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Author Topic: A Leica S Type Hasselblad camera?  (Read 10756 times)

hasselbladfan

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A Leica S Type Hasselblad camera?
« on: April 27, 2016, 08:35:31 am »

Extract from an interview with Hasselblad CEO Oosting (ePHOTOzine April 7, 2016):

You spoke about broadening the appeal of Hasselblad ... do you plan to release something lower down in the market?

What would fit is something aimed at the prosumer .... Part of this audience already buys into Leica and our first step would be to look at this area, prices and portability.

DID  ANYBODY  HEAR  SOMETHING  MORE  ABOUT  SUCH  A  LEICA S  TYPE  HASSELBLAD  CAMERA?
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Doug Peterson

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Re: A Leica S Type Hasselblad camera?
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2016, 08:46:40 am »

I'll go on record as saying I think the chances of this are slim to none.

eronald

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Re: A Leica S Type Hasselblad camera?
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2016, 08:59:35 am »

I'll go on record as saying I think the chances of this are slim to none.

Haselblad have a lot of marketing problems, and the biggest is they don't know who they are. Are they Ferrari-red luxury items? Are they useful tools for breadwinners? Are they sold by the mothership, or via dealers?

And now they want to go prosumer? Hey guys, this is is full-blown multiple personality disorder :)

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 10:25:23 am by eronald »
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Theodoros

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Re: A Leica S Type Hasselblad camera?
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2016, 01:04:51 pm »

Extract from an interview with Hasselblad CEO Oosting (ePHOTOzine April 7, 2016):

You spoke about broadening the appeal of Hasselblad ... do you plan to release something lower down in the market?

What would fit is something aimed at the prosumer .... Part of this audience already buys into Leica and our first step would be to look at this area, prices and portability.

DID  ANYBODY  HEAR  SOMETHING  MORE  ABOUT  SUCH  A  LEICA S  TYPE  HASSELBLAD  CAMERA?

Actually there's more that he said, with phrases like: "Portability will be the key factor" (meaning that the camera is coming), "it will bring more people to MF" (meaning that it is entry level & it's MF) & "How and which way it will be portable, is yet to be announced" (meaning that the product is ready and only announcement remains).

Practically it's an announcement (especially as it is confirmed by the CEO of the company), my guess goes for a 33x44 sensor (so that Hasselblad uses an already existing sensor & electronics as to keep costs to the minimum), it is mirror box but without a removable MFDB and the mirror box is for OVF/sensor size up to 33x44mm (so that it is a direct alternative to the Leica-S), it has video (again like the Leica S 007) and it takes a new series of lenses, but with the same interface as the H-series so that if one plans a future update, will be able to invest on the H lenses and use them via an adapter... (again like the Leica -S). I don't see anything else that would keep in line with the CEO's own statements about the specifications of the product... My direct bet would go for a reframed H6D-50 priced around 12K Euros (inc. VAT)... in a few months we will know, but all sines (out of the CEO's own words) lead to that being the most possible scenario...
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JV

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Re: A Leica S Type Hasselblad camera?
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2016, 07:17:04 pm »

Perhaps something like the Leica SL? which is 35mm and has a new lens mount but is (or better will be) able to take a/o S-lenses using an adapter.

My guess would also be that the chances of an entirely new MF body are indeed very slim...
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 07:29:35 pm by JV »
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Christoph B.

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Re: A Leica S Type Hasselblad camera?
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2016, 03:37:23 am »

Actually there's more that he said, with phrases like: "Portability will be the key factor" (meaning that the camera is coming), "it will bring more people to MF" (meaning that it is entry level & it's MF) & "How and which way it will be portable, is yet to be announced" (meaning that the product is ready and only announcement remains).

Practically it's an announcement (especially as it is confirmed by the CEO of the company), my guess goes for a 33x44 sensor (so that Hasselblad uses an already existing sensor & electronics as to keep costs to the minimum), it is mirror box but without a removable MFDB and the mirror box is for OVF/sensor size up to 33x44mm (so that it is a direct alternative to the Leica-S), it has video (again like the Leica S 007) and it takes a new series of lenses, but with the same interface as the H-series so that if one plans a future update, will be able to invest on the H lenses and use them via an adapter... (again like the Leica -S). I don't see anything else that would keep in line with the CEO's own statements about the specifications of the product... My direct bet would go for a reframed H6D-50 priced around 12K Euros (inc. VAT)... in a few months we will know, but all sines (out of the CEO's own words) lead to that being the most possible scenario...

It wouldn't make much sense to get into the 'compact' medium format sector, there isn't that much demand and what little demand there is has already been filled by Pentax on the low-end and Leica on the high-end. If Hasselblad were to position themselves in-between that would sound nice but who would buy it? Realistically I mean. Those that look for a low price already have the Pentax645Z (and perhaps soon a new Pentax with a new sensor?) with their lens lineup already in place. Who would buy such a Hasselblad? And would they be forced to buy Hasselblad-lenses too? Wouldn't that make the whole cheap-entry-system idea completely useless? And if not - a new cheap lens lineup? Or an existing 3rd party option to have the Lunar/Sony debacle all over again?

I doubt they'll do that and I think you are twisting his words to fit your wishes. He could easily be talking about a mirrorless solution similar to the Hasselblad SWC system - which is after all very portable but with the addition of live-view much more comfortable to use.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: A Leica S Type Hasselblad camera?
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2016, 05:17:25 am »

Hi,

Well, I don't think the Biogon plays well modern sensors, but an SWC type camera with EVF would be attractive and could be used with a wide variety of lenses.

I don't know if Hasselblad would be ready to take the step.

Best regards
Erik

It wouldn't make much sense to get into the 'compact' medium format sector, there isn't that much demand and what little demand there is has already been filled by Pentax on the low-end and Leica on the high-end. If Hasselblad were to position themselves in-between that would sound nice but who would buy it? Realistically I mean. Those that look for a low price already have the Pentax645Z (and perhaps soon a new Pentax with a new sensor?) with their lens lineup already in place. Who would buy such a Hasselblad? And would they be forced to buy Hasselblad-lenses too? Wouldn't that make the whole cheap-entry-system idea completely useless? And if not - a new cheap lens lineup? Or an existing 3rd party option to have the Lunar/Sony debacle all over again?

I doubt they'll do that and I think you are twisting his words to fit your wishes. He could easily be talking about a mirrorless solution similar to the Hasselblad SWC system - which is after all very portable but with the addition of live-view much more comfortable to use.
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Theodoros

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Re: A Leica S Type Hasselblad camera?
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2016, 06:00:42 am »

It wouldn't make much sense to get into the 'compact' medium format sector, there isn't that much demand and what little demand there is has already been filled by Pentax on the low-end and Leica on the high-end. If Hasselblad were to position themselves in-between that would sound nice but who would buy it? Realistically I mean. Those that look for a low price already have the Pentax645Z (and perhaps soon a new Pentax with a new sensor?) with their lens lineup already in place. Who would buy such a Hasselblad? And would they be forced to buy Hasselblad-lenses too? Wouldn't that make the whole cheap-entry-system idea completely useless? And if not - a new cheap lens lineup? Or an existing 3rd party option to have the Lunar/Sony debacle all over again?



MO is that there is much sense into entering the "compact" (as you call it) DSLR market... Hasselblad has already a very wide base of thousands of customers that work with the H system all over the world, to them, a compact 44x33 DSLR will come as a blessing since they can both modernise their existing system and finance the new camera by selling their DSLR gear (which for cases other than sports would then be completely useless) altogether. Another factor that is often underestimated is the "shrinkage of gear" factor (using as little equipment as possible, yet improving quality), which to pros is very important. If one adds to the above the new comers to will cause to Hasselblad, it is the most logical thing to do.


I doubt they'll do that and I think you are twisting his words to fit your wishes. He could easily be talking about a mirrorless solution similar to the Hasselblad SWC system - which is after all very portable but with the addition of live-view much more comfortable to use.

"twisting his words"?  ...in what way and how do I do that? The man speaks good English and is specific on his target group with phrases like "Leica S-section", "upper class DSLR users", "portable-entry level MF (to the H-system)" and on the Lula interview he insisted on the "greatness of MF optical viewfinder".  Where do you see me twisting his words? To the contradict... where have you see him talking about a "mirrorless" or the SWC, or LV?  What leads you as to come to that conclusion?
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Christoph B.

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Re: A Leica S Type Hasselblad camera?
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2016, 06:27:31 am »

Hi,

Well, I don't think the Biogon plays well modern sensors, but an SWC type camera with EVF would be attractive and could be used with a wide variety of lenses.

I don't know if Hasselblad would be ready to take the step.

Best regards
Erik

Quite right, I wasn't thinking of using the old lenses anyway - but if Hasselblad was thinking of a compact medium format camera that would be a start - new lenses etc would be necessary.
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Christoph B.

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Re: A Leica S Type Hasselblad camera?
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2016, 06:56:22 am »



MO is that there is much sense into entering the "compact" (as you call it) DSLR market... Hasselblad has already a very wide base of thousands of customers that work with the H system all over the world, to them, a compact 44x33 DSLR will come as a blessing since they can both modernise their existing system and finance the new camera by selling their DSLR gear (which for cases other than sports would then be completely useless) altogether. Another factor that is often underestimated is the "shrinkage of gear" factor (using as little equipment as possible, yet improving quality), which to pros is very important. If one adds to the above the new comers to will cause to Hasselblad, it is the most logical thing to do.

"twisting his words"?  ...in what way and how do I do that? The man speaks good English and is specific on his target group with phrases like "Leica S-section", "upper class DSLR users", "portable-entry level MF (to the H-system)" and on the Lula interview he insisted on the "greatness of MF optical viewfinder".  Where do you see me twisting his words? To the contradict... where have you see him talking about a "mirrorless" or the SWC, or LV?  What leads you as to come to that conclusion?

Simply put: no.

If you already own the H system - why would you buy something you can't use with it? A compact medium format system would only make sense if the camera and the lenses are compact. But if you use the same lenses and you only have a small (very small) difference between the weight of a compact camera and the H6D - well why would you get a compact camera with all its drawbacks? It won't be weather sealed anyway, since the lenses aren't weather sealed.
It won't have faster AF or better ISO performance than the H camera and I think pros would rather invest in the new H6 with a 100mpx back by using the trade-in option.

In the whole interview he never said the Hasselblad he's thinking of is a compact Leica-S type. He said that its portability etc are factors they consider - that doesn't mean it'll be a carbon copy. Besides with 4*x3* sensors the viewfinder 'greatness' simply isn't really there anymore. So I doubt he was talking about creating a compact small medium format camera.


Leica S:

160 x 80 x 120 mm (without lens)
1.26 kg (without battery, without lens)

H6D:

153 x 131 x 205 mm (complete camera with HC 80mm f/2.8 lens)
2130 g (with battery, card, and HC 80mm f/2.8 lens)

I really don't see the big difference here in weight/portability when it comes to the body and if Hasselblad plans on using their pre-existing lens lineup the difference will be pretty much 0.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: A Leica S Type Hasselblad camera?
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2016, 07:16:44 am »

Theo: you have made many predictions about Hasselblad, Leica, Phase, and Sinar. Maybe you could start a thread and list specific predictions you're making for each, so that we can all track how many of them come true. One of my favorite bloggers Robert Cringely does this every year.

landscapephoto

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Re: A Leica S Type Hasselblad camera?
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2016, 07:22:07 am »

There have been numerous interviews of Perry Oosting, you will find them on youtube. In all of them, he hints at a new MF camera which would:
-be more compact and light than the H6
-directed at enthusiasts at a slightly lower price point than the H6
-built in Sweden.

That sounds interesting, but that could be plenty of things, for example something resembling the Leica Q or Sony RX-1. And we won't find out, because it is quite clear that Perry Oosting is only telling us what he wants us to know and nothing more.
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hasselbladfan

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Re: A Leica S Type Hasselblad camera?
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2016, 07:29:35 am »

Actually there's more that he said, with phrases like: "Portability will be the key factor", "it will bring more people to MF". Practically it's an announcement (especially as it is confirmed by the CEO of the company), my guess goes for a 33x44 sensor. ... My direct bet would go for a reframed H6D-50 ... in a few months we will know ...

Agree, it is an announcement. I don't think it will be a reframed H6D50. This would not improve the portability.

I would love a Mamiya 7 type (with or without an EVP), using the existing H lenses.

 
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erlingmmoe

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Re: A Leica S Type Hasselblad camera?
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2016, 07:35:18 am »

...or how about a Leica/Hasselblad merger? Leica has shown how Hasselblad lenses can be used on the S, the other way around might also work for the smaller sensors. Hasselblad would get strong distribution from the Leicashops, they would together be stronger towards the sensor manufacturers.... Well, some engineering would have to be done.
But I think this pond is too small for all the MF companies copying each other's form factors, and maintaining special PP SW for each brand.
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eronald

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Re: A Leica S Type Hasselblad camera?
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2016, 07:51:20 am »

Actually, this sounds like a way to get rid of price bloat. Canon did the same with the 5D. One announces a "prosumer model" priced at 50% of the "pro" model, tells everybody it is "prosumer", but then puts in all the newest latest features, and some years later you have successfully lowered your prices by 50%, reached a new audience, and all this without destroying your brand.

Edmund

There have been numerous interviews of Perry Oosting, you will find them on youtube. In all of them, he hints at a new MF camera which would:
-be more compact and light than the H6
-directed at enthusiasts at a slightly lower price point than the H6
-built in Sweden.

That sounds interesting, but that could be plenty of things, for example something resembling the Leica Q or Sony RX-1. And we won't find out, because it is quite clear that Perry Oosting is only telling us what he wants us to know and nothing more.
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Theodoros

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Re: A Leica S Type Hasselblad camera?
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2016, 09:11:34 am »

Agree, it is an announcement. I don't think it will be a reframed H6D50. This would not improve the portability.

Reframing is exactly what causes portability and reduction in cost. If the H6D is reframed so that the sensor/electronics are housed in the camera body (as it is with the Leica S) and then a dedicated mirrorbox & viewfinder for 33x44mm sensor is used (again like it is with the Leica S and its similar size 30x45 sensor), the result would be an MF DSLR that would resemble Leica S dimensions but at a significant reduction of costs than the H6D that will be caused by the luck of MFDB frame, the smaller VF & mirror box and  the luck of modularity... Costs can further benefit by using already existing electronics and sensor... The compatibility with the existing series of H lenses, can then be secured by using a "dummy" adapter...

I would love a Mamiya 7 type (with or without an EVP), using the existing H lenses.

I'm sure that if he aimed for that kind of camera, he would have mentioned the Mamiya 7 as an example... But Mr. Ooosting mentioned the Leica S by name and also mentioned the customers of it as being the target group... "part of this market already buys into Leica S and this is what should attract our interest" he said... remember?
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hasselbladfan

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Re: A Leica S Type Hasselblad camera?
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2016, 11:52:49 am »

I'm sure that if he aimed for that kind of camera, he would have mentioned the Mamiya 7 as an example... But Mr. Ooosting mentioned the Leica S by name and also mentioned the customers of it as being the target group... "part of this market already buys into Leica S and this is what should attract our interest" he said... remember?

Fully agree, this is what he said.

But if he wants to push portability a step further a Mamiya 7 would be the ultimate portability IMHO. Not sure how many current Leica S users would jump on the train and sell their very expensive gear and buy new lenses / body. A Mamiya 7 type with H lenses would have the sales boost the Leica SL is having now. You can keep your H6 for studio and the new guy for travel.

I am not sure if I am awake or still dreaming. :)
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JV

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Re: A Leica S Type Hasselblad camera?
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2016, 04:57:31 pm »

Fully agree, this is what he said.

But if he wants to push portability a step further a Mamiya 7 would be the ultimate portability IMHO. Not sure how many current Leica S users would jump on the train and sell their very expensive gear and buy new lenses / body. A Mamiya 7 type with H lenses would have the sales boost the Leica SL is having now. You can keep your H6 for studio and the new guy for travel.

I am not sure if I am awake or still dreaming. :)

Portability with H-lenses...? We probably have different ideas about portability...

IMHO if you are talking about portability you are necessarily talking about m43 or APS-C or fixed lens cameras like the Leica Q or the Sony RX1RII.  Everything else remains heavy (including FF mirrorless). 

The Leica SL is also not exactly the king of portability with the 2 zoom lenses weighing 1.2KG and 1.7KG...   That being said it is a very appealing camera IMO.

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Jager

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Re: A Leica S Type Hasselblad camera?
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2016, 06:27:23 am »

Assuming Hasselblad introduces a new "entry level" medium format camera utilizing the same 33x44 sensor currently in the H5D, H6D, and CFV-50c, at a price point that "attracts new users," their first question is how to do so without cannibalizing sales on those other platforms.  You want to give new users a taste of the quality the larger format is famous for, but not such a flexible system that users - both new and old - can conclude that it mostly does everything they need.

And the R&D and pre-prod fab expenses must be kept tightly in check.

With that as the brief, what would make sense to me is a fixed lens rangefinder.

eronald

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Re: A Leica S Type Hasselblad camera?
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2016, 06:54:27 am »

Can someone explain the target buyers of this monstrosity?

Edmund

Portability with H-lenses...? We probably have different ideas about portability...

IMHO if you are talking about portability you are necessarily talking about m43 or APS-C or fixed lens cameras like the Leica Q or the Sony RX1RII.  Everything else remains heavy (including FF mirrorless). 

The Leica SL is also not exactly the king of portability with the 2 zoom lenses weighing 1.2KG and 1.7KG...   That being said it is a very appealing camera IMO.
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