The P1 XF Autofocus, future possibilities?

[DrakeJ]

I've been trying to find solid information as to what Phase One has for possibilities to upgrade the autofocus system (HAP-1, Honeybee etc) in the XF.

There's a lot of obscurity out there, some hint that they have the possibility to be able to move the autofocus point. The latest autofocus upgrade promised better "handheld" autofocus, whatever that means? I have a demo coming up so perhaps I'll find out then.

From watching interviews with P1, I can only discern that they have one CMOS sensor smack in the middle and all technology they've put into it is there to ensure precise autofocus. But reading between the lines, the "upgradeability" is only there to further improve this one autofocus point, not make it moveable.

Is there anyone out there that actually knows if it's technically possible for them to make it moveable?

[razrblck]

There's some more info on slides from the Credo support announcement (source).

In particular, this image shows the AF sensor itself.

• Can measure focus on all kind of patterns
• Full flexible design for further optimization as it is not limited by physical layout of hardware

This means that the full sensor is able to focus (phase detection, contrast detection or both?). Are they be able to move the focus point around? Yes, though it would be very limited by the number of pixels used by the point and how big the sensor actually is. Will they do it? Maybe not.

What they could do, instead, is implement different patterns to improve shooting. They already have spot, which is very tight, and average which has a larger spread. A very useful pattern would be face detection, or even eye detection if there's enough resolution for that.

[DrakeJ]

Interesting information. However, I've read that the area the sensor covers is what is shown in the viewfinder. I haven't yet looked into the viewfinder, but from looking at the manual and the coverage of the "average AF area" seems pretty small.

So if you can only have a moveable focus point within that area, it basically serves no purpose.

[Doug Peterson]

There are many things the XF can be upgraded to do in the future. In the most recent updates they provided focus stacking, time lapse, and HDR sequencing. In a previous update they added a hyper focus mode and vibration-avoidance-triggering based off the seismograph tool along with a bullseye level for when you're balancing the camera at a lower angle. The list of future tools under consideration is extensive and exciting and limited mainly by prioritization and the desire to keep the interface Scandanavian Simple while allowing powerful operation.

Moving the location of the physical AF sensor is not one of those things. The AF sensor itself is where it is.

[Paul2660]

It is a bit interesting that Phase/Mamiya implemented the AF as they did on the XF. 

The body has some excellent advancements, but the single AF point is definitely not one of them.  Focus/recompose does not work in most of my shooting setups and there are advantages to being able to move the AF point.  The amount allowed in the DF series cameras was not enough to matter, and with the CMOS AF setup in the XF I believe many thoughts were passed around:

Phase detect, (but of course that would need to be on the sensor), not happening I guess
Multiple points contrast detect, can't happen I guess since Mamiya/Phase went with the CMOS single chip
EVF?  not sure if that would allow much advantage or not, although it might be possible with CMOS backs. 

Other solutions, focus peaking?  again not sure if that was considered on the 100MP chip, sadly it's not there.

For many a single very accurate AF point seems to work, in my workflow I prefer multiple.  However with LiveView/CMOS backs, some of that issue is alleviated but not all. 

Modern solutions like Sony and or Fuji implemented with their latest bodes would be great but I guess are years away on MF at least from Mamiya/Phase One if ever.

I guess like a lot of things it's up to your eyes.  If you can manually focus in the viewfinder of the XF without added magnification, AF additional points may not be needed, however as the eyes grow older, this capability is greatly reduced. So multiple AF points or an EVF with magnification are greatly appreciated.

Paul C

[DrakeJ]

Moving the location of the physical AF sensor is not one of those things. The AF sensor itself is where it is.

So, there's no technical trick Phase has up their sleeve to make reliable autofocusing on other things that are not dead center?

Ugh, that will be one up for the H5X then...

[eronald]

So, there's no technical trick Phase has up their sleeve to make reliable autofocusing on other things that are not dead center?

Ugh, that will be one up for the H5X then...

Even an H4X.
Or wait for the XF2

Edmund

[Doug Peterson]

So, there's no technical trick Phase has up their sleeve to make reliable autofocusing on other things that are not dead center?

That's a separate question. The question the OP asked was whether the autofocus sensor itself could be physically moved with a firmware update. It cannot be.

[eronald]

That's a separate question. The question the OP asked was whether the autofocus sensor itself could be physically moved with a firmware update. It cannot be.

That's a very precisely focused non-answer.

Edmund

[DrakeJ]

That's a separate question. The question the OP asked was whether the autofocus sensor itself could be physically moved with a firmware update. It cannot be.

Physical movement of the sensor was never my question... Does Phase require dealers to be part time lawyers?   

[eronald]

Physical movement of the sensor was never my question... Does Phase require dealers to be part time lawyers?   

Hasselblad have focus that just works, Phase have focus for "professionals". Both have solid products.  If AF is the deciding factor, then I am sure existing product outweighs Doug's ostensions of future features.

Edmund

[Ken Doo]

.... I am sure existing product outweighs Doug's ostensions of future features.

Edmund

"Ostensions?"  Geez, I'm an attorney and I don't speak like that.

You just need to actually shoot with your chosen camera platform and see how it feels.  The new Phase XF camera body is exceptional. I really don't care much about the bells and whistles. But the autofocus performance of the XF is excellent. It simply works.  I don't worry about Doug's ostensions of future features.    The XF is a great performing camera body that works now. Anything that Phase offers up later by firmware updates, you know, those ostensions of future features, is just cream on top. 

ken

[eronald]

Always happy to provide cause for a smile

And I'm happy to hear the XF works for you, it's a solid product; off-center focus is just one *feature*. If you need it you really need it. If you don't need it you won't miss it. And you don't need it, miss it, care about it. Which is one reason you are happy with the XF while some others go for Hassy.

BTW, I went to King's at Cambridge, and everybody there talked like that, or at least wrote like that. Of course, it is said that over at the other Cambridge they get to be even more snotty.

Edmund

"Ostensions?"  Geez, I'm an attorney and I don't speak like that.

You just need to actually shoot with your chosen camera platform and see how it feels.  The new Phase XF camera body is exceptional. I really don't care much about the bells and whistles. But the autofocus performance of the XF is excellent. It simply works.  I don't worry about Doug's ostensions of future features.    The XF is a great performing camera body that works now. Anything that Phase offers up later by firmware updates, you know, those ostensions of future features, is just cream on top. 

ken

[DrakeJ]

Always happy to provide cause for a smile

And I'm happy to hear the XF works for you, it's a solid product; off-center focus is just one *feature*. If you need it you really need it. If you don't need it you won't miss it. And you don't need it, miss it, care about it. Which is one reason you are happy with the XF while some others go for Hassy.

BTW, I went to King's at Cambridge, and everybody there talked like that, or at least wrote like that. Of course, it is said that over at the other Cambridge they get to be even more snotty.

Edmund

Off-center focus is what I live for. Perhaps an IQ back mated with a H5x would be the best solution. I'm a sucker for good design however, and the XF is pretty cool. However, if I'm not getting critical focus reliably when shooting people, it's basically an extremely expensive paperweight to me.

I was secretly hoping that Phase is just a software upgrade away from doing a bit of technical trickery to allow the sensor to achieve off-center focus, but I guess that's not in the cards.

[digitalBerg]

I have the same prolem with mye XF (IQ160). Thats why im considering the switch to H5D/H6D


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[razrblck]

You guys are not getting reliable focus with the XF even after the latest firmware update?

[digitalBerg]

That is correct razrblck

[eronald]

Off-center focus is what I live for. Perhaps an IQ back mated with a H5x would be the best solution. I'm a sucker for good design however, and the XF is pretty cool. However, if I'm not getting critical focus reliably when shooting people, it's basically an extremely expensive paperweight to me.

I was secretly hoping that Phase is just a software upgrade away from doing a bit of technical trickery to allow the sensor to achieve off-center focus, but I guess that's not in the cards.

I'm sure Phase will improve their product, but I don't think focus is easy enough so they can do it quickly or promise anything and be trusted.
The big problem with MF and even 35mm fullframe SLR AF is that even when there are multiple focus points, they end up clustered around the center of the frame. And an event, marriage or fashion shooter often has the face floating at one end of the frame. This limitation will disappear with mirrorless, but I don't think the XF can escape it. The other problem is that focus and recompose introduces some aliasing -a few inches of misfocus- at medium distance, but those few inches are really really perceptible in practice if you aren't @F8.

There is one product which does off-center focus and recompose well, and that's the Hassy, whatever its other qualities. That's why they can sell an F2.2 portrait lens.
You can ask around on this forum about that.
The newer Hassies (H4x, H5x) also work with the older Phase backs, and there are a bunch of those old backs around now. Maybe some forum member wants to share their experiences.
Of course a hetoregenous system means multiple batteries and warranties to contend with, and finger-pointing when it breaks - but there is probably a dealer here who would be prepared to stand by such a solution, and might even have something cheap in stock.

Maybe people with real world experience of the Hx-Phase combo could chime in?


Edmund

[Paul2660]

That is a good point on the fact that with multiple points, they are clustered very tightly.  Lots of open space still around.  Even if something is added to the XF in the future, I would think that by design Phase is limited to the CMOS chip in the center.  Not sure how large that is overall, but probably not large enough to cover 75% of the space. When I looked at the 645Z, I noticed that also, i.e the AF module I believe came from their APC camera line (I may have that wrong but they did not have a full frame at the time) and the points are very tightly grouped.

If Hasselblad can do that with True Focus, I would say that is a stellar feature.  I have never shot with their camera so am totally unfamilar with their camera lineup.

Paul C

[eronald]

That is a good point on the fact that with multiple points, they are clustered very tightly.  Lots of open space still around.  Even if something is added to the XF in the future, I would think that by design Phase is limited to the CMOS chip in the center.  Not sure how large that is overall, but probably not large enough to cover 75% of the space. When I looked at the 645Z, I noticed that also, i.e the AF module I believe came from their APC camera line (I may have that wrong but they did not have a full frame at the time) and the points are very tightly grouped.

If Hasselblad can do that with True Focus, I would say that is a stellar feature.  I have never shot with their camera so am totally unfamilar with their camera lineup.

Paul C

Hassy do focus and recompose, and use a built-in gyro to check the recompose angle and recompute the distance. Apparently it works well, and they can also adjust for plane of focus issues, as they designed the lens.

Edmund