RC papers - ideal Cibachrome replacements?

[shadowblade]

RC papers are rightly criticised here and elsewhere for many reasons - poor feel in hand, degradation of the substrate after long periods, often heavy use of OBAs etc.

But a thought occurred to me - despite all that, are they not the ideal medium for mounting, as the best-possible pigment inkjet equivalent of Cibachrome, Dibond-mounted Fujiflex or facemounted acrylic, with far better lightfastness than either Fujiflex or dye-sub metal, and better resolution and Dmax than UV-printed aluminium for small-medium-sized prints?

After all, besides their faults, RC papers also have a number of strengths. Their face tends to be more physically durable than fibre-based papers (spray with Timeless, or even overprint with UV-curable varnish, for even more durability). They tend to be smoother and glossier than even the smoothest Baryta papers - obviously a bonus if you're trying to achieve a glossy, wet-looking final print, or for facemounting. They often have great Dmax, colour gamut and resolution.

Mounting mitigates the downsides of RC papers and accentuates their strengths. Feel of the paper no longer matters when it's bonded to Dibond, and the RC layer is hardly going to break down and crack once it's securely mounted to a sheet of aluminium (Dibond itself is basically an RC-type paper in reverse, with two aluminium sheets attached to a plastic core). A smooth, glossy RC paper with the same lightfastness as the best fibre-based papers should be an excellent candidate for Dibond-mounted or face-mounted, laminated glassless display.

Obviously you can do similar things with Pictorico and other films, but those tend to be loaded with OBAs and have poor longevity.

Any thoughts? What are the best RC papers you have used/seen, especially in terms of ink permanance vs the best fibre-based papers?

[Mark Lindquist]

I think pictorio gloss white film is still the front runner in terms of Cibachrome emulation.

I agree the cibachrome look and feel is the holy grail, but apparently not for everyone since there just doesn't seem to be a better substrate out there, ar least that not I am aware of.

Wonder if there are test results of Vivera inks used on the Pictorio?

[dgberg]

I use a fair amount of Pictorico all with Jon Cone's Claria dye ink, stunning results
The harder to find Ilford Prestige Smooth Gloss film has a slight metallic sheen rather then bright white like the Mitsubishi.
The Graphica White Film is less then half the cost of the Pictorico, a little thinner but produces amazing prints especially with those Claria dyes.

Downside, difficult if not impossible to mount on gatorboard or dibond.

[shadowblade]

I think pictorio gloss white film is still the front runner in terms of Cibachrome emulation.

I agree the cibachrome look and feel is the holy grail, but apparently not for everyone since there just doesn't seem to be a better substrate out there, ar least that not I am aware of.

Wonder if there are test results of Vivera inks used on the Pictorio?

I could almost swear there used to be results for Pictorico or some other film on Aardenburg (not with Vivera though) but can no longer find it. I don't think it was that great. Not sure whether it was due to colour shifts from OBA burnout and white-point changes or actual pigment fade and loss of density, though. EDIT: It wasn't Aardenburg, it was here. Didn't test too well, but that was with an Epson dye printer and a third-party pigment inkset. In any case, it's still loaded with OBAs.

Regardless, it's perfect for Piezography and other carbon printing processes, where fading isn't part of the equation at all and shifts in white point are acceptable, since they don't actually change the image.

For colour prints, some of the RC gloss papers are pretty damn smooth. You could probably make them smoother and glossier still, as well as longer-lasting, by spraying with Timeless (watered-down and with a drop of Photo-flo to help levelling, as Timeless does not have this naturally), or by applying a laminate when mounting (as commonly done with Fujiflex and other photosensitive papers) or by facemounting on acrylic or glass.

For larger prints, UV prints on acrylic or with glossy UV-curable laminate are probably the best solution, but for 20x30" or smaller prints, you really want a higher-resolution solution. I really wish someone would bring out a UV printer aimed at the photography and fine-art market rather than industrial-scale production - much smaller (24" to 44", not 3m or 5m wide and 5-10 tons), with 4pL-or-smaller droplets for resolution and smooth graduations rather than 10-20pL droplets aimed at speed, an 8-12 ink, 6-8-colour process for gamut and smooth graduations and an inbuilt UV laminator to control gloss and gloss differential, since all unvarnished UV prints are matte. Price point in the 5k-20k range, aimed at photographers, art reproducers and photo labs, not print factories making graphic wraps for cars or buildings. Basically, a P7000, Z3200 or S70675 with a UV-curing head instead of an aqueous head. The technology is already here, at a good price point - just that, for the moment, they're only making huge, expensive machines aimed at printing billboards using it. Even so, over the past year or so, there has been a huge increase in artists, photographers and even furniture-makers making use of them, and they have growing acceptance among the fine art world. Until smaller machines arrive, though, Dibond mounting or facemounting aqueous or solvent prints is probably the best solution.

Do you know of any OBA-free RC papers (or other ultrasmooth glossy or metallic papers) with good longevity?

[shadowblade]

Moab Slickrock Metallic Pearl looks absolutely spectacular when mounted with a gloss laminate or facemounted on acrylic.

Unfortunately, it also contains OBAs and has no image permanence data.

Haven't seen Breathing Color's Vibrance Metallic - any idea if it contains OBAs?

[howardm]

All of the metallics on SpectrumViz show a huge bump of OBA.  I doubt BC is immune from that.  Since they do not explicitly say it's OBA-free, I'm gonna guess it's chock full of them.

[Randy Carone]

I've used a number of films to print faux-Cibachrome prints. The best results, by a huge margin, are those laminated with a thin high gloss Polyester, which I would not use on paper. I've used Pictorico but the best results were with Roland's PQM-PETG film with lam. Stunning look.

[disneytoy]

Try Epson Ultra Premium gloss, in sheets only. Surface is perfectly smooth. Unlike Epson Premium gloss 250.

[shadowblade]

I've used a number of films to print faux-Cibachrome prints. The best results, by a huge margin, are those laminated with a thin high gloss Polyester, which I would not use on paper. I've used Pictorico but the best results were with Roland's PQM-PETG film with lam. Stunning look.

Does it contain OBAs? Any image permanence data for aqueous inks (I noticed that it's both aqueous- and solvent-compatible)?

It's easy enough to get a Cibachrome-like look - just use dye-sub metal or print on Fujiflex. Much harder to get a colour print with that look that lasts as long as a print made on the best inkjet papers out there (Fujiflex and dye-sub metal both lasting a fraction of the lifespan of a good-pigment-on-good-paper combination).

I've seen some fantastic black-and-white stuff with Piezography on polyester film, though, which will likely last forever, since carbon inks take lightfastness completely out of the equation. Would love to be able to do the same thing with colour.

[GrahamBy]

Do OBA's matter if you are going to face mount it to acrylic that will block most of the UV exposure?

[Doug Gray]

Do OBA's matter if you are going to face mount it to acrylic that will block most of the UV exposure?

They matter but not as much. You have to be careful with profiles when you use uV blocking glass or acrylic. For OBprints displayed using uV blockers, you can see some color shift and it's best to use profiles created using M2 spectros.

However, it's a second order effect and fairly subtle since the white point tracks either way. It's mostly the off white colors that get shifted slightly.

As for aging, even blue light will cause some deterioration over time. It's much less of an issue with uV blocking.

[shadowblade]

When OBAs break down, they tend to yellow the paper by more than the loss of the OBAs alone would have - that is, they tend to turn more yellow than the base paper without any OBAs.

Interesting how no-one's bothered to make an OBA-free, UV-resistant high-gloss film. After all, galleries and museums generally value longevity (hence the emphasis on OBA-free, acid-free 100% cotton papers and acid-free, buffered backboards), but they're more than happy to have Cibachrome and Fujiflex prints, despite their poor longevity relative to inkjet. No doubt a high-gloss or metallic film with a similar appearance, but much greater longevity, would be welcomed; when printed in colour, many of the current ones seem more suitable for short-term, high-impact display (in a similar vein to Epson Exhibition Fibre) than long-term stability.

[Mark Lindquist]

After all, galleries and museums generally value longevity (hence the emphasis on OBA-free, acid-free 100% cotton papers and acid-free, buffered backboards), but they're more than happy to have Cibachrome and Fujiflex prints, despite their poor longevity relative to inkjet.

Unfortunately, Galleries and museums mostly, still, value hand made prints over inkjet output.  No manner of persuasion seems to change this as prejudices die hard.

I guess that when the so called hand made prints have faded out and the inkjet prints continue to shine on, they will simply self-select ultimately.

The Cibabchromes and Fujiflex prints are only as good as their archival processing... chances are a paper with mild OBA'a will outlast them as would an archival dark-stored paper with mid-heavy OBA's.