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Author Topic: Used medium format gear - buying guidance needed  (Read 5451 times)

debabrata.ray

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Used medium format gear - buying guidance needed
« on: March 29, 2016, 05:22:37 am »

Hello all Good people!

I need some advice. I'm in the market for used digital medium format gear. There's a Hasselblad H4D 40 with a 100mm f/2.2 and a 50-110 f/3.5-4.5 selling for $7300. The user sold it to someone who bought it through a leasing agreement for 3years and now that the lease is over they're returning the rig. The exposure count on the items are as follows:

Camera: 26000 exposures,  the 110mm has 22000 exposures and the zoom has 10000 exposures.

Do you think the price is reasonable?  I'll obviously want to look at the gear before I buy it,  but anything else I should be aware of or should keep in mind?   Is the price reasonable?

Thanks in advance for your suggestions and guidance!

Cheers!

Debabrata
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Used medium format gear - buying guidance needed
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2016, 07:33:34 am »

 I'll say what I always say. It is better to start with determining what you need and what would serve that need, and then looking for a good deal on that thing. When you start with finding a deal and evaluate whether it is right for you, you are more likely to end up with equipment that does not suit you well.

A low price on gear that isn't right for you isn't much good in the end.

Think about it like buying a home. First you decide where, and then you decide if you care about particular attributes (architectural style, number of rooms, etc), and then you start looking for actual homes and trying to find one you think is both a good deal, and inside your budget, and then you look to see if there are any "gotchyas".

I would have given this advice regardless of what brand/kit and price you posted.

Note: you may have already done the above due dilligence and research and decided that this kind of kit is what you wanted. If so, please accept my apologies for the pulpit speech as we only know about you what you've posted here.

Welcome to LL. I hope you'll stick around regardless!

Chris Livsey

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Re: Used medium format gear - buying guidance needed
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2016, 08:50:22 am »

Hi welcome I am a user, not a pro, I can agree with Doug.
The 100mm is a well regarded portrait lens, not often seen S/H it tends to be a keeper, but if you are not shooting portraits/weddings it is less good for Macro,Landscapes. The Zoom is BIG and HEAVY whilst being versatile and has a reputation of equalling the prime equivalents, if you are walking around shooting it is a lot to carry for leisure. The H4D40 is a crop sensor, most are, but that is quite a crop, the series was greatly reduced at the end of line in pricing.
As Doug says you may have done your research and this deal is a fit component wise and we are just looking at cost but I remain to be convinced. What are you shooting, what now in gear, what are you looking for in MFD, does this fit those requirements? It reads like a wedding kit to me, but you need a backup for that, is that budgeted for?
I know you came for a quick answer on cost but like you say you need to see it, so would we to judge condition, is the software up to date, has someone cared for the kit or hammered it?
We want a positive outcome for you, it sounds a bit like a friend of a friend deal, that gives you zero return or warranty rights.
On price look at Hasselblad "approved" / used, I am UK but there is a USA site, then look at e-bay completed, draw up a table with the differences, more research, but you may have the cart in front of the horse, a deal is not a deal worth having if that zoom sits unused and you end up selling on with more hassle. Finally don't dismiss a Phase One back on a H body many find that the best of both worlds and other threads here attest to the deals to be had on their older backs.
Final tip: take that gear list and ring a dealer, say you are selling what's the offer? Remember there is a floor on the price as Hasselblad have a trade in price against new gear for the body.

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Endeavour

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Re: Used medium format gear - buying guidance needed
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2016, 09:49:14 am »

... Finally don't dismiss a Phase One back on a H body many find that the best of both worlds and other threads here attest to the deals to be had on their older backs.
..

Except isnt the H4D a closed system, so you cant use a P1 back on it?

I have a P30+ on my Hasselblad H1 and I'm very happy with that combo - but should I wish to change I know I can switch backs later on down the line for another P1 or H back

AS above, It would help if you said what you intended to use the kit for.
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jamgolf

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Re: Used medium format gear - buying guidance needed
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2016, 10:07:16 am »

Debabrata>>>>Do you think the price is reasonable?

Lets look at this a bit differently...
Decent copies of HC 100/2.2 and 50-110 sell for ~$2500 each.
So even if you decide to sell later you can expect to get approximately $2500 each for the lenses.
That means you are getting the H4D 40 for $2300.
Considering clean copies of H1/H2 camera bodies sell for $1K, that means you would be getting a decent MF digital back for $1300.

Sounds pretty fair to me.
If you can score the kit for $7K that would be even better :)
Good luck !
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 10:14:55 am by jamgolf »
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Theodoros

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Re: Used medium format gear - buying guidance needed
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2016, 11:04:34 am »

Except isnt the H4D a closed system, so you cant use a P1 back on it?


No it's not... The H4X is an "open" (to third party and CF backs for H fit) "camera"... The H5X is additionally "open" to other H5D camera backs, the H4D is an upgraded version of the H3DII, the backs of it, can't be shared with the H4X, nor with the H5X...
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debabrata.ray

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Re: Used medium format gear - buying guidance needed
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2016, 12:36:46 pm »

Thanks a lot to everyone who responded and for some really thought provoking statements there. So here's why I'm looking at medium format and my intended applications of it:
1. My primary area of usage is going to be portraits. I primarily shoot Fashion, Beauty & Portraits and those too I love to shoot mostly On-location using a mix of Ambient lights and Strobes. I do shoot in a studio as well - however if I look at my work it would probably be a 70:30 mix between On-location vs Studio shoots. You can view my portfolio at http://www.instagram.com/debrayphotography or on behance on https://www.behance.net/debabratard1e8- this will give you an idea of the kind of pictures I shoot. My ultimate aim - fine-art environmental portraiture to produce life-size gallery quality prints.
2. Landscapes - another area of interest for me is landscapes & cityscapes - and although not a primary focus area - however I do love to shoot landscapes & cityscapes - when I'm in the right place at the right time...You can see some of my work on my blog https://drpictures.wordpress.com/
3. Why MF? - Maybe Medium format is not the answer, but I'm gathering insights at this point in time to be able to take an informed decision. So here's what I'm thinking - I need a camera system which can help me achieve the following:
3.1. Create life size / large prints for galleries & exhibitions or high quality prints for magazines / editorial submissions.
3.2. Higher sync speeds to overpower the sun - I'm not a fan of HSS as the throughput is suboptimal and ND filters don't do much good to the focus systems. However I'm interested in seeing use-cases of what Hi Sync from systems such as the Elinchrom ELB 400s can do. I understand the way they operate, however I haven't seen filmed use-cases of Elinchroms or Priolites in the kind of scenarios I'm looking to use the system - for e.g. shooting outdoor environmental portraits overpowering the sun with a shallow depth of field (think Joey L). I'd love to see examples of this with the Pentax 645z or the Canon 5Ds / 5DsR (even though the 5Ds and 5DsR have limited DR and High ISO capabilities -  i know I won't need High ISO most of the time - but it might come in handy- especially when I'm trying to balance ambient with Flash - just eases on the power of the flashes a bit).
3.3 The medium format DOF and smooth transitions from areas of highlights to shadows

What would be your views considering the above and what would you do if you were in my position?

Cheers!
Debabrata
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Joe Towner

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Re: Used medium format gear - buying guidance needed
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2016, 12:11:55 pm »

Did a quick flip through your Instagram.  Full disclosure, I'm a Hass shooter, who loves both Phase and Pentax for specific reasons.

Do you shoot tethered currently, as I saw CaptureOne in one of the shots?  To be blunt, if CaptureOne is your work flow of choice, forget the Hasselblad.

How much MF gear have you worked with?  Any film MF gear?  How autofocus dependent are you?  How fast or slow do you currently work, as MF could really slow you down.

Can you do everything with a 5Ds/R or a A7R II using Canon glass, yes.  The upside is you can use CaptureOne with these cameras.  You haven't said what you're currently shooting with, and what's holding you back.

What's your budget for this?  $7,300 is an ok price, but is it ok for you?  What local resources do you you have for rentals, and how far is the closest Hasselblad repair shop?  Who is the closest dealer in Hasselblad or Phase One?

You say life size and gallery prints, but really, what does that mean to you?  40MP will work, but if you crop it to a 2:3 ratio, you're better off with 35mm gear.  50MP either CCD or CMOS can do a lot, and I've done some amazing 36x48 prints.  Folks make amazing photos with even older backs, but that's again personal preference and they know how to extract every little advantage.
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Endeavour

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Re: Used medium format gear - buying guidance needed
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2016, 12:47:57 pm »

To be blunt, if CaptureOne is your work flow of choice, forget the Hasselblad.


why is that?
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Paul2660

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Re: Used medium format gear - buying guidance needed
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2016, 01:21:39 pm »

why is that?

C1 only support Phase One Medium Format raw, so Hasselblad is not supported, or Pentax, or Lecia.

Paul C
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jamgolf

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Re: Used medium format gear - buying guidance needed
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2016, 04:16:16 pm »

C1 only support Phase One Medium Format raw, so Hasselblad is not supported, or Pentax, or Lecia.

Paul C

Paul, this might be officially true but when I owned a Pentax 645D and Leica M9 I always processed the DNG files in Capture One. I have not owned Photoshop or Lightroom - ever. Capture One has been my post processing tool of choice for Nikon D200, D700, D800, Pentax 645D, Leica M9 and now Credo 60. I preferred C1 processing engine to Nikon Capture NX even.

I have never owned a Hasselblad back, so I have no first-hand experience in that regard.
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Joe Towner

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Re: Used medium format gear - buying guidance needed
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2016, 05:23:27 pm »

why is that?

Easy, Hasselblad will never be supported, and the Pentax DNG hack is just that, a hack (though old versions may just work because they're not blocking based on the DNG info).  If the workflow is CaptureOne, and you want to work tethered, you really need to stick with an out of the box solution.
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eronald

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Re: Used medium format gear - buying guidance needed
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2016, 07:26:57 pm »

C1 only support Phase One Medium Format raw, so Hasselblad is not supported, or Pentax, or Lecia.

Paul C

Hassy have their own converter called Phocus. It is free, and on the Mac it will convert most SLR files as well using the standard Mac Aperture Raw definitions. I'm not saying Phocus is the best,  but it does work well, yielding conversions that are at least as good as Lightroom.

Edmund
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Paul2660

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Re: Used medium format gear - buying guidance needed
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2016, 07:33:21 pm »

Hassy have their own converter called Phocus. It is free, and on the Mac it will convert most SLR files as well using the standard Mac Aperture Raw definitions. I'm not saying Phocus is the best,  but it does work well, yielding conversions that are at least as good as Lightroom.

Edmund

C1 DB is also free to all Phase One backs, so as Phocus is free for Hasselblad.  C1 IMO has a bit more to offer, but that is just my opinion.

Paul C
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eronald

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Re: Used medium format gear - buying guidance needed
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2016, 12:55:56 am »

C1 DB is also free to all Phase One backs, so as Phocus is free for Hasselblad.  C1 IMO has a bit more to offer, but that is just my opinion.

Paul C

I agree with you 100%, C1 is head and shoulders better than Phocus as postprocessing software. On the other hand, when you want to take the picture and compare an old-style Phase body to a H4 or H5 Hassy, the Hassy is -in my opinion- well in front as a photographer's tool.

For people with an SLR, unfortunately, C1 costs money - although there always seem to be some giveaways with memory cards etc.
Anyway,  it's easy to compare: Phocus is free, Irident has a trial that marks images, and C1 has a 1 month trial.

Edmund

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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Used medium format gear - buying guidance needed
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2016, 01:31:01 am »

Hi,

I guess it depends on user needs. Hasselblad has a very well colour processing pipeline, at least according to Anders Torger, and I think it has very good correction of optical errors. Keep in mind that Hasselblad relaxed design criteria a bit and makes a lot of corrections in postprocessing. Phocus has access to both lens design data and shift and tilt parameters from the HTS system. So, if you have a TIFF based workflow with Phocus just doing the raw conversion it would be a good tool.

Personally, I use Lightroom. Lightroom is a very good workflow solution. Many Lightroom users almost never leave Lightroom. The parametric workflow of Lightroom has many advantages. To begin with you always use the full information in the raw file and develop when needed. If Adobe ever would fix their demosaic issues, you could just switch to that new processing pipeline, now need to rework your images. In theory… Lightroom also has a well documented handling of colour profiles and easy to use GUI tools to create profiles. (IMHO the Adobe DNG Profile Editor is much preferable to the dumbed down tool from Xrite called ColorChecker Passport)

Capture One has a much better handling of non OLP filtered raw data than Lightroom, although the concept of non OLP filtered data is both broken and unfixable, but Capture One creates fewer artefacts and suppresses the remaining ones better. It is also said to yield better colour, tonality etc, at least at default settings. I never found C1 works for me, but it is a very good product. But Phase One doesn't really support other MFD than Team Phase One.

Personally, I am happy with Lightroom. If I need a better demosaicer, I do a raw conversion to TIFF using RawTherapee and apply correction to that TIFF in Lightroom.

I used to shoot Hasselblad 555/ELD on a P45+ in parallell to 24x36mm but I am pretty sure that system is now put to pasture since I got my Sony A7rII, that does all the tricks I want , but don't necessarily need. Those tricks are tilt and shift, live view…

Best regards
Erik










C1 DB is also free to all Phase One backs, so as Phocus is free for Hasselblad.  C1 IMO has a bit more to offer, but that is just my opinion.

Paul C
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 01:43:34 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Theodoros

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Re: Used medium format gear - buying guidance needed
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2016, 08:54:39 am »

why is that?

Because others make as good backs (or much better if the back has MS true colour ability -which P1 doesn't offer at all) at much less price... If they would support Hasselblad or Sinarbacks, P1 would be forced to sell less backs and at much more competitive price...  ;) Don't worry about it though... Phocus is as good as C1 for image quality and the functions it is missing, one can replace by using PS (after developing the 3FR file) on the TIFF file (in the rare case that he'll need to do so)...
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Paul2660

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Re: Used medium format gear - buying guidance needed
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2016, 09:55:58 am »

Because others make as good backs (or much better if the back has MS true colour ability -which P1 doesn't offer at all) at much less price... If they would support Hasselblad or Sinarbacks, P1 would be forced to sell less backs and at much more competitive price...  ;) Don't worry about it though... Phocus is as good as C1 for image quality and the functions it is missing, one can replace by using PS (after developing the 3FR file) on the TIFF file (in the rare case that he'll need to do so)...

I guess it's also fair to ask, why does Phocus not support IIQ from Phase One? or do they? 

Also does Phocus support DSLR's and APC cameras?  from Sony, Fuji, Nikon Canon etc.

It's all a matter of what you are after, for me Capture One has an excellent feature set, and allows for a very powerful raw processing tool, equal to LR.  Both LR and C1 have issues, and neither software has 100% of what I need, but I rarely do anything in Photoshop CC anymore as both LR and C1 have overall better tools for raw conversion and their tools sets are excellent. 

I also feel that if you are needing to tether, the Phase One offerings are excellent, along with C1, and work great in the field with either Wifi/iPad or USB3 to Surface pro type machines.

It's a great selling tool for Phase One in that they have Capture One, and for all Phase One backs, the full function code is free, and now I believe it's also free full function for Sony users.

Theodoros and I will never agree, that's for sure, but I do tire of such one sided pointed arguments against one company.  There is something for everyone out there and thus you need to try a lot of it before you purchase anything to find a solution that best fits for you.

Paul C
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debabrata.ray

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Re: Used medium format gear - buying guidance needed
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2016, 11:35:03 am »

Thanks Paul, Edmund, Erik and others for your valuable feedback. Yes Phase One is part of my workflow - and I just love the output that i get out of converting my RAW files on P1. I haven't shot much tethered though. I currently use a 5DMkIII with a variety of lenses. Reading through all your viewpoints I too am starting to lean towards an A7RII with the Metabones MkIV smart adapter for using my Canon glass. The only down-side I see of the A7RII is its battery life - but a battery grip and a few extra batteries should solve that problem. The only reason why I'm a bit hesitant about the 5DS or 5DSR models is because of their limited DR and ISO range - If I were strictly . I think I'm going to maybe rent some MF gear and also try out a pair of Elinchrom ELBs in Hi-Sync mode and see how that works out. I'll keep everyone posted here and thanks for your views.
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Theodoros

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Re: Used medium format gear - buying guidance needed
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2016, 11:43:47 am »

I guess it's also fair to ask, why does Phocus not support IIQ from Phase One? or do they? 


It's a payback...  ;) I suppose they think at someday that they can move ahead in functions too... (I doubt that though...)


Also does Phocus support DSLR's and APC cameras?  from Sony, Fuji, Nikon Canon etc.


Yes it does.... it's free too...
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