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Author Topic: Testing PRO-1000  (Read 6880 times)

shadowblade

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Re: Testing PRO-1000
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2016, 11:25:56 pm »

The 1000 printhead appears to be the same in the 2000 (24" printer) and the 4000 (44" printer) so the quality on canvas or any media should be the same. The inks should be the same also. The nice thing about this 1000 printer is that the media is fed by suction, rather than the pizza wheels on the P800. I mainly print on canvas so I would like to see the quality on canvas, especially how the printer handles shadow detail. I am leaning toward the P10000 because of the 4 levels of black. I would guess that give more shadow detail. So, any feedback you can give on shadow detail on canvas would be much appreciated with this printer.
Gar

Number of black inks has little to no impact on shadow detail - after all, it's possible to have fantastic shadows detail using just a single black ink. What lighter inks (and smaller droplet sizes) help with is in smoothness of graduations, and also a little in highlight details (since you can put lighter black dots closer together).

Shadow detail is largely dependent on the print medium (the smoother the medium, the more detail) and on the RIP/profile used to print it. You shouldn't need to modify the image to fit the printer - the profile should be set so that every tone from full white to full black is distinguishable, and the entire image fits within that range.
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iCanvas

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Re: Testing PRO-1000
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2016, 08:07:51 am »

Number of black inks has little to no impact on shadow detail - after all, it's possible to have fantastic shadows detail using just a single black ink. What lighter inks (and smaller droplet sizes) help with is in smoothness of graduations, and also a little in highlight details (since you can put lighter black dots closer together).

Shadow detail is largely dependent on the print medium (the smoother the medium, the more detail) and on the RIP/profile used to print it. You shouldn't need to modify the image to fit the printer - the profile should be set so that every tone from full white to full black is distinguishable, and the entire image fits within that range.

Thanks Shadowblade !!!  :) I will be doing a lot of experimentation on shadow detail with my new P10000 and comparing it to my 9900. I like that the P10000 doesn't have to change between PB and MB. I also like the speed of the printer.
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shadowblade

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Re: Testing PRO-1000
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2016, 08:17:43 am »

Thanks Shadowblade !!!  :) I will be doing a lot of experimentation on shadow detail with my new P10000 and comparing it to my 9900. I like that the P10000 doesn't have to change between PB and MB. I also like the speed of the printer.

If you want the best in shadow detail, use a RIP.

Like default settings in cameras and RAW converters, many canned profiles are designed to give you greater midtone contrasts at the expense of shadow and highlight detail. Essentially, it's applying a curve to an image which has already had curves applied. What you really want is a flat response curve, with pure black (and only pure black) giving you the lowest-possible L value, and pure white (and only pure white) giving you the highest possible L value (which may or may not mean zero ink coverage, depending on the colour neutrality of the paper).
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iCanvas

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Re: Testing PRO-1000
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2016, 09:11:12 am »

If you want the best in shadow detail, use a RIP.

Like default settings in cameras and RAW converters, many canned profiles are designed to give you greater midtone contrasts at the expense of shadow and highlight detail. Essentially, it's applying a curve to an image which has already had curves applied. What you really want is a flat response curve, with pure black (and only pure black) giving you the lowest-possible L value, and pure white (and only pure white) giving you the highest possible L value (which may or may not mean zero ink coverage, depending on the colour neutrality of the paper).

Thanks Shadowblade! We mainly reproduce fine art paintings and hardly any work with camera files. The art has been scanned in to produce a file and we use photoshop to print from that. The files are at least 300mb and scanned in at 360dpi. In your opinion what tools in Photoshop would bring out the greatest shadow detail. I have had a ICC profile produced for Epson Exhibition Matte Canvas and the 9900. Sometimes we let the printer manage the colors and sometimes use the profile and let Photoshop manage the colors. Can't tell much of a difference. Any advice would be great.
Gar
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Testing PRO-1000
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2016, 09:18:30 am »

If you want the best in shadow detail, use a RIP.

Like default settings in cameras and RAW converters, many canned profiles are designed to give you greater midtone contrasts at the expense of shadow and highlight detail. Essentially, it's applying a curve to an image which has already had curves applied. What you really want is a flat response curve, with pure black (and only pure black) giving you the lowest-possible L value, and pure white (and only pure white) giving you the highest possible L value (which may or may not mean zero ink coverage, depending on the colour neutrality of the paper).

I agree that the number of Black inks does not necessarily affect shadow detail; however it is not necessary to use a RIP for obtaining the extent of shadow detail and smoothness of tonal gradations suitable for most photographs. This is best assured by skilled image editing and using a high-bit workflow. In respect of Gar's specific requirements, the shadow detail eventually possible in the print will also depend heavily on how the paintings were scanned. No doubt Gar knows that the scanning process itself should keep the quartertones "open" so the tonal gradations and the detail can be reproduced in print. If those are lost by shadow clipping in the scan, they are unrecoverable.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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shadowblade

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Re: Testing PRO-1000
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2016, 12:10:34 pm »

I agree that the number of Black inks does not necessarily affect shadow detail; however it is not necessary to use a RIP for obtaining the extent of shadow detail and smoothness of tonal gradations suitable for most photographs. This is best assured by skilled image editing and using a high-bit workflow. In respect of Gar's specific requirements, the shadow detail eventually possible in the print will also depend heavily on how the paintings were scanned. No doubt Gar knows that the scanning process itself should keep the quartertones "open" so the tonal gradations and the detail can be reproduced in print. If those are lost by shadow clipping in the scan, they are unrecoverable.

I guess you can either apply a compensatory curve to the image, or to the ink limiting curves - I just prefer to do it in the printer.

When processing an image, I like the tones and contrast I see on screen to be the same as what comes out in the print. That is, if I can see a difference between (0, 0, 0) and (5, 5, 5) on-screen, or if I can see detail in a dark part of an image which is all below (15, 15, 15) I'd like to be able to see it in the print too - without having to apply a compensatory curve in Photoshop for printing, after I'm already done editing it.
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iCanvas

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Re: Testing PRO-1000
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2016, 12:15:35 pm »

I agree that the number of Black inks does not necessarily affect shadow detail; however it is not necessary to use a RIP for obtaining the extent of shadow detail and smoothness of tonal gradations suitable for most photographs. This is best assured by skilled image editing and using a high-bit workflow. In respect of Gar's specific requirements, the shadow detail eventually possible in the print will also depend heavily on how the paintings were scanned. No doubt Gar knows that the scanning process itself should keep the quartertones "open" so the tonal gradations and the detail can be reproduced in print. If those are lost by shadow clipping in the scan, they are unrecoverable.

Thanks Mark! The original pieces of art were scanned in by a reproduction house. What tools in Photoshop would YOU use to get the maximum details in the shadows without lightening the pic: Curves, Saturation, Brightness, Contrast, Shadows/Highlights, selective color? Some of these tools can really make the canvas reproduction look overly processed.
Gar
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Testing PRO-1000
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2016, 12:33:54 pm »

Thanks Mark! The original pieces of art were scanned in by a reproduction house. What tools in Photoshop would YOU use to get the maximum details in the shadows without lightening the pic: Curves, Saturation, Brightness, Contrast, Shadows/Highlights, selective color? Some of these tools can really make the canvas reproduction look overly processed.
Gar

I do 99% of my image editing work in Lightroom and very seldom need to use Photoshop. I use whichever tools the photograph needs, under softproof, and watch what my adjustments are doing to the appearance of the photograph. Doing this under softproof is essential to avoid surprises coming out of the printer. The ultimate constraints in a print workflow are the printer, the paper, the profile, the inks and from those the resulting gamut and dynamic range. (For example, the lowest L* reading I obtained from Epson Legacy Fibre paper in a P800 using the Epson ABW mode was 15. Any image information below 15 is therefore unavailable in print.) Within those constraints you use the editing tools in the image processing application to optimize the results. For working particularly on shadow detail, there are no hard rules, but I often find playing between Exposure, Shadows, Blacks, Clarity and Contrast goes a long way to achieve the needful, while in some cases the Lightroom Tone Curve, starting-off from linear, can be tweaked to advantage. All of this can be usually managed without making the photograph look over-processed - in fact one wants to avoid that and usually can, but so much is image-dependent. It is good to begin this workflow without preset "Auto" Adjustments, as you often find yourself having to undo what the Auto did before getting to what you want. Years ago, I was able to smarten-up shadow detail quite a bit in Photohop using several Blend Modes with masks, but since Lightroom has become such a powerful image editor, I have not had reason to revert to those rather intensive techniques.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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shadowblade

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Re: Testing PRO-1000
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2016, 12:41:19 pm »

How are the print results with uncoated watercolour paper (e.g. Arches Hot Press)? The ink has a heavier pigment load than the previous generation of printers, and seems a bit more viscous as well, so I'm guessing it should do better gamut-wise.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Testing PRO-1000
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2016, 12:50:29 pm »

How are the print results with uncoated watercolour paper (e.g. Arches Hot Press)? The ink has a heavier pigment load than the previous generation of printers, and seems a bit more viscous as well, so I'm guessing it should do better gamut-wise.

Did you address this question to me or to Keith Cooper, or another poster?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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shadowblade

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Re: Testing PRO-1000
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2016, 01:08:07 pm »

Did you address this question to me or to Keith Cooper, or another poster?

To the thread in general, I guess, since this seems to be the thread for test results and experimentation with the Pro-1000...
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Testing PRO-1000
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2016, 01:53:26 pm »

OK; all my tested papers results for the Pro-1000 and the Epson Legacy papers in the P800 and the Canon Pro-1000 appear in my reviews of the Pro-1000 and the Epson Legacy papers on this website:

Epson Legacy Papers Review

Canon Pro-1000 review
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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marc aurel

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Re: Testing PRO-1000
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2016, 03:08:17 am »

Mark - thank you very much for your very detailed and informative review.

I try to decide between the p800 and the pro 1000 and have a question about the black level: is the black level of the pro 1000 with matte papers as good as with the p800? I tried to find out by comparing your pro 1000 review with you p800 review, but the papers used are different.

Regards -
Marc
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Testing PRO-1000
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2016, 10:10:43 am »

Mark - thank you very much for your very detailed and informative review.

I try to decide between the p800 and the pro 1000 and have a question about the black level: is the black level of the pro 1000 with matte papers as good as with the p800? I tried to find out by comparing your pro 1000 review with you p800 review, but the papers used are different.

Regards -
Marc

Please refer to Figure 7 in my review of the Epson Legacy papers on this website where you will find a plethora of information on B&W printing characteristics for 23 combinations of papers, printer, profiles.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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marc aurel

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Re: Testing PRO-1000
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2016, 10:24:24 am »

Please refer to Figure 7 in my review of the Epson Legacy papers on this website where you will find a plethora of information on B&W printing characteristics for 23 combinations of papers, printer, profiles.

Thanks Mark. Found it. That helps.
According to your numbers the P800 has slightly deeper blacks on matte papers, but only very little.
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