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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #220 on: August 28, 2006, 08:03:49 am »

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Hello MarkDS

I have looked at many Forums on the Web and on L-L concerning the Canon iPF5000 and the two points you mention nozzle clogs and seperately,flushing inks when switching between matte and glossy papers have been resolved by Canon with this printer.
My experiance during last two months is this printer is economical with ink usage,there are no clogging issues so far [early days],discovered it's better for printer to be left on in sleep mode so it does not perform major head clean if switched on to mains electricity and there is no problem as in Epson 4800 switching between matt and gloss papers there are 12 inks in the Canon.The colour gamut is proving to be greater than the Epson somewhere on the web last week I came across examples showing this point it was difficult for me to understand - color theory language et'c [if have time will try and find web page],this brings me to paper profile developement for the Canon iPF500.
A few weeks ago purchased PrintFixPro to make paper profiles but sent it back and given refund under the 30 days option because it was mechanical profile machine ,one had to press
click for each colour patch 729 clicks for each profile madness was the only outcome.After searching web bought from Chromix    X-RITE Pulse ColorElite   a sensible piece of kit and the software is much easier to use.

http://www.chromix.com/colorgear/shop/prod...CFUBdEAodLjiMFg

The lesson is always buy the best gear at time of purchase!

The one problem with the Canon that cannot be altered is smallest size of paper it will print is A4.
The HP B9180 would solve this problem if I had one they sell in U/K from Sept' 06,but do not have another car to sell for printer purchase.
Next few months will teach myself colour print theory,profile different papers then hopefully write about linearity,delta E and colour gamut in relation to Canon iPF5000.
 X-rite documation is good it arrived with printed manuel.

Bye
Martinmitch
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74714\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Martin, yes, the Xi-Rite Pulse or the Gretag Eye-One would be the packages of choice if I were to buy one of them.

I know the Canon printer solves both the problems I mentioned, which is why I took a very early interest in it. Now I'm waiting for HP's offerings. And who knows- Epson may also be announcing something, but so far there isn't even a hint.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #221 on: August 28, 2006, 08:07:48 am »

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I am reading this with as much interest as ever. Since the announcements of the Canon printers , and having inside information on HP (some Epson too), I see this is the most exciting year in digital imaging ever.
I saw the early Canon's in December. Then in February, then in March. I saw leaps of progress each time and as expected my statements of Canon eng. are very talented and smart people capable of making these printers work.
That seems to be the case, many of you are saying just this. I missed my chance to print on one in the beginning of July, much to my chagrin.
What I see as an inconvenience is the pains of early models. Yet I don't see this as a sacrifice, merely a hindrance to what are perfectly sellable and usable fine art prints.
Does Epson rightfully deserve it's place in pigment FA printing. You bet.
Are they overthrown by HP and Canon? I think not. Will we have to put up with software, documentation, and some hardware first model problems with HP and Canon? Yes definitely.
Will Epson users be jumping ship immediately? No, no way but they will have options now. Will Epson have to make better products if they want their client base stay with them. Yes definitely, and I do believe they'll do just that. Yet this is the first time they have any serious competition. And it's not just to try to chase the current model. Both Canon and HP are moving the features well beyond any current Epson model. Hence my statement that Epson will be forced to better their models. But please don't think that Epson are not capable of doing so , and doing so quickly.

Let's have fun talking about these printers as we are at a point now where we can all do just that.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74722\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Neil, agreed. We will be able to have lots of fun talking about printers - and even buying. It is very exciting because this is indeed the first time the Fine Art printer market is becoming competitive with that some apparently great technical breakthroughs. I have no doubt Epson is working hard. The question is how soon do they announce something (and what) to sustain a lead on HP and Canon?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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martinmitch

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« Reply #222 on: August 28, 2006, 09:29:46 am »

Hello.
nell snape has insider inforemation-fantastic lets read more about all three inkjet manufacturers - Epson,Canon and HP because all three are becoming competative with their respective printers Canon seem to be first out of the box then HP are offering new machines in next few weeks,obviously Epson will respond with another technical developement but when and it's but when because there does not seem to be any gossip on the internet unless someone out there knows something -please tell.
Eventually before end of year I will have to buy another inkjet A3 printer for prints smaller than A4 [Canon smallest A4 only] and one thing I have learnt since taking up the computer three and half years ago from nil experiance one could say blank mind! is do not wait for the next best developement.My Canon iPF 5000 will be obsolete within three years and in the print trade the turn over for new flatbed inkjet printers is phenomenal.Technical developement does appear to be increasing and the print market is expanding as photographers,artists and punters in suburbia demand better prints from machines that they think will be easier to use but are they?

Bye
martinmitch
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tbonanno

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« Reply #223 on: August 28, 2006, 12:11:36 pm »

Yes, these are exciting times for folks like us... I think Mark, Neil, Martin, most of us are on the same sheet of paper at the moment.  I've got the Canon 5000 in Studio at the moment (replacing an Epson 4000).  Enjoying it for the most part, but still some issues typical of a new product, but overall very good.  I found Neil's review most interesting and thinking that maybe it I will be looking at a 13" HP model this Fall to see what it can do compared to the Epson R2400, etc.  Yes, CHOICES are good for us.. spurs development and better products.  What I'm really looking forward to is the 24" models coming down the road.  A 24" pigment printer and a smaller 13" model (for small cut sheet) would cover all my needs pretty well, although my current client base doesn't call for much larger than 16", but hoping that might change.  Yeah !

Tony
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martinmitch

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« Reply #224 on: August 28, 2006, 01:06:40 pm »

Hello,

Neil is it possible for you to elaborate on the use of Hahnemuhle paper by HP with thier new inkjet B9180 printer?
I use a lot of Hahnemuhle photo rag 308gm because it brings out the colour in my fine art prints.

Thanks

Martinmitch
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neil snape

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« Reply #225 on: August 28, 2006, 04:51:30 pm »

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Hello,

Neil is it possible for you to elaborate on the use of Hahnemuhle paper by HP with their new inkjet B9180 printer?
I use a lot of Hahnemuhle photo rag 308g/m2 because it brings out the colour in my fine art prints.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74759\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

HP signed an agreement with Hahnemuhle to make a lot of Fine Art media for the 9180 and others to come.
The Equivalent of the Photo Rag optimized for the 9180 is a 265 g/m2 very bright yet not optically brightened base (around L97) , a smoother surface than the off the shelf H308 PR. It has higher acutance than the OEM media and other mechanical attributes that make it a slightly more robust media than H308 or 188. It is perhaps an excellent choice for Canon iP Graf's or Epson pigments.
It has as you can see from a plot in Colorthink a very good gamut as does Hahnemuhle PhotoRag with no surprises, only good things. One thing I do appreciate is the white of the HP media is much more neutral to the eye than the yellowish H308.
When I compare the watercolor and Aquarella the gamut , color range and Dmax are all almost exactly the same so the look remains constant throughout the range of FA media.
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martinmitch

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« Reply #226 on: August 28, 2006, 06:08:19 pm »

Neil,
Thanks for the reply.
Problem for me is I have just purchased X-rite so just beginning to teach myself paper profiling and then rest of colour printing theory so Colorthink is down along the learning curve-just looked at the software on Chromix website and it looks interesting.
The paper Hahnemuhle have developed for HP is most interesting from your description especially being whiter in appearance and having a smoother surface,it will help with printing bright colours.I use Fotospeed matt duo for rough proofing a print it is a cheap but usefull inkjet paper.Does this new HP paper have a name or title to date?

Thanks

Martinmitch
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JeffKohn

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« Reply #227 on: August 29, 2006, 12:14:35 am »

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The Equivalent of the Photo Rag optimized for the 9180 is a 265 g/m2 very bright yet not optically brightened base (around L97) , a smoother surface than the off the shelf H308 PR. It has higher acutance than the OEM media and other mechanical attributes that make it a slightly more robust media than H308 or 188. It is perhaps an excellent choice for Canon iP Graf's or Epson pigments.
It has as you can see from a plot in Colorthink a very good gamut as does Hahnemuhle PhotoRag with no surprises, only good things. One thing I do appreciate is the white of the HP media is much more neutral to the eye than the yellowish H308.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74775\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Do you have any spectro measurements of either the HP or Hahnemuhle papers to go along with your observations? I just measured paper white on two pieces of HPR 308 using my Eye One Spectro (no UV cut). From a box of 13x19 that I bought a month ago I got 96.9, 0.5, 0.0 and from a box of Letter-size sheets that I just took shipment of today I got 97.1, 0.6, 0.1. Hardly what I would call "yellowish", and if the HP media looks noticeably whiter when compared side by side this makes me wonder if it's actually a bit on the bluish side (which would be quite an accomplishment without OBA's I think).

I like the texture and thickness of the HPR 308, so if the HP media is smoother and thinner that's actually a bit of a disappointment to me.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2006, 12:16:46 am by JeffKohn »
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neil snape

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« Reply #228 on: August 29, 2006, 01:00:41 am »

Yes I measured H308 that I have in boxes. <96L +0.9b here.
No there are no additional OBA's in the HP media.
The media is thinner, not by much but much easier handling.
There is or will be H308 non optimised (OEM rebranded) as there always has been later. What will be different is possible sheets as before it was 36" rolls only.
By your measurements I see huge inconsistencies in Hahnemuhles own production. I hope that is not the case with the specified media for HP.
BTW if you like H308 for it's surface and whiteness/brightness just use that.
No matter what benefits optimisation could have , one's favorite media can be used with full confidence. What the HP FA Smooth offers is another choice but not an obligation.
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martinmitch

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« Reply #229 on: August 29, 2006, 04:32:37 am »

hello

A general question to artist on this forumin using Canon iPF5000

1]What are your experiances using papers like hahnemuhle on the CanoniPF5000?

2]Again,what are your experiances using Canon stock papers?

3]Comparative experiance between these two paper types?

The inforemation supplied by neil concerning paper types for HP 9180 is exciting because inkjet manufactures are at last taking notice of paper used by artists instead of plugging their own brands and means printers will be optimised to produce better prints with certain specialist papers when using specified manufactured paper profiles.This will broaden the injet market and increase sales et' etc'.

bye
martinmitch
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Martin Phillips

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« Reply #230 on: August 29, 2006, 09:58:35 am »

I love the the results from the iPF5000, so much so that I sold our Epson 7600 running Lysion CIS and have pre-ordered an iPF8000 for our larger output.

Yes, the paper handling was a little irritating at first but 'photopaper plus' works for Museo Silver Rag and 'premium matte' works for Museo Fine Art. The plug-in is very simple to use but a larger preview would be great and I miss the ability to drag and drop unopened files, batch a few smaller prints to one page and queue jobs in the Colorbyte RIP.

The superiority of colout gamut of this printer over the Epson and our Pictrography printers is obvious to the eye, and the custom profiles we made clearly show it too.

What is more interesting (as many have made the above comments already) is that we have moved from the European Hahnemuehle papers to American Crane papers - for a couple of reasons. The Hahnemuehle papers don't want to load from the cassette. That goes for the satin, photorag and the A5 cards. The Crane Museo Fine Art paper loads without a hitch and also demonstrates considerable increase in gamut over the European paper. I am also fond of the natural colour of the paper.

The Museo Silver Rag is nothing short of incredible with this printer, I tried the Innova gloss N surface but it is a nightmare to handle, it marks if you just look at it! What a shame because it is available at a very low price here.

So despite spending a LOT more on imported paper, it is definitely worth the ease of use and for the better quality result.

We just need Colorbyte to release their RIP for the Canons asap!
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neil snape

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« Reply #231 on: August 29, 2006, 10:06:50 am »

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We just need Colorbyte to release their RIP for the Canons asap!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74843\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why is the IP rip essential to this printer as many say the driver on multipass is excellent?
I use ImagePrint for other reasons, but if the driver is working well I can say that Qimage would do many things via the driver. Does Qimage work with this printer?
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JeffKohn

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« Reply #232 on: August 29, 2006, 12:36:43 pm »

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Why is the IP rip essential to this printer as many say the driver on multipass is excellent?
I use ImagePrint for other reasons, but if the driver is working well I can say that Qimage would do many things via the driver. Does Qimage work with this printer?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74844\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
QImage should work with any printer that has a Windows print driver. The only problem is if you don't use the IPF5000 PHotoshop plug-in you'll be giving up 16-bit printing. Mike Chaney has indicated that he currently has no intention of trying to support the 16-bit printing interface because he doesn't think it would be make any difference (even though many ipf5000 users claim otherwise).
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« Reply #233 on: August 29, 2006, 12:41:24 pm »

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Yes I measured H308 that I have in boxes. <96L +0.9b here.
No there are no additional OBA's in the HP media.
The media is thinner, not by much but much easier handling.
There is or will be H308 non optimised (OEM rebranded) as there always has been later. What will be different is possible sheets as before it was 36" rolls only.
By your measurements I see huge inconsistencies in Hahnemuhles own production. I hope that is not the case with the specified media for HP.
I've purchased HPR several times over the last year and the paper white measurements have been extremely consistent.  I've never seen anything close to +0.9b, I think the highest it's ever measured for me is +0.2b but more often it's 0.0 or 0.1.
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Martin Phillips

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« Reply #234 on: August 29, 2006, 12:51:23 pm »

Quote
Why is the IP rip essential to this printer as many say the driver on multipass is excellent?
I use ImagePrint for other reasons, but if the driver is working well I can say that Qimage would do many things via the driver. Does Qimage work with this printer?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74844\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Quite simply Neil, we are Mac based and have been for 18 years, with no reason to change that. Mike Chaney in his wisdom has chosen not to support that platform.

Also (imho) there is a difference when printing from a 16 bit base on the Canon. There are reports that the driver is a pain to use, I wouldn't know as I haven't tried it.

IP is a pleasure to use, I already have it (including the postscript CMYK Proofing extension) so would only need to add the Canon module when it becomes available.
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martinmitch

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« Reply #235 on: August 29, 2006, 01:13:24 pm »

Quote
I love the the results from the iPF5000, so much so that I sold our Epson 7600 running Lysion CIS and have pre-ordered an iPF8000 for our larger output.

Yes, the paper handling was a little irritating at first but 'photopaper plus' works for Museo Silver Rag and 'premium matte' works for Museo Fine Art. The plug-in is very simple to use but a larger preview would be great and I miss the ability to drag and drop unopened files, batch a few smaller prints to one page and queue jobs in the Colorbyte RIP.

The superiority of colout gamut of this printer over the Epson and our Pictrography printers is obvious to the eye, and the custom profiles we made clearly show it too.

What is more interesting (as many have made the above comments already) is that we have moved from the European Hahnemuehle papers to American Crane papers - for a couple of reasons. The Hahnemuehle papers don't want to load from the cassette. That goes for the satin, photorag and the A5 cards. The Crane Museo Fine Art paper loads without a hitch and also demonstrates considerable increase in gamut over the European paper. I am also fond of the natural colour of the paper.

The Museo Silver Rag is nothing short of incredible with this printer, I tried the Innova gloss N surface but it is a nightmare to handle, it marks if you just look at it! What a shame because it is available at a very low price here.

So despite spending a LOT more on imported paper, it is definitely worth the ease of use and for the better quality result.

We just need Colorbyte to release their RIP for the Canons asap!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74843\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]




Martin, thanks for the inforemation on paper types you are using with a Canon iPF5000 and great to hear you are using a Mac.
You have encouraged me to try Crane Museo Fine Art assume you are based in UK so who is your supplier in USA for this paper?
Glad  you also have understood the increased colour gamut and other benefits in this new Canon printer and that it performs much better than the Epson series.
Hope some of the other punters who read LL will be encouraged to move over to or just go and buy one of these Canon iPF 5000 inkjet printers instead of waiting or dithering.

Thanks
Martinmitch
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #236 on: August 29, 2006, 01:38:02 pm »

Martinmitch - to be serious, let us not be brand-name evangilists - there are all kinds of ways to skin a cat and everyone's needs and situation are not the same. Anything you can do on a Mac you can do on a PC at least as well - and I'm not responding to any debate about that. It is a fact of life these days. As for printers, anyone in the market for a new "Fine Art" printer and isn't in a panic to buy, should wait for the forthcoming announcements from HP, then wait a bit more to see how they work, then wait a bit more to see whether Epson is responding. I would give this whole cycle about another 4 or so months, by which time consumers will have a broader and deeper base of selections and information from which to make a good choice most relevant to their particular requirements. This doesn't cast any doubts on anything that is on the market right now - it just says at this particular point in time there may be good strategic reasons to watch and see before jumping in.
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Martin Phillips

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« Reply #237 on: August 29, 2006, 03:08:03 pm »

Quote
Martin, thanks for the inforemation on paper types you are using with a Canon iPF5000 and great to hear you are using a Mac.
You have encouraged me to try Crane Museo Fine Art assume you are based in UK so who is your supplier in USA for this paper?
Glad  you also have understood the increased colour gamut and other benefits in this new Canon printer and that it performs much better than the Epson series.
Hope some of the other punters who read LL will be encouraged to move over to or just go and buy one of these Canon iPF 5000 inkjet printers instead of waiting or dithering.

Thanks
Martinmitch
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74856\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


My supplier is Chris Burslem at on-linepaper.co.uk who is helpful and very pleasant to deal with.

As for platforms, I have too much experience invested to change, that's all.

As for printing, I had to get a printer to fill a need for very small print sizes, it was urgent and the Canon is fast and offered the best quality at the time. I expect the 44" to become available in October after the announcement at Photokina, which again may well fulfil our requirements at this size. At the next sheduled replacement - in two years - the cycle may favour another.

We print commercially, daily, on gloss and matt and cannot wait around for the next best thing, time is money!
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neil snape

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« Reply #238 on: August 29, 2006, 03:20:23 pm »

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Quite simply Neil, we are Mac based and have been for 18 years, with no reason to change that. Mike Chaney in his wisdom has chosen not to support that platform.

Also (imho) there is a difference when printing from a 16 bit base on the Canon. There are reports that the driver is a pain to use, I wouldn't know as I haven't tried it.

IP is a pleasure to use, I already have it (including the postscript CMYK Proofing extension) so would only need to add the Canon module when it becomes available.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74852\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes I prefer to use Apple when I can. Yet I also used to do a lot of development on RIPs and they were mostly PC based. When you look at what you can do with Qimage , it is too bad that it is PC only. I suggested to HP they buy the company but they didn't!
I forgot the plug-in is separate from the driver. Drivers can be 16 bit but Canon chose to do their own thing for whatever reason. IP takes 16 bit files and screens them well with internal proprietary technology that is not from the OEM driver. I do believe ImagePrint to be the finest of photographic RIPs. For proofing GMG is at the top now but it's not intended as a photographic rip.
BTW I have always had the Postscript versions of IP.
The Canon printer is going to be a challenge for all developers. To exploit the N channel capabilities of the 12 ink set the color maps and screening options are many times more difficult than 8bit 8 ink rgb workflows.
That said many of you making profiles are maybe not doing so (yet) in n-channel profiles. I think that's where you'd see the Canon controlled with finesse beyond the rgb workflow. Yet I don't think much is documented about the frameworks, screens, linearisation curves, CLT's etc so that will be an area that ImagePrint will justify a surcharge for this printer or other multi-channel printer.
I do know some of the eng. at Colorbyte and I can tell you they can do all of this.
I was just asking why from a users point of view, not my theoretical view.
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martinmitch

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« Reply #239 on: August 29, 2006, 06:58:22 pm »

Quote
Martinmitch - to be serious, let us not be brand-name evangilists - there are all kinds of ways to skin a cat and everyone's needs and situation are not the same. Anything you can do on a Mac you can do on a PC at least as well - and I'm not responding to any debate about that. It is a fact of life these days. As for printers, anyone in the market for a new "Fine Art" printer and isn't in a panic to buy, should wait for the forthcoming announcements from HP, then wait a bit more to see how they work, then wait a bit more to see whether Epson is responding. I would give this whole cycle about another 4 or so months, by which time consumers will have a broader and deeper base of selections and information from which to make a good choice most relevant to their particular requirements. This doesn't cast any doubts on anything that is on the market right now - it just says at this particular point in time there may be good strategic reasons to watch and see before jumping in.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74859\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

MarkDS,I don't understand what you are trying to say except possible repeat what you have said before!!!!
My mentioning Macs is because it is easier to exchange inforemation concerning the use of the Canon iPF5000 if one is using the same type of computer.There are many differences between using a mac or pc especially in animation and in the operating systems but to me all this is part of a different debate.The reference to [hope some of the other punters who read LL will be encouraged to move over to or just go and buy one of these Canon iPF 5000 inkjet printers instead of waiting or dithering.] is in reference to a number of private e-mails I've received from individuals who have read about the Canon iPF5000 on this web site and wanted more inforemation before buying this printer .The inforemation I gave them included refering them to other web sites and the HP9180 inkjet plus other idears to help them be sure of their choice because £1760-00 is a lot of money.Also,I have said on this site that I will be buying an HP9180 to produce smaller prints in a couple of months time or when the printer becomes available in   U/K.

Bye
Martinmitch
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