more successful when it got *easier."  There's really no debating that, as the text is quite clear.

However, as I said, I believe it to be clumsy writing, not intentionally sexist writing. (And I'm sympathetic.   In my academic days I was a pretty good writer - but intros were so hard that I'd almost invariably write the whole of my text then go back and try, usually unsuccessfully, to craft a good opening.)

My only point is that I can see why Darr might take offense to it, and that doing so isn't an example of PC run amok.   I mean, no one is demanding that Kevin issue future trigger warnings or make LuLa a "safe space" ;)

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Rob C

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Re: Honoring Women in Photography
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2016, 05:21:50 pm »

That pin has more effing angels/demons dancing on it than I would ever have thought possible.

Heysoos! as they say here, but spell differently; but I don't want to offend, so I shall fudge the issue.

Rob C

Kevin Raber

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Re: Honoring Women in Photography
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2016, 05:39:30 pm »

Enough, while I had all great intentions, I can see why some readers read into the text the way they did.  For anyone who has misunderstood my intentions I apologize.  If I didn't make it clear, then I will here.  The article was about honoring women and what they have done in photography, as well as some who have been a major part of this site as contributors and instructors.   Nothing but the utmost respect was being implied.  I did use the word "anyone" in my text when referring to photography becoming easier since digital.  All of us have benefited from this revolution.  Look, I am not a writer by trade and thus sometimes don't craft my words as elegantly as some could.  But, I think if you read the article, you will see that all I wanted to do was recognize the women who have been part of Luminous-Landscape as well those that have influenced me early on.

I hope you enjoy Part that will be published tomorrow.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 05:44:25 pm by Kevin Raber »
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James Clark

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Re: Honoring Women in Photography
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2016, 05:58:02 pm »

Enough, while I had all great intentions, I can see why some readers read into the text the way they did.  For anyone who has misunderstood my intentions I apologize.  If I didn't make it clear, then I will here.  The article was about honoring women and what they have done in photography, as well as some who have been a major part of this site as contributors and instructors.   Nothing but the utmost respect was being implied.  I did use the word "anyone" in my text when referring to photography becoming easier since digital.  All of us have benefited from this revolution.  Look, I am not a writer by trade and thus sometimes don't craft my words as elegantly as some could.  But, I think if you read the article, you will see that all I wanted to do was recognize the women who have been part of Luminous-Landscape as well those that have influenced me early on.

I hope you enjoy Part that will be published tomorrow.

Your apology isn't mine to accept (though I hope Darr will acknowledge it), but I certainly think it's good of you, and I hope you don't feel as if I was attacking or otherwise calling you sexist or offensive toward women.  I loved the work the article featured and I'm sure part 2 will feature more great work by great photographers who happen to be female ;)
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Patricia Sheley

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Re: Honoring Women in Photography
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2016, 06:14:00 pm »

I find myself viewing these bickering matches with more and more distaste as I age (mellow?). I do know that as often as I am tempted to reply with real world experience I find it is just not worth the additional misunderstandings and misinterpretations it seems guaranteed to generate. But this one, " a bunch of old, very old men" keeps creeping into to my day since it appeared this morning.

All I know for sure is that I worked side by side with some amazing, little celebrated, hard working Navy photojournalists during the Vietnam era and not once did I feel looked down at for being a woman, or for that matter, celebrated because of that inconvenient truth. I did my job. I lost dear friends, the caverns remain to this day which I try really really hard to fill with seeing through the eyes they helped me hone. Celebrate the the fact that you have enough complaints that you somehow won the lottery and still have the gift of life dammit!
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James Clark

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Re: Honoring Women in Photography
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2016, 07:07:34 pm »

No bickering here.  I was having what I thought was an interesting exchange with Slobodon about the perceptions certain phrasing can generate and trying to explain why another member here might have seen things differently.   Just trying to bridge a little gap, with no judgment laid down on anyone - Kevin included. 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 07:23:06 pm by James Clark »
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John Camp

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Re: Honoring Women in Photography
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2016, 07:15:46 pm »

Ray, I gotta tell you, you made me laugh. You are obviously an intelligent and perceptive guy who has some very interesting ideas, but I think you sorta stepped on your dick on this one (assuming that Ray isn't short for Ray-Anne, or something.) Why shouldn't she take a photo of anything she wants to take a photo of? People spend lifetimes taking pictures of bugs, and good on them. Cindy Sherman became famous taking pictures of herself pretending to be somebody else, and IMHO that's a good thing. Robert Mapplethorpe took a photo of himself with a bullwhip inserted in an untoward place, and the photo's in museums. So...lay down for a while with a cool damp cloth on your forehead, and these strange thoughts will go away.
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Ray

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Re: Honoring Women in Photography
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2016, 07:43:14 pm »

Why? Howard is certainly known for photographing women "dressed inappropriately for the environment."  ;)

Sorry! I don't get it. Posing in the nude is not inappropriate, unless one is a prude, which I'm not. However, walking through dense scrubland or a rainforest, whilst nude, could be considered inappropriate because one would be exposed to scratches from thorns and insect bites.

Also, any tigers in the vicinity might consider the sight of bare female flesh a great delicacy.  ;)
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Ray

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Re: Honoring Women in Photography
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2016, 07:52:55 pm »

Why shouldn't she take a photo of anything she wants to take a photo of? People spend lifetimes taking pictures of bugs, and good on them.....

C'mon now, John. I'm not criticising her right to take the photo. It just strikes me a bit odd and a bit ridiculous to be dressed that way in a rugged, natural environment. That's the impression I got. Is it not perfectly natural for someone to verbalize an impression?

Perhaps such an impression comes more naturally to me than to others because I've spent a lot of time trekking in rugged terrain over the years.
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Schewe

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Re: Honoring Women in Photography
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2016, 12:16:42 am »

It just strikes me a bit odd and a bit ridiculous to be dressed that way in a rugged, natural environment.

So, you don't see the juxtaposition of a lovely girl in a harsh environment? That was her friggin' point!!!!

I think Patricia has it right...a bunch of old (likely white) guys passing judgement on the younger generation...boy, it sucks being old but it's better than the alternative...
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: Honoring Women in Photography
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2016, 12:18:33 am »

Ray,

I think you need to see more of her work before you can make a sensible comment about it. This one photo isn't enough of a sample.

For $6 you could read the entire article.
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-Eric Myrvaagnes (visit my website: http://myrvaagnes.com)
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