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Author Topic: Alignment tool for P1 DB  (Read 3897 times)

gdh

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Alignment tool for P1 DB
« on: April 17, 2016, 03:09:32 pm »

I read with interest Rudy Lorejo’s (DTblog) article on the comparison of the XF and H5X. Therein he said he used a laser alignment tool. I believe they use a horizontal plane high tech copy stand whereas I use the wall and a tripod :)  However, there must be an alignment tool to help me align my DB plane with the artwork on the wall I want to copy.

I have used "zig align" in the darkroom days for both my view camera and enlarger, but I'd appreciate any recommendations for vertical alignment  of the flat art work I'm copying and my digital back.

At present I spend too much time attempting to get the art work parallel on all four edges to my viewfinder and since that is subjective on my part, not as precise as I'd like despite comparing the edges in live view.

I'd appreciate any thoughts or recommendations? 

Ken Doo

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Re: Alignment tool for P1 DB
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2016, 03:20:43 pm »

gdh

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Re: Alignment tool for P1 DB
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2016, 04:16:39 pm »

Hi Ken,

I looked at the versalab parallel earlier but had the impression it was meant for horizontal use.  In reading the B&H link you sent and on further reflection, I'm now thinking I could hang it over the artwork like you do an i1 display profiler to laptop screen, and and attach the reflective mirror that comes with it to the front of my lens shade or even lens with rubber bands.

Thanks for the second look--I think that might work.  I'll wait to see if any other suggestions, but I'm sure this would work and if nothing better, will get it.

Thanks

NickT

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Re: Alignment tool for P1 DB
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2016, 04:18:35 pm »

All the copy guys I know use zig-align.
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Theodoros

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Re: Alignment tool for P1 DB
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2016, 04:43:25 pm »

I read with interest Rudy Lorejo’s (DTblog) article on the comparison of the XF and H5X. Therein he said he used a laser alignment tool. I believe they use a horizontal plane high tech copy stand whereas I use the wall and a tripod :)  However, there must be an alignment tool to help me align my DB plane with the artwork on the wall I want to copy.

I have used "zig align" in the darkroom days for both my view camera and enlarger, but I'd appreciate any recommendations for vertical alignment  of the flat art work I'm copying and my digital back.

At present I spend too much time attempting to get the art work parallel on all four edges to my viewfinder and since that is subjective on my part, not as precise as I'd like despite comparing the edges in live view.

I'd appreciate any thoughts or recommendations?

Two or three or even (max) four, simple "bulb in liquid" calibrators should do the job very well indeed... I don't use them at all as they are build in the camera and I've two of them attached permanently on the board that I attach the art work on... I don't attach it on the wall directly (but rather attach it on the (self made) board and then attach that on the wall, as you can never be sure on how "perfect" a wall might be...
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gdh

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Re: Alignment tool for P1 DB
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2016, 04:49:30 pm »

Thanks Nick.  I used Zig-Align in the past but it was then and apparently is still a passive system, that is just viewing thru a hole to line up concentric circles.  I had difficulty with it due to a astigmatism in one eye. Therefor, in my case, I think a laser projection system like the Versalab Ken mentioned would work better, since from their website, it sounds pretty simple--either the red dot is in the middle or not.  Seems this is the only such system I can find.

All the copy guys I know use zig-align.

gdh

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Re: Alignment tool for P1 DB
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2016, 05:35:59 pm »

Ted,

I guess I don't understand from your description how you insure that the wall (art work) is parallel vertically and horizontally and therefore perpendicular to the sensor plane.  I get that you can make the art work straight up and down and horizontal and the same with the camera with your method, but that's only 2 dimensions of a 3 dimensional process.  How does your method insure that the right and left sides of the artwork are equidistant or parallel to right and left sides of the sensor plane? The laser tool on the other hand, takes into account all 3 dimensions.  Please correct me if I'm wrong or misunderstand your system.


Two or three or even (max) four, simple "bulb in liquid" calibrators should do the job very well indeed... I don't use them at all as they are build in the camera and I've two of them attached permanently on the board that I attach the art work on... I don't attach it on the wall directly (but rather attach it on the (self made) board and then attach that on the wall, as you can never be sure on how "perfect" a wall might be...

eronald

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Re: Alignment tool for P1 DB
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2016, 07:07:09 pm »

mirror on easel?

Ted,

I guess I don't understand from your description how you insure that the wall (art work) is parallel vertically and horizontally and therefore perpendicular to the sensor plane.  I get that you can make the art work straight up and down and horizontal and the same with the camera with your method, but that's only 2 dimensions of a 3 dimensional process.  How does your method insure that the right and left sides of the artwork are equidistant or parallel to right and left sides of the sensor plane? The laser tool on the other hand, takes into account all 3 dimensions.  Please correct me if I'm wrong or misunderstand your system.
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Theodoros

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Re: Alignment tool for P1 DB
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2016, 08:13:01 pm »

mirror on easel?

I don't see where the problem is... if one uses a board (done well of course) if the board's plane isn't exactly perpendicular to  the lens axis, it will show in the viewfinder... even the slightest of variation will show... it will show as asymmetrical converging or diverging lines, vertical or Horizontal, or even both... Especially if one uses LV...but even if he doesn't, he can also use the "test" capture as to test for misalignment... He is gonna do the test capture anyway isn't he?

P.S. Just make sure that you use a (well calibrated for the lighting) multishot back guys... the rest is easy...
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gdh

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Re: Alignment tool for P1 DB
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2016, 11:54:45 pm »

I don't see where the problem is... if one uses a board (done well of course) if the board's plane isn't exactly perpendicular to  the lens axis, it will show in the viewfinder... even the slightest of variation will show... it will show as asymmetrical converging or diverging lines, vertical or Horizontal, or even both... Especially if one uses LV...but even if he doesn't, he can also use the "test" capture as to test for misalignment... He is gonna do the test capture anyway isn't he?

P.S. Just make sure that you use a (well calibrated for the lighting) multi-shot back guys... the rest is easy...

Well yes, if you add the additional factor of visually aligning the art work with the viewfinder edges, but that is the way I'm doing it now if you read my original post.  I want something more precise and less subjective.  The Versalab Parallel seems to be my choice at this point. Eronald, Versalab Parallel is a mirror and laser system.  I'm mounting my art work to be copied on a wall vertically.

eronald

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Re: Alignment tool for P1 DB
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2016, 06:21:46 pm »

Well yes, if you add the additional factor of visually aligning the art work with the viewfinder edges, but that is the way I'm doing it now if you read my original post.  I want something more precise and less subjective.  The Versalab Parallel seems to be my choice at this point. Eronald, Versalab Parallel is a mirror and laser system.  I'm mounting my art work to be copied on a wall vertically.

If all you need is right angle alignment, then I think just putting a mirror at the center of your artwork should be enough.
It's what people who shoot lab testcharts do AFAIK. But then I say "I think" because I've never done that myself. I tended to use a criss-crossed screen and checked for centering with the help of those marks. First thing I'd do when buying a new camera would be to mount that screen.

Edmund
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Alignment tool for P1 DB
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2016, 08:46:56 am »

Well yes, if you add the additional factor of visually aligning the art work with the viewfinder edges, but that is the way I'm doing it now if you read my original post.  I want something more precise and less subjective.  The Versalab Parallel seems to be my choice at this point. Eronald, Versalab Parallel is a mirror and laser system.  I'm mounting my art work to be copied on a wall vertically.

Hi,

For a one man operated alignment, the "Parallel" can be 'mounted' at the subject, but then it's harder to see (depending on distance). That seems to be a potential issue for vertical objects (especially when they are not vertical). You probably do better with alignment by positioning the "Parallel" flush with the lens barrel (which BTW may not be equally parallel to the sensor plane). A similar issue is with mounting the reflector mirror of the Zig-align at the subject, and which also assumes that the sensor and lens filtermount are parallel.

If you can solve the issue of mounting a simple mirror parallel to the subject surface, I think that you can already get very accurate results with a well centered reflection of the image of your lens. Especially at some distance, the reflected lens image will be small enough to allow very precise centering and parallel positioning in all dimensions.

I don't know what type of laser alignment method was hinted at by Rudy Lorejo's blog post, but maybe it's a bit similar to my home made method.

As a partial solution, I occasionally use some components that I already have (see attached image), and which avoids having to touch the surface of the subject. I use a Leica Disto mounted on a parallel RRS bar. Fully shifted left I measure the distance (millimetre accuracy), and fully shifted right I measure the distance. This will provide for a measurement base of upto 80 cm (31.5 inches). That will allow in a few iterations to achieve very good (< 0.1 degree) parallelism of the left and right sides of the artwork relative to the (presumed parallel) camera bracket on tripod. If the sensor is mounted parallel to the camera base, it should be adequate for the intended purpose.

The as yet unknown amount of tilt will then be relatively easily estimated (because it is only one degree of freedom) by visual comparison of the edges (assuming a rectangular subject/frame). Otherwise one could use the same procedure with a tripod head rotated by (approx.) 90 degrees, or use an additional bar in vertical orientation. The bar(s) can be removed for the actual shooting (or the horizontal bar can be used for Stereo photos of surface structure, or of objects with depth).

While a bit slower than with an art-surface mounted mirror or "Parallel", the main benefit is a contactless measurement, which is probably accurate enough for the purpose. Another benefit is that the subject does not have to be parallel to the wall or support it is mounted on, because it is only the relative subject / sensor parallelism that counts.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 01:03:43 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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eronald

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Re: Alignment tool for P1 DB
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2016, 09:30:03 am »

Hi,

For a one man operated alignment, the "Parallel" can be 'mounted' at the subject. That seems to be a potential issue for vertical objects (especially when they are not vertical). You also do not utilize the double (distance) accuracy by positioning the "Parallel" flush with the lens barrel (which may not be equally parallel to the sensor plane). A similar issue is with mounting the reflector mirror of the Zig-align at the subject, and which also assumes that the sensor and lens filtermount are parallel.

If you can solve the issue of mounting a simple mirror parallel to the subject surface, I think that you can already get very accurate results with a well centered reflection of the image of your lens. Especially at some distance, the reflected lens image will be small enough to allow very precise centering and parallel positioning in all dimensions.

I don't know what type of laser alignment method was hinted at by Rudy Lorejo's blog post, but maybe it's a bit similar to my home made method.

As a partial solution, I occasionally use some components that I already have (see attached image), and which avoids having to touch the surface of the subject. I use a Leica Disto mounted on a parallel RRS bar. Fully shifted left I measure the distance (millimetre accuracy), and fully shifted right I measure the distance. This will provide for a measurement base of upto 80 cm (31.5 inches). That will allow in a few iterations to achieve very good (< 0.1 degree) parallelism of the left and right sides of the artwork relative to the (presumed parallel) camera bracket on tripod. If the sensor is mounted parallel to the camera base, it should be adequate for the intended purpose.

The as yet unsolved amount of tilt will then be relatively easily solved (because it is only one degree of freedom) by visual comparison of the edges (assuming a rectangular subject/frame). Otherwise one could use the same procedure with a tripod head rotated by (approx.) 90 degrees, or use an additional bar in vertical orientation.

While a bit slower than with an art-surface mounted mirror or "Parallel", the main benefit is a contactless measurement, which is probably accurate enough for the purpose. Another benefit is that the subject does not have to be parallel to the wall or support it is mounted on, because it is only the relative subject / sensor parallelism that counts.

Cheers,
Bart

Bart, you're right, there is the "contactless" issue.

Edmund
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