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Author Topic: Long Exposures, Dark Frames and IQ260 vs P45+  (Read 18480 times)

voidshatter

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Re: Long Exposures, Dark Frames and IQ260 vs P45+
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2016, 07:10:25 am »

Thanks to your link it is clear that pushing the limits of the back has it's weaknesses, especially when compared to other systems. So, I think what C+B is mentioning is to not go outside of those limits.

If you can live with limiting yourself to shoot only low contrast scenes (and hence missing backlit sunset/sunrise which are most desirable and challenging) then it's perfectly fine to choose a CCD you like. Even for the scenes Synn posted, if you look into the 100% crop of his picture you could still observe noise and artifacts left by noise reduction. It cost me a fortune to realize that CCD backs are not for me. Now that Phase One, Hasselblad, Pentax and Leica all moved to CMOS for their flagship models. Good luck with your decision.
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BobRoss

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Re: Long Exposures, Dark Frames and IQ260 vs P45+
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2016, 07:16:02 am »

If you can live with limiting yourself to shoot only low contrast scenes (and hence missing backlit sunset/sunrise which are most desirable and challenging) then it's perfectly fine to choose a CCD you like. Even for the scenes Synn posted, if you look into the 100% crop of his picture you could still observe noise and artifacts left by noise reduction. It cost me a fortune to realize that CCD backs are not for me. Now that Phase One, Hasselblad, Pentax and Leica all moved to CMOS for their flagship models. Good luck with your decision.

Thanks for your wishes, you've definitely helped a lot in gaining an understanding of the bigger picture with some invaluable information. As you say I think it does all come down to your stye of shooting. Beautiful long exposures in your 500px by the way, you've opened my eyes to the power of the CMOS medium format!
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Christoph B.

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Re: Long Exposures, Dark Frames and IQ260 vs P45+
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2016, 07:32:01 am »

If you can live with limiting yourself to shoot only low contrast scenes (and hence missing backlit sunset/sunrise which are most desirable and challenging) then it's perfectly fine to choose a CCD you like. Even for the scenes Synn posted, if you look into the 100% crop of his picture you could still observe noise and artifacts left by noise reduction. It cost me a fortune to realize that CCD backs are not for me. Now that Phase One, Hasselblad, Pentax and Leica all moved to CMOS for their flagship models. Good luck with your decision.

I don't buy it. Sorry. I know they all move to CMOS because CMOS is 'in'. Sure it offers nice advantages too and CMOS is better for liveview and movies etc. But the rest is (sorry for the expression) bullshit. I have recently shot scenes in sunrise with the old P65+ and I had 0 issues, no blown highlights or drowned shadows even though some party were directly hit by sunlight and others still in the shade.

Think of it this way: the 14 stops of the IQ250 vs the 13 stops of the IQ260 isn't that big of a deal. Not at all. It's only half a stop at the top and half a stop at the bottom. If you're unable to get the shot with one it's very unlikely you'll be able to get it with the other. That's why I said numbers aren't the end-all and be-all of photography. Real life does not work that way.
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Paul2660

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Re: Long Exposures, Dark Frames and IQ260 vs P45+
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2016, 07:42:52 am »

The use of the CCD backs for longer exposures can be done and with the right technique, you can produce some very good images.  There are some limits however to each of the backs, P45+ and IQ260, I have never shot the 645D, but it being CCD more than likely will have some of the same issues.


Of the Phase backs, the P45+ to me is still the best for long exposures.  Phase did a very nice job on this back, and you can easily get to a 1 hour exposure.  There are some considerations:

1.  The P45+ long exposure must be accompanied by a corresponding dark frame exposure of the same time.  So if you just exposed for 45 minutes, the back has to take another 45 minute exposure.  Failure to allow this, will ruin the first exposure.  So battery life becomes important.  You can expect to get maybe 4 45 minute exposures (and that is a with a new 3400 milliamp battery), so 2 actual shots.

2.  The actual outdoor temperature needs to be at 69 degree F or lower for full 1 hour exposures.  You also don't want to use the back for a long exposure in time of high humidity. 

3.  The best long exposures from the P45+ are taken at 50 ISO, so for astrophotography, this can limit your capabilities depending your conditions. 
4.  There is no way to turn off the dark frame on the P45+.

The P45+ can do a very good job, right up to 1 hour, it's not a great back for stacking (which is what I do now) for several reasons, no intervalometer support and the dark frame requirement.  But if the conditions the results can be very rewarding. The files will still hold up with good color saturation and details.

IQ260:

This back will go to 1 hour, but in my experience the results really don't compare well to the P45+.  Some considerations:

1.  The IQ260 needs to be in the Long exposure mode, which starts at a base ISO of 140. 
2.  The 260, will need to shoot a dark frame just like the P45+, however on shorter exposures, say 5 minutes to 10 minutes you might be able to get away
     shooting in aerial mode, which means no dark frame will be shot.
3.  Results vary, but I never saw the same clean detailed files that I saw from my P45+, at 30 45 and 60 minutes. 
4.  With the XF body you could stack with the 260 using the timer feature (as now Phase as added a intervalometer to the XF) but you would need to turn
     off the dark frame and be in aerial mode.  So you will get quite a few stuck pixels.
5.  The files I took with the 260 were all 30 minute tests and none of them really had the same clarity of the P45+ images, so I quickly stopped using it for
     LE work.  The files lack both good saturation and showed quite a bit of noise and loss of finer details. 

To me if you want a CCD back for LE work, I would still go with the P45+.  Make sure you test one and a 260 if you can.  The interface on the P45+ is very old and the LCD pretty much worthless (similar to the screen on the Canon 1ds MKI), so image review is not easy.  You also can only tether via old style firewire.  The 260 has the IQ interface, which is 100% better and will work with the XF body.

The newer CMOS backs have been mentioned, and the older 50MP in the IQ150, IQ250 and Credo 50, will out perform the IQ260 for sure and possible the P45+, but these are more expensive and to be honest, the Pentax 644Z would be the better choice, as you get a back and body.  I don't know if there is a intervalometer for the 645Z, I have never seen one mentioned so stacking might be a problem.  But the camera does a great job with the Sony sensor and you can turn off the dark frame on it. 

You might be able to get a good price on a IQ150 or Credo50 as Phase One is now starting to make some attractive pricing offers on kits featuring these backs. 

For sure try to locate a Phase One dealer in your location, and set up a demo.  The dealer can provide you with a certified used back, for all of the backs mentioned if you wish to go that route and they will be your 1st point of contact for support. 

This is an image taken with the P45+ @ around 50 minutes with the older 35mm Mamiya lens and AFDIII camera.



Paul C
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 07:48:05 am by Paul2660 »
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Paul Caldwell
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synn

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Re: Long Exposures, Dark Frames and IQ260 vs P45+
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2016, 07:43:26 am »

If you can live with limiting yourself to shoot only low contrast scenes (and hence missing backlit sunset/sunrise which are most desirable and challenging) then it's perfectly fine to choose a CCD you like. Even for the scenes Synn posted, if you look into the 100% crop of his picture you could still observe noise and artifacts left by noise reduction. It cost me a fortune to realize that CCD backs are not for me. Now that Phase One, Hasselblad, Pentax and Leica all moved to CMOS for their flagship models. Good luck with your decision.

You're a good photographer and I know you have an agenda against CCD cameras and yes, I agree that CMOS cameras produce cleaner files, but to hint that CCD cameras cannot be used to shoot sunrise/ sunset shots is utter bullshit. Many great sunrise and sunset images have been made with CCD cameras before CMOS was a thing and none of those cameras have magically stopped working. I highly doubt Phaseone sent Joe Cornish a special version of their backs with much better DR and shadows than the regular one each time he bought a CCD back from them. Yes, they are more limited in the field and the key is to learn to use them within their limits to achieve the results you want. Hell, Velvia has less than half the DR of a CCD back and you could shoot amazing sunsets with it if you know how to work within its limits.

As for my files, I don't quite care how they look at 100%. Quite a few of them have been printed at 40" or so and at the intended viewing distance, they kick ass. Maybe if my priorities were more oriented towards pixel peeping, I'd tend to see it differently.

Anyway, all this is taking away from the thread.
@bob: if you can, rent each of these backs to see if they suit your style. And yes, I still recommend the Hasselblad CFV50C, it is amazing value for money.
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voidshatter

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Re: Long Exposures, Dark Frames and IQ260 vs P45+
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2016, 07:52:59 am »

I don't buy it. Sorry. I know they all move to CMOS because CMOS is 'in'. Sure it offers nice advantages too and CMOS is better for liveview and movies etc. But the rest is (sorry for the expression) bullshit. I have recently shot scenes in sunrise with the old P65+ and I had 0 issues, no blown highlights or drowned shadows even though some party were directly hit by sunlight and others still in the shade.

Think of it this way: the 14 stops of the IQ250 vs the 13 stops of the IQ260 isn't that big of a deal. Not at all. It's only half a stop at the top and half a stop at the bottom. If you're unable to get the shot with one it's very unlikely you'll be able to get it with the other. That's why I said numbers aren't the end-all and be-all of photography. Real life does not work that way.

This thread is specifically about long exposure. For long exposure the difference is not just 13 stops vs 14 stops, but significantly greater. If you only have a P65+ instead of an IQ260 then I bet that you might even don't know that for the dedicated "long exposure mode (LEM)" of the IQ260 the lowest possible ISO setting is ISO 140 instead of ISO 50. Are you indeed experienced in long exposure?

Below is one of my picture which was used as the cover of a photography magazine. It was shot by an IQ250, with Rodenstock 23mm + Rodenstock center filter + Lee Big Stopper + Singh-Ray 3 stops Reverse. There is no way you can shoot this with a CCD back with usable image quality. Even for this simple scene with straight skyline where you can apply the traditional filters, it is not possible to avoid the cloud above the sun to get underexposed which forces you to push shadow in post processing.

If you look into my recent SNR and dynamic range measurements throughout the IQ3 100MP and the IQ3 80MP you could easily see the huge difference.
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voidshatter

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Re: Long Exposures, Dark Frames and IQ260 vs P45+
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2016, 08:05:41 am »

Many great sunrise and sunset images have been made with CCD cameras before CMOS was a thing and none of those cameras have magically stopped working.

Image quality improves over time when technology advances. If you look back to the great photos of World War II you could easily tell that the image quality is far behind today's iPhone. I certainly agree that you could make fantastic images with CCD backs. I just know that CCD is beaten hard by a Nikon D800E in terms of image quality in the long exposure territory when shooting a contrasty scene.

I highly doubt Phaseone sent Joe Cornish a special version of their backs with much better DR and shadows than the regular one each time he bought a CCD back from them.

Where is his comparison against a D800E in terms of image quality in the long exposure territory when shooting a contrasty scene?

As for my files, I don't quite care how they look at 100%. Quite a few of them have been printed at 40" or so and at the intended viewing distance, they kick ass. Maybe if my priorities were more oriented towards pixel peeping, I'd tend to see it differently.

Well if you a satisfied then it's good for you.
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synn

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Re: Long Exposures, Dark Frames and IQ260 vs P45+
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2016, 08:12:09 am »



Where is his comparison against a D800E in terms of image quality in the long exposure territory when shooting a contrasty scene?


I am fairly confident he's too busy making money from his images to do  side by side comparisons for the sake of the internet.


Well if you a satisfied then it's good for you.

Thanks.
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voidshatter

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Re: Long Exposures, Dark Frames and IQ260 vs P45+
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2016, 08:15:53 am »

I am fairly confident he's too busy making money from his images to do  side by side comparisons for the sake of the internet.

This is why I can bet that if he chooses a D800E instead of an IQ260/IQ380 to shoot long exposure of contrasty scenes he can achieve better image quality. He may know this, may not, but this doesn't matter, as he's just doing a marketing job for Phase One.
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Christoph B.

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Re: Long Exposures, Dark Frames and IQ260 vs P45+
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2016, 08:37:18 am »

This thread is specifically about long exposure. For long exposure the difference is not just 13 stops vs 14 stops, but significantly greater. If you only have a P65+ instead of an IQ260 then I bet that you might even don't know that for the dedicated "long exposure mode (LEM)" of the IQ260 the lowest possible ISO setting is ISO 140 instead of ISO 50. Are you indeed experienced in long exposure?

Below is one of my picture which was used as the cover of a photography magazine. It was shot by an IQ250, with Rodenstock 23mm + Rodenstock center filter + Lee Big Stopper + Singh-Ray 3 stops Reverse. There is no way you can shoot this with a CCD back with usable image quality. Even for this simple scene with straight skyline where you can apply the traditional filters, it is not possible to avoid the cloud above the sun to get underexposed which forces you to push shadow in post processing.

If you look into my recent SNR and dynamic range measurements throughout the IQ3 100MP and the IQ3 80MP you could easily see the huge difference.


I'm well aware that this thread is for. I was giving an example for an even older back that isn't even equipped with a dedicated long exposure mode but still delivers excellent results and has ample DR for sunrise and sunset photos with direct sunlight.

The problem is that some people can't expose. They instead rely on technology to make up for their mistakes - and that's okay.
And yes, I've seen that photo, you've shown it around a lot of times, thank you. But that's no proof for anything - you didn't make a comparison and a side by side shot. And if you really think that the quality of a 260 wouldn't be sufficient for a magazine print you must be very biased indeed - even more than you seem.
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voidshatter

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Re: Long Exposures, Dark Frames and IQ260 vs P45+
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2016, 08:47:04 am »

The problem is that some people can't expose. They instead rely on technology to make up for their mistakes - and that's okay.

Unfortunately the magazine cover example was exposed correctly and I can put my money in it that you can't expose better with whatever CCD back you have.

you didn't make a comparison and a side by side shot.

Well it appears that you are so lazy to read my threads and posts. I could certainly post here again for you.
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Christoph B.

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Re: Long Exposures, Dark Frames and IQ260 vs P45+
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2016, 08:49:37 am »

And here's the problem: even my old P65+ back has better long exposure files with less noise than YOUR examples of the 260.

What are you doing wrong?
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voidshatter

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Re: Long Exposures, Dark Frames and IQ260 vs P45+
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2016, 08:51:07 am »

And here's the problem: even my old P65+ back has better long exposure files with less noise than YOUR examples of the 260.

What are you doing wrong?

Where is your side by side comparison between your P65+ and a D800E then? (long exposure of contrasty scene)

If you haven't done any comparison at all then why mislead the others with your imagination?
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Christoph B.

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Re: Long Exposures, Dark Frames and IQ260 vs P45+
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2016, 08:56:50 am »

I don't need to. It's not my imagination, I'm just looking at your examples and the only conclusion that I can come to is that you're doing something wrong. My files look very clean... So what did you do to these files? I highly doubt they aren't manipulated.

In any case - good for you.
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voidshatter

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Re: Long Exposures, Dark Frames and IQ260 vs P45+
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2016, 09:00:02 am »

I don't need to. It's not my imagination, I'm just looking at your examples and the only conclusion that I can come to is that you're doing something wrong. My files look very clean... So what did you do to these files? I highly doubt they aren't manipulated.

In any case - good for you.

You imagine your P65+ files to be cleaner without a side by side comparison against a D800E. Good for you. If you are satisfied with your P65+ then I suggest you not to compare it against a D800E because you might regret it. I regret comparing my IQ260 agaisnt my D800E after all.

My steps are so simple: just push the shadow in post processing. My RAW files are published for download and you could try it yourself.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2016, 09:07:50 am by Yunli Song »
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Christoph B.

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Re: Long Exposures, Dark Frames and IQ260 vs P45+
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2016, 09:13:28 am »

I compared my worst files to your latest comparison shot. No further inquiry needed but thanks for trying! :)

My steps are even simpler: correct exposure and no need to ruin the shadows!
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synn

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Re: Long Exposures, Dark Frames and IQ260 vs P45+
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2016, 09:17:18 am »


My steps are even simpler: correct exposure and no need to ruin the shadows!

My steps are very similar to yours! Must be a coincidence. ;)
I have a D800 as well and sure, I can underexpose 4 stops on it and push in post and go "WOW", but I don't need to do that in any real world shooting scenarios.
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voidshatter

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Re: Long Exposures, Dark Frames and IQ260 vs P45+
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2016, 09:22:27 am »

I compared my worst files to your latest comparison shot. No further inquiry needed but thanks for trying! :)

My steps are even simpler: correct exposure and no need to ruin the shadows!

You have no side by side comparison so that's not a valid argument for me.

I would be surprised that you could do a better exposure for my magazine cover photo.
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voidshatter

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Re: Long Exposures, Dark Frames and IQ260 vs P45+
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2016, 09:38:08 am »

My steps are very similar to yours! Must be a coincidence. ;)
I have a D800 as well and sure, I can underexpose 4 stops on it and push in post and go "WOW", but I don't need to do that in any real world shooting scenarios.

Not only for backlit landscape of sunset/sunrise, but also for weddings and portrait it is still a use case where one needs to push the shadow details out of a RAW file.

This is not wrong exposure. It's the correct exposure. Even with flash and lighting it is not practical to illuminate the background. As technology advances we can achieve what was not easy for our previous generations.

Here are reviews from Chris, Philip, etc.

http://chrisgilesphotography.com/blog/pentax-645z-review-pt2-dynamic-range/

https://www.storehouse.co/stories/o061f

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Christoph B.

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Re: Long Exposures, Dark Frames and IQ260 vs P45+
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2016, 09:42:15 am »

I know you would! :)

And by the way, your 'comparison shots' are really badly exposed and there's nothing to compare here. Different exposure times and ISO settings everywhere, nothing to make sense of...what were your trying to achieve? I mean seriously... that was a huge waste of time!

That's not an offence but it's a fact - and I said earlier: if you can't expose correctly you're better off with a CMOS back to correct your mistakes. So if a CMOS works for you I'm happy for you. Congratulations! :)

But that doesn't mean that others can't work with CCD backs.
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