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Author Topic: Phase One XF-100 initial/rolling impressions  (Read 18228 times)

william

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Re: Phase One XF-100 initial/rolling impressions
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2016, 10:03:52 am »

I'm not following the logic regarding the "XF is too loud/Phase should go mirrorless" conversation.

The XF shutter and mirror sounds like what it is: an SLR camera with an optical viewfinder.   If one wants a different sound or different functionality than an optical finder SLR, wouldn't that just be a reason to use something other than the XF rather than a reason for Phase to make the XF into a mirrorless camera?
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One XF-100 initial/rolling impressions
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2016, 11:00:05 am »

I'm not following the logic regarding the "XF is too loud/Phase should go mirrorless" conversation.

The XF shutter and mirror sounds like what it is: an SLR camera with an optical viewfinder.   If one wants a different sound or different functionality than an optical finder SLR, wouldn't that just be a reason to use something other than the XF rather than a reason for Phase to make the XF into a mirrorless camera?

If you want to know how slow you can handhold a body you should do actual tests at different shutter speeds to see how slow you can handhold that body. You should not assume the sound of the mirror is more than loosely correlated. In my testing the XF performs better in this regard than other systems I've tested whose mirrors are less *loud* (but actually impact the image more).

A lot of effort went into the specific timing, dampening (an secondary motor catches and decelerates the mirror, unlike the previous DF+), location and design of the mechanisms, and the timing of the mirror, electronic first curtain shutter (only available on the IQ3 100mp) and leaf shutter, to ensure it has the least possible impact on the actual image.

Especially if your judgement is based on a mid-sized print (e.g. 11x14) you can hand hold the XF at surprisingly slow speeds. If you judge based on a 100% on-screen only, and then compare to, for instance, a Leica M8 (which has 10% as much resolution... 10mp instead of 100mp) you'll come to very errant conclusions.

Of course all of this is different than concerns about the mirror/shutter sound in situations where the actual noise (independent of image quality) is what matters. For instance I would not use the XF during a moment of silence at a funeral. But the earlier comment centered around landscape photography where noise of this kind is not an issue.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 11:08:21 am by Doug Peterson »
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eronald

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Re: Phase One XF-100 initial/rolling impressions
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2016, 02:13:05 pm »

To help justify the pricing? More for your buck?  ;-)

I sometimes wonder how long this format will continue to make sense, regardless of expendable income; I get the impression that more and more advertising is going into more and more less demanding mediums i.e. Internet exposure, where pretty much anything goes, and watcher expectations and realisations are so variable and out of producer control. Maybe all computer screens should come self-calbrating. I wish. I saw my own website on my monitor at the same desk and time as my daughter watched in on her laptop Mac: on her device, skin highlights all looked terribly blown, and I'd thought Mac was a photographer-friendly company institution

Rob C

Apple stopped caring about color management or anything pro. They are about Joe Teenage Public, and the iPhone, and making a buck. At one point I tried to sell my $2 colorimeter to Apple, a color geek there told me it wasn't that they refused to buy it, it was that he couldn't even find anyone he could pass the issue on to.

Edmund
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Rob C

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Re: Phase One XF-100 initial/rolling impressions
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2016, 03:48:43 pm »

Apple stopped caring about color management or anything pro. They are about Joe Teenage Public, and the iPhone, and making a buck. At one point I tried to sell my $2 colorimeter to Apple, a color geek there told me it wasn't that they refused to buy it, it was that he couldn't even find anyone he could pass the issue on to.

Edmund


The shape of things to come.

I imagine that one day, those who agonize over getting digital images perfectly processed will find themselves as much the objects of ridicule and scorn as do those, now, of the film era who remember, and know, what got thrown out with the bath water.

Rob

william

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Re: Phase One XF-100 initial/rolling impressions
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2016, 04:19:50 pm »

As the original poster, I'd like to make a perhaps vain effort to turn the conversation away from laments about Apple, color management, babies and bathwater, etc., and return to the original subject, which is the Phase One XF.

In that regard, a few items on my wishlist in case anyone connected with Phase is still following this thread after wading through irrelevancies:

(1) A vertical grip.  As mentioned in one of my first posts in this thread, handholding vertically is adequate as-is, but the more I use the camera, the more convinced I become that an optional vertical grip would be very helpful.

(2) There should be some way to customize the size and layout of the icons on the top touch screen with a greater degree of nuance than there is currently.  Currently, there's "classic" mode, which shows a bunch of camera parameters, and then "simple" mode, which limits the displayed parameters to only a few (aperture, shutter speed, exposure comp., and battery status).  What I'd like to be able to do is (a) select which individual parameters to display and (b) be able to change the size and positioning of the displayed parameters.  For example: When shooting quickly and wanting to change drive modes or exposure comp., I find that the icons are a bit too small: I sometimes end up accidentally touching the wrong parameter.  Being able to select the individual parameters that I want to display (beyond the binary choices of classic mode and simple mode) and being able to alter their size so that they each take up more screen real estate when fewer of them are displayed would be very helpful.

(3) After reviewing an image on the rear screen and then going back to shooting, I've noticed that it consistently takes 3-4 taps of the shutter button to get the rear screen to turn off.  In the abstract, not a big deal, but the screen should turn off as soon as the shutter button is tapped.  The practical problem here is that if the screen is still on as you raise the camera to your eye, you end up being temporarily blinded (ok, that's an exaggeration) and it therefore takes a few moments for your eye to adjust back to the dimmer ambient light looking through the viewfinder.  This problem is exacerbated if shooting indoors.  It's less of any issue if shooting outdoors in really bright light because your pupils are already constricted anyway.  But if indoors, e.g., under studio conditions, bringing the viewfinder to your eye while the rear display is still lit causes your pupils to constrict just as you're about to look through the viewfinder, and it therefore takes a few moments for them to dilate again and for you to be able to see clearly.

It's possible that my first 2-3 taps aren't firm enough for the back to register that the shutter release has been pressed and that the rear screen should therefore turn off; i.e., perhaps I'm tapping it too lightly at first and then progressively more firmly as I realize that the screen hasn't turned off....

(I'm also aware that I can turn down the screen brightness when shooting indoors.  The point is that I like the brightness as it is; I just want the dang rear screen to properly turn off when I tap the shutter release once as I'm about to bring the camera to my eye.)

(4) The two-handed operation required to remove the back (for example, to clean it or to do a "power cycle"/reboot if it starts acting wonky) both feels much more secure than the previous method on older P series backs (where it could be done with one hand) but also is really annoying/cumbersome.  I tried really hard to see if there was a way to remove the back one-handed: if there is, I couldn't figure it out.  As it stands, you basically have to sit down and have the camera in your lap or place it on the floor or a table to get the back off: there's no way to hold the camera body in one hand and still be able to remove the back.  I can picture many situations where sitting down to place the camera in your lap or put it on a surface to free both hands isn't a practical method to get the back off to clean it or reboot the system: shooting in Death Valley in the 100 degree sun (which I've done) or doing walk-around shooting (what are you going to do, stop and sit in the middle of the sidewalk to take the back off?) or while standing in the middle of a stream (which I haven't done, but plenty others do).

It's not a huge issue for me:  I just liked the old method better.  It may, however, be a real problem for someone with a physical disability affecting one of his/her hands.

Still liking it, a lot!
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 04:25:15 pm by william »
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william

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Re: Phase One XF-100 initial/rolling impressions
« Reply #45 on: May 25, 2016, 04:49:24 pm »

Another image attached.

The purpose of this image was to (a) play around with the XF's bracketing shooting mode and then (b) play around with Photoshop's merge to HDR function.  Because it was the first time I'd used either function (it's not the kind of shooting I normally do), I'm sure this image is over-processed/could be improved in more skilled hands.

The XF's bracketing shooting mode basically takes a sequence of shots of varying exposures (e.g., -1, 0, +1, which is the default range  and is what I used).  If I recall correctly, the bracketing range can be set as far as 5 EV apart and can take a sequence of as many as 7 exposures.  I don't see any way to make the range of over-and-under exposure independent of each other, however.  They're tied together: If you select "1" as the range, it's 1 on either side (one EV underexposed and one EV overexposed).  If I were doing this kind of shooting regularly, I could imagine that being frustrating.  For example, if based on the shooting situation/lighting I know that I want 7 exposures and that I want 5 of them overexposed (+5, +4, +3, +2, +1); one correctly exposed (0), and only one underexposed and only by one EV (-1), I didn't see a way to do that.  Maybe it's there if I were to play around with it more.  Or, of course, one could just use manual exposure mode in that scenario.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 04:53:32 pm by william »
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kers

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Re: Phase One XF-100 initial/rolling impressions
« Reply #46 on: May 25, 2016, 04:59:08 pm »

Another image attached....
Very nice contrast; you can see this is a very good lens...

Pk
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william

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Re: Phase One XF-100 initial/rolling impressions
« Reply #47 on: May 25, 2016, 05:04:07 pm »

Yep.  It was the 40-80mm zoom.  I don't remember the aperture or shutter speed at the moment.

(You can also see that my sensor needs to be cleaned: there are about 4-6 dust spots in the sky in the upper left quadrant.  I would have cloned those dust spots out had I been planning to print this, of course.)

Very nice contrast; you can see this is a very good lens...

Pk
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Rob C

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Re: Phase One XF-100 initial/rolling impressions
« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2016, 05:45:55 pm »

"As the original poster, I'd like to make a perhaps vain effort to turn the conversation away from laments about Apple, color management, babies and bathwater, etc., and return to the original subject, which is the Phase One XF."

Just love a strict disciplinarian!

;-)

Rob C

eronald

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Re: Phase One XF-100 initial/rolling impressions
« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2016, 06:27:53 pm »

"As the original poster, I'd like to make a perhaps vain effort to turn the conversation away from laments about Apple, color management, babies and bathwater, etc., and return to the original subject, which is the Phase One XF."

Just love a strict disciplinarian!

;-)

Rob C

We already have a Phase dealer with a sense of humor - we can tolerate a user with less of it :)
He does give good a genuinely impressive example of HDR, though. ;)
I hope we will see more of his images.

I just went to my local hifi shop and they had this amazing HDR 4K TV from Sony, images really looked "cinematic" or filmlike rather than TV-ish and newsy. I think 10 bit displays and specially processed films are now the new thing in home theatre content, and we can expect large-size HDR displays in public places, replacing traditional print presentation.

Edmund
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 06:36:00 pm by eronald »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One XF-100 initial/rolling impressions
« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2016, 07:07:42 pm »

I tried really hard to see if there was a way to remove the back one-handed: if there is, I couldn't figure it out.

I typically do it with one hand, but then again I do it several times a day so I've had a lot of practice.

Grip the back with your thumb being the only finger that is on the facade with the lock. Slide (with pressure inward) the thumb across the lock onto the release. The back comes right off.

Glad to show you if you're ever at our NYC office or one of our Phase One or Capture One events/training.

Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One XF-100 initial/rolling impressions
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2016, 07:13:04 pm »

For example, if based on the shooting situation/lighting I know that I want 7 exposures and that I want 5 of them overexposed (+5, +4, +3, +2, +1); one correctly exposed (0), and only one underexposed and only by one EV (-1), I didn't see a way to do that.  Maybe it's there if I were to play around with it more.  Or, of course, one could just use manual exposure mode in that scenario.

In this case set the exposure bias to +2 and 7 frame bracketing with stop increments Technically that will through in a -2 as well but it's the easiest mental leap. If you want to be exact you can select +2.5 and 6 frame bracketing with stop increments, but it's a larger mental leap..

JoeKitchen

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Re: Phase One XF-100 initial/rolling impressions
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2016, 09:33:20 pm »


The shape of things to come.

I imagine that one day, those who agonize over getting digital images perfectly processed will find themselves as much the objects of ridicule and scorn as do those, now, of the film era who remember, and know, what got thrown out with the bath water.

Rob

Hah, this is how I feel when I start talking about light with my colleagues.  I show up to a shot with a dozen different light modifiers and about 30 different gels, at least,, all of which I know exactly how will work ( even at specific light temperature).  Most have no idea what I am talking about. 

Recent model lifestyle personal project fun shoot almost through retouching.  Hope to have those up next week. 

Scouting a 32 story roof deck tomorrow morning that I also hope to tack on an extra day for a lifestyle shoot. 
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 09:37:00 pm by JoeKitchen »
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william

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Re: Phase One XF-100 initial/rolling impressions
« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2016, 03:37:00 pm »

Me again.  I forgot one of my XF wishlist items:

5. (a) Electronic masks or crop marks in the viewfinder so that you can accurately compose and shoot verticals and square with the waist level finder, and (b) a crop mode that will apply that crop to the images when imported into Capture One.

With a lower-resolution back, this would be too much of a waste of pixels, at least as to shooting verticals with the camera held horizontally.  But with a 100mp back, that's far less of an issue.

I'm fully aware that I can just guess at a square or vertical composition when using the waist level, but it would be nice to not have to guess.  I'm also aware that, given the proper measurements, I could cut a piece of paper and use it as a viewfinder mask.  But neither of these options would result in the crop being automatically applied to the images: you'd have to manually crop each after the fact.  And you'd have to swap the piece(s) of paper in and out if you're shooting horizontal, vertical, and square in the same session.

I have no idea whether the XF body has the hardware built in to do this.  My Nikon D800 does, i.e., when you select a square or 3x4 crop, the area shown in the viewfinder automatically changes, and the selected crop is automatically applied to the images.

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eronald

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Re: Phase One XF-100 initial/rolling impressions
« Reply #54 on: May 27, 2016, 05:29:35 am »

Me again.  I forgot one of my XF wishlist items:

5. (a) Electronic masks or crop marks in the viewfinder so that you can accurately compose and shoot verticals and square with the waist level finder, and (b) a crop mode that will apply that crop to the images when imported into Capture One.

With a lower-resolution back, this would be too much of a waste of pixels, at least as to shooting verticals with the camera held horizontally.  But with a 100mp back, that's far less of an issue.

I'm fully aware that I can just guess at a square or vertical composition when using the waist level, but it would be nice to not have to guess.  I'm also aware that, given the proper measurements, I could cut a piece of paper and use it as a viewfinder mask.  But neither of these options would result in the crop being automatically applied to the images: you'd have to manually crop each after the fact.  And you'd have to swap the piece(s) of paper in and out if you're shooting horizontal, vertical, and square in the same session.

I have no idea whether the XF body has the hardware built in to do this.  My Nikon D800 does, i.e., when you select a square or 3x4 crop, the area shown in the viewfinder automatically changes, and the selected crop is automatically applied to the images.

There are some guys around who could make up a custom viewfinder screen with score marks for you. They have the advantage often of adding a stop or so of brightness to what one sees.

Also, you could just purchase some extra viewfinders and leave the required masks in them - expensive, but less so than a 100MP back :)

I think having an extra customised viewfinder is as logical as having a special pair of driving or reading eyeglasses - a luxury, but an entirely justifiable one. I customised my own Hassy VF by cutting out a square Fresnel reading magnifier and replacing the inset round loupe with this square - hey presto, full-field magnification.

Edmund
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narikin

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Re: Phase One XF-100 initial/rolling impressions
« Reply #55 on: May 28, 2016, 10:30:24 am »


A lot of effort went into the specific timing, dampening (an secondary motor catches and decelerates the mirror, unlike the previous DF+), location and design of the mechanisms, and the timing of the mirror, electronic first curtain shutter (only available on the IQ3 100mp) and leaf shutter, to ensure it has the least possible impact on the actual image.

Doug, how do you activate Electronic First Curtain on the XF with the IQ100?

Thanks
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william

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Re: Phase One XF-100 initial/rolling impressions
« Reply #56 on: May 28, 2016, 10:42:54 am »

I'm not Doug, but see the following according to this page:https://captureintegration.com/phase-one-iq3-100mp-whats-the-reality/

"The EFCS is worry free as it automatically activates when using Vibration Delay or activating Mirror Up."

Doug, how do you activate Electronic First Curtain on the XF with the IQ100?

Thanks
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