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martinmitch

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« Reply #240 on: August 29, 2006, 07:05:27 pm »

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My supplier is Chris Burslem at on-linepaper.co.uk who is helpful and very pleasant to deal with.

As for platforms, I have too much experience invested to change, that's all.

As for printing, I had to get a printer to fill a need for very small print sizes, it was urgent and the Canon is fast and offered the best quality at the time. I expect the 44" to become available in October after the announcement at Photokina, which again may well fulfil our requirements at this size. At the next sheduled replacement - in two years - the cycle may favour another.

We print commercially, daily, on gloss and matt and cannot wait around for the next best thing, time is money!
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Martin,thanks for the inforemation.

Martinmitch
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #241 on: August 29, 2006, 07:08:46 pm »

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MarkDS,I don't understand what you are trying to say except possible repeat what you have said before!!!!
My mentioning Macs is because it is easier to exchange inforemation concerning the use of the Canon iPF5000 if one is using the same type of computer.There are many differences between using a mac or pc especially in animation and in the operating systems but to me all this is part of a different debate.The reference to [hope some of the other punters who read LL will be encouraged to move over to or just go and buy one of these Canon iPF 5000 inkjet printers instead of waiting or dithering.] is in reference to a number of private e-mails I've received from individuals who have read about the Canon iPF5000 on this web site and wanted more inforemation before buying this printer .The inforemation I gave them included refering them to other web sites and the HP9180 inkjet plus other idears to help them be sure of their choice because £1760-00 is a lot of money.Also,I have said on this site that I will be buying an HP9180 to produce smaller prints in a couple of months time or when the printer becomes available in   U/K.

Bye
Martinmitch
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Martin - you are encouraging people not to dither - fine - that's your opinion. All I'm saying is that for some people there may well be good reasons to dither. Nothing more, nothing less. As I did say before - a matter of strategy how one approaches the marktet in these dynamic times.

Cheers,

Mark
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martinmitch

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« Reply #242 on: August 29, 2006, 07:16:06 pm »

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Yes I prefer to use Apple when I can. Yet I also used to do a lot of development on RIPs and they were mostly PC based. When you look at what you can do with Qimage , it is too bad that it is PC only. I suggested to HP they buy the company but they didn't!
I forgot the plug-in is separate from the driver. Drivers can be 16 bit but Canon chose to do their own thing for whatever reason. IP takes 16 bit files and screens them well with internal proprietary technology that is not from the OEM driver. I do believe ImagePrint to be the finest of photographic RIPs. For proofing GMG is at the top now but it's not intended as a photographic rip.
BTW I have always had the Postscript versions of IP.
The Canon printer is going to be a challenge for all developers. To exploit the N channel capabilities of the 12 ink set the color maps and screening options are many times more difficult than 8bit 8 ink rgb workflows.
That said many of you making profiles are maybe not doing so (yet) in n-channel profiles. I think that's where you'd see the Canon controlled with finesse beyond the rgb workflow. Yet I don't think much is documented about the frameworks, screens, linearisation curves, CLT's etc so that will be an area that ImagePrint will justify a surcharge for this printer or other multi-channel printer.
I do know some of the eng. at Colorbyte and I can tell you they can do all of this.
I was just asking why from a users point of view, not my theoretical view.
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Hello Neil,

I'm just starting to teach myself how to make profiles for the Canon iPF5000 printer using X-rite pulse and would be grateful if you could elaborate on profiling for a 12 ink printer and n-channel profiles.One could learn a great deal from your experiance in colour management.

Thanks
Martinmitch
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tbonanno

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« Reply #243 on: August 29, 2006, 07:46:58 pm »

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Hello Neil,

I'm just starting to teach myself how to make profiles for the Canon iPF5000 printer using X-rite pulse and would be grateful if you could elaborate on profiling for a 12 ink printer and n-channel profiles.One could learn a great deal from your experiance in colour management.

Thanks
Martinmitch
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74879\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Neil, I second what Martin is suggesting.. Any light you can shed on profiling the 12 ink system on the Canon would be helpful I'm sure.  I've spent a few hours tryng to create some profiles for the IPF5000 also using an X-Rite Pulse ColorElite (rgb & cmyk), but have run into some problems with the hardware.  I have to admit, I'm a beginner at profiling.  Anyway, you seem to have a great deal of expertise.  I've found your posts quite informative and helpful.  One of the strengths of this forum is the sharing so much knowledge and experience from so many here.  

Tony
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digitaldog

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« Reply #244 on: August 29, 2006, 07:54:58 pm »

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Hello Neil,

I'm just starting to teach myself how to make profiles for the Canon iPF5000 printer using X-rite pulse and would be grateful if you could elaborate on profiling for a 12 ink printer and n-channel profiles.One could learn a great deal from your experiance in colour management.

Thanks
Martinmitch
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74879\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Treat it as an RGB device (that is, send it the RGB target).
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martinmitch

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« Reply #245 on: August 30, 2006, 08:02:45 am »

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Treat it as an RGB device (that is, send it the RGB target).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74882\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hello digitaldog,think you have to be a little more explicit!!
I do know how to make profiles and read your book Colour Management for Photographers last year.

Thanks for joining the debate.

bye martinmitch
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #246 on: August 30, 2006, 08:15:48 am »

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Hello digitaldog,think you have to be a little more explicit!!
I do know how to make profiles and read your book Colour Management for Photographers last year.

Thanks for joining the debate.

bye martinmitch
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Martin, if I understand between the few words Andrew wrote, I think he's saying it doesn't matter how many inks or what bit depth the printer works with - the key thing is to output a properly produced target from the printer, read it with the spectro and let the profiling software generate a profile from that data, which you then load into the appropriate folder of your O/S. Andrew do I have it right? I'm interested because I may be getting into this too once I have a printer that makes it practical to switch media between matte and gloss.
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martinmitch

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« Reply #247 on: August 30, 2006, 08:17:27 am »

General Question.
Concerning X-rite Pulse and Canon iPF5000

Read today in instruction manual that Monaco GamutWorks only supports upto 8 colours inside inkjet printers so cannot plot and display colour gamut and look at Delta E-values et'c for Canon..

Does this also mean the Pulse colourelite has problems creating output profiles for the Canon iPF5000 because of the 12 inks that it uses?

Thanks
matinmitch
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martinmitch

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« Reply #248 on: August 30, 2006, 08:24:37 am »

I'll post question to Neil Snape in more detail.

The Canon printer is going to be a challenge for all developers. To exploit the N channel capabilities of the 12 ink set the color maps and screening options are many times more difficult than 8bit 8 ink rgb workflows.
That said many of you making profiles are maybe not doing so (yet) in n-channel profiles. I think that's where you'd see the Canon controlled with finesse beyond the rgb workflow. Yet I don't think much is documented about the frameworks, screens, linearisation curves, CLT's etc so that will be an area that ImagePrint will justify a surcharge for this printer or other multi-channel printer.

Neil could you please elaborate on this quote with your greater knowledge of colour managemant.
What are N-Channels etc'?

Thanks
martinmitch
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #249 on: August 30, 2006, 08:28:55 am »

Quote
General Question.
Concerning X-rite Pulse and Canon iPF5000

Read today in instruction manual that Monaco GamutWorks only supports upto 8 colours inside inkjet printers so cannot plot and display colour gamut and look at Delta E-values et'c for Canon..

Does this also mean the Pulse colourelite has problems creating output profiles for the Canon iPF5000 because of the 12 inks that it uses?

Thanks
matinmitch
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Martin, something mysterious to me is going on and you may be onto something important here. It may be a good idea to put this question to X-Rite Tech Support (and let us kow what they tell you), because if their package is limited to a certain number of inks in a printer, this would be a concerning limitation, and one wonders whether it applies to Gretag's other profiling packages as well. I have assumed that a profile should not depend on how many inks the printer needs to generate the right numbers, but perhaps this is an incorrect assumption.
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martinmitch

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« Reply #250 on: August 30, 2006, 08:55:09 am »

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Martin, if I understand between the few words Andrew wrote, I think he's saying it doesn't matter how many inks or what bit depth the printer works with - the key thing is to output a properly produced target from the printer, read it with the spectro and let the profiling software generate a profile from that data, which you then load into the appropriate folder of your O/S. Andrew do I have it right? I'm interested because I may be getting into this too once I have a printer that makes it practical to switch media between matte and gloss.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74908\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hello MarkDS
My questions are going a bit further than creating a profile I'm more interested in editing the profile saturation,lightness and output curves etc' but have found a problem with Monaco gamutworks supplied with X-rite Pulse it does not support 12 inkset printers and wondered if this anomaly could in any way cause problems when constructing rgb profiles for the Canon iPF5000.

Hold on martnmitch I might have misunderstood -  the wording in manuel is :-

Monaco Gamut Works allows users to: plot and display the colour gamut of any RGB,CMYK,5-8 color ICC-complaint profile,or RGB/CMYK image file[BMP,JPEG,PNG,OR TIFF] in two or three dimensions.

My General Question refraised is does this mean it will or will not support 12 inkset in Canon iPF5000?

My head is beginning to spin but will get to learn this colour management eventually!

Thanks martinmitch
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neil snape

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« Reply #251 on: August 30, 2006, 09:07:04 am »

Okay this is going to be hard to explain, or at least harder to explain than why it is easier as Andrew says treat it as an rgb (CMY) device.

The volume of the rgb numbers leave enough room for pretty much any combination of colors possible within the scope of any ink jets we currently use.
The PCS stands for something like Profile Connection Space is in almost every case these days L*a*b* for printers. The numbers go from your image in rgb to the mathematically equated nearest values run through a (grid) fixed precision LUT. Up until here all's well.
For the output side most profile packages do rgb or better CMYK.
Some top end packages will take this up to 12 or more separate color channels.
They are very expensive, take much higher training, and are seldom usable in system level drivers.
So are there any advantages?
Yes, but maybe as many disadvantages.
If you can control each ink independently you can have pure graduations with finer control of composite colors than if they PCS numbers have to be made composite and re-divided into the driver or hardware level color maps.
Yet when you use n-channel device profiles, Photoshop doesn't at this time use or preview N color profiles. You need at least 12 bits of precision in screening if you want to have any decent number of tonal separation. Because of this separate rips and or drivers are required.
I've always wanted to muck about with these, but had no RIP's capable of doing so. You could with the Canon I assume. I believe that the next operating system are able to handle both >16 bit driver level separation and N-channel device profiles too.
Before you had to work with plug-ins, saving out as DCS 2 files , RIPs etc to even get near this level reserved for high end offset or Roland printers.
Today it's looking like it will become easier. Just have to dust off my skills and re-read the Profile Maker guide.


Oh , yes most of the viewers will choke on esoteric profiles.
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digitaldog

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« Reply #252 on: August 30, 2006, 09:19:00 am »

I think you guys are making this far more complicated than it has to be. I've built a few profiles for this printer (in RGB) and don't know that there were any issues with those profiles. Building ncolor profiles is a big, expensive and complicated deal that produces profiles that are going to require a vastly different means to use than what we have in say Photoshop.
But if you want to drop $5000+ on ProfileMaker for the packaging module and do that dance, by all means...
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #253 on: August 30, 2006, 09:28:13 am »

Neil, you are right - it was hard to explain.

I think the main point of interest here is whether or not (and why) our current profiling packages produce (and allow to be edited) profiles that will work properly with Inkjet printers that have more than eight inks - such as the Canon IPF5000, and there will probably be more such printers to come. I couldn't see how your post specifically contributed to clarity on that issue. Could you try again?  
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« Reply #254 on: August 30, 2006, 09:36:09 am »

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I think you guys are making this far more complicated than it has to be. I've built a few profiles for this printer (in RGB) and don't know that there were any issues with those profiles. Building ncolor profiles is a big, expensive and complicated deal that produces profiles that are going to require a vastly different means to use than what we have in say Photoshop.
But if you want to drop $5000+ on ProfileMaker for the packaging module and do that dance, by all means...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74917\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks Andrew, I thought as much, and nothing speaks like actual results. What profiling package did you use for those jobs? Do you think some packages may be more limited than others in being able to handle different printers, or should the printer's ink set-up be largely irrelevant?

Also I'm not sure whether Martin actually got poor profiles for his Canon from the X-Rite package, or whether he is only running into issues when trying to edit them for refinement. This would be good for Martin to clarify.
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martinmitch

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« Reply #255 on: August 30, 2006, 09:44:26 am »

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Okay this is going to be hard to explain, or at least harder to explain than why it is easier as Andrew says treat it as an rgb (CMY) device.

The volume of the rgb numbers leave enough room for pretty much any combination of colors possible within the scope of any ink jets we currently use.
The PCS stands for something like Profile Connection Space is in almost every case these days L*a*b* for printers. The numbers go from your image in rgb to the mathematically equated nearest values run through a (grid) fixed precision LUT. Up until here all's well.
For the output side most profile packages do rgb or better CMYK.
Some top end packages will take this up to 12 or more separate color channels.
They are very expensive, take much higher training, and are seldom usable in system level drivers.
So are there any advantages?
Yes, but maybe as many disadvantages.
If you can control each ink independently you can have pure graduations with finer control of composite colors than if they PCS numbers have to be made composite and re-divided into the driver or hardware level color maps.
Yet when you use n-channel device profiles, Photoshop doesn't at this time use or preview N color profiles. You need at least 12 bits of precision in screening if you want to have any decent number of tonal separation. Because of this separate rips and or drivers are required.
I've always wanted to muck about with these, but had no RIP's capable of doing so. You could with the Canon I assume. I believe that the next operating system are able to handle both >16 bit driver level separation and N-channel device profiles too.
Before you had to work with plug-ins, saving out as DCS 2 files , RIPs etc to even get near this level reserved for high end offset or Roland printers.
Today it's looking like it will become easier. Just have to dust off my skills and re-read the Profile Maker guide.
Oh , yes most of the viewers will choke on esoteric profiles.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74916\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks Neil for the reply,have read it a few times and can follow what you are saying and appreciat that it is another level,i have read a few books on color profiling lack the practical experiance but can follow theory.
Thanks
martinmitch
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neil snape

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« Reply #256 on: August 30, 2006, 10:03:11 am »

I knew it would be!
The finer points are still the same, it comes down to control over each channel that can have pure blends at the right time and place.
Bad news is , also stated before there are not enough tools for this to happen for many users.
It's interesting, but the gain on the Canon shouldn't be that significant as it's not a huge gamut printer according to users here.
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martinmitch

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« Reply #257 on: August 30, 2006, 10:03:49 am »

Also I'm not sure whether Martin actually got poor profiles for his Canon from the X-Rite package, or whether he is only running into issues when trying to edit them for refinement. This would be good for Martin to clarify.
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I think therefore !
I'm one of those people who will read in great detail books and manuels on a subject before starting  on the practical side so just starting to make my own profiles for the iPF5000 before they were purchased or made for me by person in paper profiling business.Don't think I have as yet tripped up just want to ask more questions from printers with more experiance than me in my quest to produce amazing inkjet prints from my drawings and animation images.
Just tried to email X-rite but I am from across the water and they will not accept my e-mail so sent questions about Pulse to Chromix in Seattle.

Thanks everyone for your help.
martinmitch
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digitaldog

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« Reply #258 on: August 30, 2006, 10:06:22 am »

I used ProfileMaker Pro. And I have the packaging module and could build a nColor Profile. But then what would I do with it?

Guys, there have been nColor printers (Epson 6, 7 and 8 ink) printers for years now. We've treated them (depending on the driver) as RGB or CMYK devices. The use of nColor profiles is primary intended for the packaging market and the ability to produce nColor profiles is pretty new.

KISS!
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martinmitch

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« Reply #259 on: August 30, 2006, 10:28:26 am »

I used ProfileMaker Pro. And I have the packaging module and could build a nColor Profile. But then what would I do with it?




Buy a iPF5000 and play with the 16 bit driver------!! then entertain us with banter.

Bye
martinmitch
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