Does Dibond contain OBAs?

[shadowblade]

Lots of places are now printing directly onto Dibond, or onto the back of glass and acrylic panels which can then be backed with Dibond. They're suitable for outdoor display - the inks are very lightfast and the Dibond panels themselves are physically durable. But how about the white coating on the surface of Dibond that forms the print surface? Anyone know if this is OBA-free and colour-stable? Unfortunately, I don't have a UV source and a piece of unprinted Dibond around at the moment...

[stcstc31]

would of said pigmented inks would be lot more stable than flatbed uv stuff long term no. uv stuff is designed for relatively short term use. 5-10 years etc

[shadowblade]

would of said pigmented inks would be lot more stable than flatbed uv stuff long term no. uv stuff is designed for relatively short term use. 5-10 years etc

That's 10 years outdoors, under direct sunlight, even in Australian conditions (i.e. very strong UV light all year).

[Wayne Fox]

is the Dibond have a receptor coating?  standard disband is aluminum ... no oba's.  If it had a white receptor coating, then that could contain oba's.

[shadowblade]

is the Dibond have a receptor coating?  standard disband is aluminum ... no oba's.  If it had a white receptor coating, then that could contain oba's.

No, it doesn't have a receptor coating. UV inks don't need one. It's available in all sorts of colours, including a plain aluminium surface. When printing photos, you're likely printing on the white one.

[MHMG]

No, it doesn't have a receptor coating. UV inks don't need one. It's available in all sorts of colours, including a plain aluminium surface. When printing photos, you're likely printing on the white one.

Thus, you have very likely answered your own question. No OBA's in titanium white base  formulations for house paints, either. The whitening agents in house paints essentially consist of TiO2 pigments (lead white pigments used in historic white paint formulations now deemed environmentally hazardous)... no OBA's included nor are they needed. Very easy to confirm. I don't have any white Dibond on hand to do this simple test, but shine a UV blacklight on the white coated Dibond surface, and it will glow if OBAS impregnated and not if TiO2 pigment only

[shadowblade]

Thus, you have very likely answered your own question. No OBA's in titanium white base  formulations for house paints, either. The whitening agents in house paints essentially consist of TiO2 pigments (lead white pigments used in historic white paint formulations now deemed environmentally hazardous)... no OBA's included nor are they needed. Very easy to confirm. I don't have any white Dibond on hand to do this simple test, but shine a UV blacklight on the white coated Dibond surface, and it will glow if OBAS impregnated and not if TiO2 pigment only

I wasn't aware white/coloured Dibond was just painted - I had assumed it was some sort of pigmented polyester or other polymer coating. Any risk of it cracking, flaking or peeling, like white-painted weatherboard houses or ship hulls?

I don't have a UV light or a piece of white Dibond around either - was wondering if anyone else did!

[Ernst Dinkla]

I wasn't aware white/coloured Dibond was just painted - I had assumed it was some sort of pigmented polyester or other polymer coating. Any risk of it cracking, flaking or peeling, like white-painted weatherboard houses or ship hulls?

I don't have a UV light or a piece of white Dibond around either - was wondering if anyone else did!

The way the coating is applied does not indicate how the bond will be. What I recall of the original Alucobond is a polyester coating with no details how it was applied. Today it can be PVDF or another exotic polymer. Could be sprayed, curtain, rolled-on or even a powder coating. I bet curtain coating and UV curing. The coating will be applied roll to roll on the aluminium before both layers of them are fused to the polyethylene core. The aluminium will be prepared to give a better bond on both sides, to the paint and to the core. For white, TiO2 is the pigment most likely used. Alucobond could be had one side with color and the other side bare aluminium, aluminium varnished or both sides color coated. For the DiBond we discus it is usually coated white on both sides and there is a quality with a more receptive coating for solvent inkjet inks. I tested a Chinese version with a UV lamp and a stack of Teflon tape as a reference, the last is OBA free, the composite sheet did not reflect a bluer color than the Teflon. There is an inexpensive UV torch called Perel EFL41UV with 9 LEDS that emit UV at 395-400 NM. I use that one but there are other ones with shifted spectral output; http://www.amazon.com/Urparcel-Professional-Inspection-Flashlight-380-385nm/dp/B0013E3XVU  Different UV sources may make another tool to check for similarity/difference between inkjet papers that I can not detect with the spectrometer.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[shadowblade]

The way the coating is applied does not indicate how the bond will be. What I recall of the original Alucobond is a polyester coating with no details how it was applied. Today it can be PVDF or another exotic polymer. Could be sprayed, curtain, rolled-on or even a powder coating. I bet curtain coating and UV curing. The coating will be applied roll to roll on the aluminium before both layers of them are fused to the polyethylene core. The aluminium will be prepared to give a better bond on both sides, to the paint and to the core. For white, TiO2 is the pigment most likely used. Alucobond could be had one side with color and the other side bare aluminium, aluminium varnished or both sides color coated. For the DiBond we discus it is usually coated white on both sides and there is a quality with a more receptive coating for solvent inkjet inks. I tested a Chinese version with a UV lamp and a stack of Teflon tape as a reference, the last is OBA free, the composite sheet did not reflect a bluer color than the Teflon. There is an inexpensive UV torch called Perel EFL41UV with 9 LEDS that emit UV at 395-400 NM. I use that one but there are other ones with shifted spectral output; http://www.amazon.com/Urparcel-Professional-Inspection-Flashlight-380-385nm/dp/B0013E3XVU  Different UV sources may make another tool to check for similarity/difference between inkjet papers that I can not detect with the spectrometer.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

Not just the substrate-to-coating bond, but the coating-to-coating bond - I would suspect a continuous sheet of polyester is less likely to crack, flake or disintegrate than a paint or coating with nothing in particular holding one part to the next, although it is just susceptible to peeling off as the paint.

I'm guessing the aluminium panels are anodised or otherwise roughened on a microscopic scale, in order to greatly increase the surface area available for bonding.

[Ernst Dinkla]

The white coating is a very thin layer and will bond way better applied as a paint and then cured than as a foil and glued or fused. The curing will improve the hardness of the coating. Roll to roll coating with a 5 micron primer and a 20 micron topcoat is what I see mentioned for aluminium.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[shadowblade]

The white coating is a very thin layer and will bond way better applied as a paint and then cured than as a foil and glued or fused. The curing will improve the hardness of the coating. Roll to roll coating with a 5 micron primer and a 20 micron topcoat is what I see mentioned for aluminium.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

Fair enough - makes sense. So it's applied as a primer and then a paint, and then baked on (like enamel)?

Anodised titanium looks interesting, too - unlike aluminium, it can be anodised to a neutral white. Not too expensive all things considered, but it's difficult to cut, so not often used.

[deanwork]

I have a large number of clients, including myself, who like to have their pigment inkjet  prints mounted on dibond. This dibond is usually painted with a white or black acrylic paint.

Does anyone have any info on the long term stability issues with mounting on diabond with an acid free adhesive. I know the photographer Sugimoti has had his bw gelatin silver prints mounted on dibond for a long time. He also made the statement in an interview that he had been told that aluminum will release sulfuric compounds into the back of the print in the long term that could discolor prints. So he has his prints mounted to 4 ply rag board before mounting to the dibond.

I can't find any info online about the long term implications of mounting to dibond, or even any significant data on the adhesives used. Does anyone have any idea?

I know the ultimate method would be to dry mount the prints to 4 ply rag board and then mount that rag board to the dibond with PVA book binding glue,  but I can't see myself going to all that hassle and expense unless it is going into a museum.

john

[shadowblade]

I have a large number of clients, including myself, who like to have their pigment inkjet  prints mounted on dibond. This dibond is usually painted with a white or black acrylic paint.

Does anyone have any info on the long term stability issues with mounting on diabond with an acid free adhesive. I know the photographer Sugimoti has had his bw gelatin silver prints mounted on dibond for a long time. He also made the statement in an interview that he had been told that aluminum will release sulfuric compounds into the back of the print in the long term that could discolor prints. So he has his prints mounted to 4 ply rag board before mounting to the dibond.

I can't find any info online about the long term implications of mounting to dibond, or even any significant data on the adhesives used. Does anyone have any idea?

I know the ultimate method would be to dry mount the prints to 4 ply rag board and then mount that rag board to the dibond with PVA book binding glue,  but I can't see myself going to all that hassle and expense unless it is going into a museum.

john

I don't know why it would.

Aluminium reacts with oxygen in air more-or-less instantly to form an impervious oxide layer, which stops further oxidation or aluminium-induced catalysis. Anodising it only increases the protection by thickening the oxide layer.

[deanwork]

You would think that all these high-end mounting places that do work for museums in NY and LA, etc, would have information on these properties of dibond but no one is posting any. I would be nice if there were studies out there but it's hard to find any, even on the adhesives, much less the dibond.

john

I don't know why it would.

Aluminium reacts with oxygen in air more-or-less instantly to form an impervious oxide layer, which stops further oxidation or aluminium-induced catalysis. Anodising it only increases the protection by thickening the oxide layer.

[dgberg]

I do understand that everyone wants this stuff to last a lifetime,but is it practical to expect?
I want my work to last forever too but still only warranty it for a year. The craftsmanship I can control.
Someone elses materials I can not. Most if not all vendors will not warranty materials after they are mounted and delivered to the client.
So basically you are on your own. Which makes for vetting your materials and suppliers very important
Your warranty from vendors pretty much extends to shipment damage or some other material flaw noticed before mounting.
My work is probably far different then what some of you are trying to perfect.
Homeowners travel and family photographs. Photo enthusiests landscape and nature work. Photo club contests printing and mounting plus some artists digital reproduction on canvas.
Average hanging life for this type of photography is around 7 years.

In my cabinetry days we did one after another $25,000 to $35,000 large home office projects.
My warranty for craftsmanship and materials was 5 years. More then several million dollars worth of stuff built in 5 states.
Call backs in 27 years,1.  Just have to keep the worrying in perspective

[deanwork]

Your right we are selling to a completely different clientele.

[shadowblade]

You would think that all these high-end mounting places that do work for museums in NY and LA, etc, would have information on these properties of dibond but no one is posting any. I would be nice if there were studies out there but it's hard to find any, even on the adhesives, much less the dibond.

john

I guess the aluminium oxide coating could catalyse the formation of elemental sulfur via the Claus process... if it were placed in a high-temperature environment rich in hydrogen sulfide gas.

It would be nice to know exactly what adhesives were being used, though. I suspect polyvinyl acetate, derivatives of polyvinyl alcohol and methacrylates would be high on the list.

That said, for direct printing, there probably aren't many substrates more stable and durable than aluminium sheet. If a white background is desired, painted or enamelled Dibond would be better than coated aluminium sheet, since it is more dimensionally-stable and thus less prone to developing surface cracks. Otherwise, anodised titanium can also be made white by applying the correct voltage during the anodising process. Ceramics, perhaps, but, then, there's the problem of cutting them to size and shape.

For aqueous inkjet prints displayed without glass/framing, it might be hard to go past stretched canvas. Once it's printed and saturated in Timeless, it's essentially a single unit - a polymer layer reinforced by cotton/polyester fibres and incorporating the image layer within it - stretched around a frame, to which it is attached by easily-replaceable staples or nails. No substrate or glue to react with, nothing to delaminate, no bond to fail.

[shadowblade]

I do understand that everyone wants this stuff to last a lifetime,but is it practical to expect?
I want my work to last forever too but still only warranty it for a year. The craftsmanship I can control.
Someone elses materials I can not. Most if not all vendors will not warranty materials after they are mounted and delivered to the client.
So basically you are on your own. Which makes for vetting your materials and suppliers very important
Your warranty from vendors pretty much extends to shipment damage or some other material flaw noticed before mounting.
My work is probably far different then what some of you are trying to perfect.
Homeowners travel and family photographs. Photo enthusiests landscape and nature work. Photo club contests printing and mounting plus some artists digital reproduction on canvas.
Average hanging life for this type of photography is around 7 years.

In my cabinetry days we did one after another $25,000 to $35,000 large home office projects.
My warranty for craftsmanship and materials was 5 years. More then several million dollars worth of stuff built in 5 states.
Call backs in 27 years,1.  Just have to keep the worrying in perspective

Don't forget, these mounting/display longevity issues are relevant not just to photography, but also to original paintings and drawings, which can't just be reprinted.

Many, many institutions have portraits and paintings hundreds of years old, of members or founders long dead and events long-forgotten. Some appear to be in perfect condition, others haven't held up so well. If they're displaying a photo I took next to some of these relics, I'd like it to look as good in 400 years too.

[dgberg]

Thats a whole different story, I agree.

[deanwork]

Thing is we have had first class research done on photo materials, digitql and analogue, primarily because they are so disparite in quality that they have to be tested, but we don't have the same kind of research invested into mounting materials.

We do know from RIT that dry mounting with good thermo plastics has turned out to be a very viable method of mounting, when mounting to rag boards. And even protects the gelatin silver prints! And we know that mounting with PVA book binders glue is excellent for very long term stability and chemical free content. We know that plexi yellows.

 But in this era most of us are not dry mounting to rag board anymore or using wet glue, we're mounting to dibond or sentra, or worse and there are just no verifiable figures on this stuff (and it ain't cheap to do boys). I put the blame on galleries and museum personnel. They just don't seem to know or care about anything in this regard anymore. They should know, it's their job. But we live in a throw away culture. What else is new.

Really the safest way to mount a pigment print is to matt it behind a rag matt on a rag mount and frame behind glass or plexi. Only problem with that is it is considered old fashioned, and maybe it is. I don't even like to show prints like that anymore and I'm  a fascist when it comes to longevity.

Was hoping Mark at Aardenburg would chime in. He knows more than all the rest of us put together.

John

Thats a whole different story, I agree.
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