Will new Phase back design come at Photokina - maybe hold off purchase?

[narikin]

Was thinking to myself in the shower, how it's time for a new back design from Phase, the IQ series have been around for a long time, and its overdue for a generational shift.  The last one P series to IQ1, was over 5 years ago now. (Jan 2011)

If this is so, Photokina seems the likely launch, and again, if so... you may want to hold off that purchase of a new generation back till you have that new gen option. Too late for me, I have my IQ3-100 already. Silly man.  All just guesses though!

The million dollar question though, is who else will bring out the 100mp camera then, like maybe Sony themselves? I hope they do, despite my investment. Though my feeling is Sony will not do it till they have on-sensor PDAF incorporated there. Pentax & Fuji are in the running for the existing sensor though. Hasselblad is an obvious certainty, coming any week now.

[Doug Peterson]

I do not expect a generational shift in the short or mid term.

More likely at some point there will be an IQ4 series with continued improvements and new features. But with the IQ3 100mp being only 4 months old, I do not expect this in the short term.

I also do not expect any new entrants to the medium format game in the short or mid term. Full frame 35mm is a niche (compared to the volume of smaller sensor cameras). 44x33mm is an even smaller niche (Pentax, Leica, Team Phase One, Hassy). Full frame 645 is the smallest niche of all (Team Phase One, Hassy). Only one company (Team Phase One) has shown consistent profit and growth over the past several years in that smallest of niches. While Phase One is huge by small-company standards it is tiny by large corporate conglomerate standards. I don't expect that makes this corner of the market very attractive proposition for one of the Japanese camera companies.

[disclaimer: This represents a good-faith best guess from working closely with Phase One for the better part of a decade. It's not a promise and other opinions/guesses are equally valid.]

[narikin]

More likely at some point there will be an IQ4 series with continued improvements and new features. But with the IQ3 100mp being only 4 months old, I do not expect this in the short term.

Thanks Doug, yes, the IQ3 series is a few months old, but the  IQ generation, which is what I was talking about, is 5+ years old. That's a lifetime in digital technology. Have you looked at a 5 year old phone screen compared to today's latest?! Night and Day.

OLD should be on the next generation display. And they can drop that space hogging Firewire port, which is on no modern computer anymore.  Maybe a backup SDXC slot too? Just some thoughts.

[Doug Peterson]

Thanks Doug, yes, the IQ3 series is a few months old, but the  IQ generation, which is what I was talking about, is 5+ years old. That's a lifetime in digital technology. Have you looked at a 5 year old phone screen compared to today's latest?! Night and Day.

OLD should be on the next generation display. And they can drop that space hogging Firewire port, which is on no modern computer anymore.  Maybe a backup SDXC slot too? Just some thoughts.

5 years is quite a bit in digital terms, that's true. But if you ignore the dates of first release and I showed you an 1Dx, 5Ds, D810, and IQ3 100mp with the brand names hidden and asked you about the quality of the review interface (screen + touch/buttons/dials + menus + features) I think you'd pick the IQ3 100mp in a heart beat. So it's still cutting edge in that regard.

When they released the IQ1 they pulled a line from Steve Jobs and said they were 5 years ahead of everyone else at that time. Looking back with the benefit of hindsight I think, if anything, they were conservative in that estimation.

That said, I always welcome improvements, and your suggestions are all great!

[Jeffery Salter]

Why can't they spread them out?

BC

Thats a great question.  From my understanding it's something to do with:

Patents. 

http://www.google.com/patents/US8508652


The Phase Detect Sensor or auto focus sensors which go under the mirror in all medium format cameras are the same size as the ones that go into 35 mm cameras. 

A certain percentage of light or the image coming through the lens has to be diverted downwards to the Phase Detect Sensor for focus to be obtained. A smallish AF sensor equals a small amount of auto focus points in the camera.

The above reasons contribute to why:

Pentax 645Z only has "multiple points clustered in the center"

Hassy has the TrueFocus

Phase One is developing the Honeybee Autofocus Platform (HAP-1).

Not sure what Leica is doing.

But when MFD companies come up with a way to spread focus points from Kingdom come...They will.  And charge you accordingly. 

[eronald]

Panasonic has depth from defocus. Panasonic very humbly admitted that one camera could beat the GH4 when released, on AF speed, the ... D4.

Edmund

Thats a great question.  From my understanding it's something to do with:

Patents. 

http://www.google.com/patents/US8508652


The Phase Detect Sensor or auto focus sensors which go under the mirror in all medium format cameras are the same size as the ones that go into 35 mm cameras. 

A certain percentage of light or the image coming through the lens has to be diverted downwards to the Phase Detect Sensor for focus to be obtained. A smallish AF sensor equals a small amount of auto focus points in the camera.

The above reasons contribute to why:

Pentax 645Z only has "multiple points clustered in the center"

Hassy has the TrueFocus

Phase One is developing the Honeybee Autofocus Platform (HAP-1).

Not sure what Leica is doing.

But when MFD companies come up with a way to spread focus points from Kingdom come...They will.  And charge you accordingly. 

[Joe Towner]

Hassy has an announcement on the 7th, so that'll be interesting - especially if it isn't including the 100mp chip.

Phase can do a lot within the IQ lineup, and really, other than changing up the storage medium and pissing off lots of folks by dropping FW800, what is there to really change?  If it were to be changed, they'd have done it with the IQ3 series, as those are tied to the XF body.  I think we'll have an XF+ body before they get out of the IQ series (IQ4/IQ5 area?).  For no other reason, the IQ1/2/3 lineup are easy to identify features wise, and can contrast between themselves unlike the P/P+ backs before them.

-Joe

[eronald]

A new CMOS sensor could bring fast main-sensor AF like the Sony cameras, and pavebthe way for mirrorless. I expect the electronics are unchanged.

Edmund

Hassy has an announcement on the 7th, so that'll be interesting - especially if it isn't including the 100mp chip.

Phase can do a lot within the IQ lineup, and really, other than changing up the storage medium and pissing off lots of folks by dropping FW800, what is there to really change?  If it were to be changed, they'd have done it with the IQ3 series, as those are tied to the XF body.  I think we'll have an XF+ body before they get out of the IQ series (IQ4/IQ5 area?).  For no other reason, the IQ1/2/3 lineup are easy to identify features wise, and can contrast between themselves unlike the P/P+ backs before them.

-Joe

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

That's a good point. But, I would think that on sensor PDAF needs to be combined with CDAF for accuracy and that needs special built lenses.

A technical camera is essentially a mirrorless camera, with good live view it could be used without a viewfinder or a sliding back. The technical cameras we have today lack aperture and shutter integration, except the HCam B1 and the Alpa FPS that integrate with Canon EF-lenses. Don't know about Arca's offerings.

Best regards
Erik

A new CMOS sensor could bring fast main-sensor AF like the Sony cameras, and pavebthe way for mirrorless. I expect the electronics are unchanged.

Edmund

[landscapephoto]

There was an interesting post in this thread a few hours ago. If I remember correctly, it congratulated Doug for his constant work, but also wondered about the necessity of workshops to be able to master a MF camera. It is a pity this post was removed.

My feeling on the subject is that the peculiar Phase One business model which we have witnessed the last years is about to change considerably.

[Christopher]

Why should it change ? I don't find my XF more complicated than a d800 or a Sony. It's just important that one spends a little time getting to know the camera. Workshops might help, but certainly aren't necessary.


Christopher Hauser
ch@chauser.eu

[DrakeJ]

Why should it change ? I don't find my XF more complicated than a d800 or a Sony. It's just important that one spends a little time getting to know the camera. Workshops might help, but certainly aren't necessary.


Christopher Hauser
ch@chauser.eu

I received a demo XF with an IQ350 to play with over the weekend, received a 15 minutes instruction and had no problem using it. And I've never used medium format before.

[JoeKitchen]

There was an interesting post in this thread a few hours ago. If I remember correctly, it congratulated Doug for his constant work, but also wondered about the necessity of workshops to be able to master a MF camera. It is a pity this post was removed.

My feeling on the subject is that the peculiar Phase One business model which we have witnessed the last years is about to change considerably.

For me, and many other photographers I know, I can't see the reason for any training.  Other then some trouble shooting for about 15 to 20 minutes, most photographers should be able to pick up the camera and go.

The only issue I can think of with the XF is not knowing everything it can do.  Shooting with it should be easy, but using all of the ancillary features, or knowing they exist, could be worth an hour of training. 

Tech cameras are a different story.  I learned off of a 4x5 camera and shot with one exclusively for about 5 years, so for me, it easy.  My dealer did sit down with me for about an hour going over the camera, which was nice.  I could others needing a lot of time to get the hang of it. 

Now, from what I hear, more then half of the millennials out here are going throughout college with just an iPhone.  (Seriously, I knew someone interviewing interns who had used nothing but an iPhone.)  So there, training will probably be needed, but I blame the schools for that. 

[landscapephoto]

Why should it change ?

Should is not the word I would use. I have no particular interest in the business model changing. But, for whom is paying attention to little details, it seems that the business is changing: more competition is coming to the market, the market itself is changing with traditional pro photographers having less need for MF, even forums like this one are changing and direct themselves to a different user base, if they can find one. Different dealers are coming to the market as well, at least in Europe and probably also in Asia.

As to workshops, I did not really paid enough attention myself to notice there was a market for them. But the now deleted post told this story of an assistant with good diplomas who believed a workshop was necessary, even when the poster offered to lend him (or was it her?) his MF cameras for an afternoon for free. (I hope I am telling the story correctly, I did not save the post and may not recall all details). Seems weird, but that was the story.