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Author Topic: Does the emperor have clothes?  (Read 14539 times)

fredjeang2

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Does the emperor have clothes?
« on: March 21, 2016, 10:25:28 am »

Weired, extremely weired...it makes think.

Same Lut on same footage. The "oficial" BMPCC. Applied ROTB.
2 different color engines.

Left: Lightworks interpretation of the LUT
right: Resolve interpretation of the LUT.
Footage: Prores 442, flat.

Right clips highlights more and retains less information as well as the skin tone is not correct. (I know exactly how the woman's skin really is because she's my best friend. Left is correct, right ain't: orangish), also check the background buildings walls...this image tells it all.

If Resolve color engine is more problematic and less accurate than LW: Houston we have a problem!

Mmmm...seems to me than the emperor may have not so high fashion clothes.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 10:36:24 am by fredjeang2 »
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Christopher Sanderson

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Re: Does the emperor have clothes?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2016, 11:13:03 am »

But can you adjust the Resolve image to give the same result as the LW?

If you can, it simply means that the LUT is starting from a different base point (engine) and you therefore need to use an 'adjusted' LUT for Resolve no?

fredjeang2

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Re: Does the emperor have clothes?
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2016, 11:20:31 am »

But can you adjust the Resolve image to give the same result as the LW?

If you can, it simply means that the LUT is starting from a different base point (engine) and you therefore need to use an 'adjusted' LUT for Resolve no?
Yes...but that's one more step! (I'm lazy)
And then, the lack of information in the highlights (or the lost informations) ain't that easy to recover. It's tricking buttons....
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 11:23:49 am by fredjeang2 »
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John Brawley

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Re: Does the emperor have clothes?
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2016, 11:37:47 am »

What is the intent of the LUT ?

Who made the LUT ?

What precision is the LUT ?

There's a zillion reasons why this could be happening.  Lut's are kind of like end stage "filters" and if you are applying a "filter" that's expecting a different set of input characteristics then you'll get unexpected results.

Is this a LUT you have generated ?


JB
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fredjeang2

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Re: Does the emperor have clothes?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2016, 12:01:42 pm »

What is the intent of the LUT ?

Who made the LUT ?

What precision is the LUT ?

There's a zillion reasons why this could be happening.  Lut's are kind of like end stage "filters" and if you are applying a "filter" that's expecting a different set of input characteristics then you'll get unexpected results.

Is this a LUT you have generated ?


JB
No, I didn't create the LUT. It is the BM lut that comes by default for flat. Equivalent to the Arri logC-to-Rec709. There is just one (that I know) in what BM is concerned, it's always the same one. The question is that this LUT gives me a relatively accurate base in LW while the Resolve's interpretation is not that accurate as a starting point and needs more work.
So the LUT itself seems to be OK. It is an engine's implementation (apparently) what I'm questionning. Maybe there are more oscur reasons for this.

That I know (I don't know all), BM does not have an oficial generator such as Arri does, and is not Cineon either like Red is (redlogfilm). So there is nothing "oficial".
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 12:08:47 pm by fredjeang2 »
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fredjeang2

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Re: Does the emperor have clothes?
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2016, 12:17:59 pm »

For godness sake: once again a super basic english mistake. Official is with 2 f. I'm getting crazy with my english. Seems like the more I write, the worse.

I need a sexy english teacher in high-heels and stockings. ;D
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Morgan_Moore

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Re: Does the emperor have clothes?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2016, 06:53:02 pm »

have you played with resolve settings.. video vs data levels also there is a checkbox 'equalise for mac' or something (which should be off AFAIK)

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

fredjeang2

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Re: Does the emperor have clothes?
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2016, 08:29:31 pm »

have you played with resolve settings.. video vs data levels also there is a checkbox 'equalise for mac' or something (which should be off AFAIK)

S
Thanks Morgan. I'll check this "equalize for Mac" see if it comes from that. I guess it has something to do with gamma. That could explains the clipping. I ignored this option.
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John Brawley

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Re: Does the emperor have clothes?
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2016, 10:27:13 am »

So there are several BMD luts really, before we even get into how they can be interpreted. Each camera in RAW for example has it's own specific transforms in the RAW tab.  There are also differences between RAW and ProRes, plus yes, you can change between VIDEO range and DATA range for each clip as well.

I'm guessing you're in ProRes using the 709LUT which isn't a very great looking transform even inside Resolve. Have you tried  Hook's free LUTS ?

LUT's are like a kind of cheat to get you somewhere fast, and usually are specific to a certain set of circumstances.  They rarely interoperate well because of the ways applications processing pipelines works.  So you often see different LUTS that do the same job for different applications. 

I presume you want a LUT that enables you to put a nice look onto your rushes from your log footage in LW ?  You might be better off creating your own (easy to do in Resolve) and that way you can season to taste.

And actually, it's a good way to TEST what's happening. Make a LUT and then try it out in in LW....compare the two images.

JB
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Rob C

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Re: Does the emperor have clothes?
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2016, 11:15:46 am »

For godness sake: once again a super basic english mistake. Official is with 2 f. I'm getting crazy with my english. Seems like the more I write, the worse.

I need a sexy english teacher in high-heels and stockings. ;D


If you find her, send her over here when you've finished: have cameras waiting.

Rob C

fredjeang2

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Re: Does the emperor have clothes?
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2016, 12:11:08 am »


If you find her, send her over here when you've finished: have cameras waiting.

Rob C
But it's not going to be "B initials"

 ;)

PS: Too bad I didn't keep in touch with those 3 crazy models I met a few years ago. They were from your island. One was really hot and not shy (the way we like). it was fun how she started to strip in front of me while in the dressing room (she left on purpose the door half-open) doing naughty things with her tongue...
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 12:22:18 am by fredjeang2 »
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Morgan_Moore

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Re: Does the emperor have clothes?
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2016, 02:25:58 pm »


LUT's are like a kind of cheat to get you somewhere fast,
JB

I am not in this camp at all.

All cameras are intimately known by their manufacturers, the LUT is the route from Log (or whatever) to 709 curve full colour saturation.

I would not buy a (log) camera that did not have good LUT support from the manufacturer.

Examining what LUTs do is complex and often way more than an Scurve and Sat boost.

Life is too short for building ones own LUT.

(those of us from stills are used to Capture One or whatever supporting our camera fully via metadata.. the image just arrives looking good to be messed up by us if we want)

Back in the day when choosing between the F3 and the BMC4k for my film the Lutless F3 was left for dust by the BMC with full LUT support in Resolve.

S





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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Does the emperor have clothes?
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2016, 02:38:07 pm »

I am not in this camp at all.

All cameras are intimately known by their manufacturers, the LUT is the route from Log (or whatever) to 709 curve full colour saturation.

I would not buy a (log) camera that did not have good LUT support from the manufacturer.

Examining what LUTs do is complex and often way more than an Scurve and Sat boost.

Life is too short for building ones own LUT.

(those of us from stills are used to Capture One or whatever supporting our camera fully via metadata.. the image just arrives looking good to be messed up by us if we want)

Back in the day when choosing between the F3 and the BMC4k for my film the Lutless F3 was left for dust by the BMC with full LUT support in Resolve.

S

Been interested in this subject for quite awhile in a attempt to understand the function of the LUT used in digital cinema cameras. As a comparison to Raw stills I'm assuming is similar to the Default settings in ACR/LR and basically function as a LUT. Is this so?

I'm guessing the difference with digital cine-cams over still-cams is that their Raw rendering doesn't start out as a dark linear preview but the flat/dull in the middle of the histogram LogC file or is the LogC flat rendering another form of a different LUT to get that flat look.

Or all digital sensor cameras both still and motion have to start out with a dark linear data in their Raw format?
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John Brawley

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Re: Does the emperor have clothes?
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2016, 05:52:49 pm »

I am not in this camp at all.

All cameras are intimately known by their manufacturers, the LUT is the route from Log (or whatever) to 709 curve full colour saturation.

I would not buy a (log) camera that did not have good LUT support from the manufacturer.

Examining what LUTs do is complex and often way more than an Scurve and Sat boost.

Life is too short for building ones own LUT.

(those of us from stills are used to Capture One or whatever supporting our camera fully via metadata.. the image just arrives looking good to be messed up by us if we want)

Back in the day when choosing between the F3 and the BMC4k for my film the Lutless F3 was left for dust by the BMC with full LUT support in Resolve.

S


A LUT is simply a mathematical transform, it's a table of numbers. 

It's the post production equivalent of the AUTO switch.  It makes assumptions about the input image AND the output space.  Many create these as shortcuts to get to a certain look very quickly in post where many shots can quickly overwhelm a production.  Of course, generally all the shooting is done with the ASSUMPTION that the LUT will be applied, and it's often EXPOSED and MONITORED on set using the same LUT applied to on-set monitoring.

You can get LUT's that work really well, but to really and truly get the most of any image, you will generally want to at the least build your own set of LUTs for a show.

For example on many of the TV drama show's I've done, we'll discuss a look in pre, shoot some tests, sit with a colourist and create a set of LUT's for the show.

I usually start with a DAYLIGHT WB and a TUNGSTEN WB LUT.  I often use lot's of different cameras so I'll then make sure I have a version of the same LUT for each of those WB's for EACH camera.

What this means is that in editorial the rushes form the day will generally look consistent for the edit, and are 80% of the final look of the show no matter which camera they were shot on.

Once the episode is locked off we return to the grade and do our final colouring.  For 50% of the shots the colourist will use the same show LUT that was applied and adjust post LUT to make some tweaks.  Sometimes they switch the LUT off and start again.  It just depends on what's happening.

I'm not ANTI lut per se, but it's really important to understand what they are doing and used for and that they are useful for some situations like bulk processing, but for best results are usually not, simply because each shot has different WB and exposure setting even within the same scene.

JB


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Morgan_Moore

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Re: Does the emperor have clothes?
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2016, 06:31:30 pm »


A LUT is simply a mathematical transform, ...
JB

Ok before we wander in to drama 'looks' let me explain what I think to be the 'basic function' of a camera; To reproduce colour, tone and saturation with reasonable accuracy, speed and simplicity

For example a mid grey should have a value of 125-125-125. The skin patch on a gretag card should have a value of 194-150-130.

(assuming you have shot under high quality daylight)

To achieve this manually from log can be a huge mission if you 'manually' grade an image.

Ergo getting a log camera without a LUT to achieve its 'basic function' can become a 'huge mission' - a fail in 'simplicity' which is a fail in being a camera.

Stills cameras/raw software have had this 'basic function' sorted for years. It wasn't sorted at all in the early years as many digi-back owners on this board (including me) will testify. It is however sorted now.

I believe that a log camera maker that does not issue a lut to move from however they record the image to colour and tone with reasonable accuracy is only selling half of a camera. A camera lacking in simple basic functionality.

The Sony F3 was a prime example of a camera that was just not fit for purpose in any way when used in unsupported (lut-wise from Sony) Slog1. You could spend a week tweaking the curves and not produce colour and tone with reasonable accuracy yes you could make something cool (groovy), something The Bridge, but you could not film a simple violet vermillion or puce jumper for a clothes company.. not in a million years.

Freds problem of the lutted image looking different between softwares is also IMO completely unacceptable assuming his setup is correct and the NLE and the camera maker support each other

Once 'basic function' is achieved of course one can, and should, be able then add 'artistic looks' in camera in a non destructive manner but hold the artistic choice in meta data and pass it to your post team to use or abandon. Again raw stills cameras have done this for years with looks like 'Sepia' or 'Vibrant Party'.. (which of course no 'pro' ever touches.. I dont know if you can load your own too.. probably)

While you are shooting admirable look based drama Im trying to match a drinks label to a pantone colour that we got off the client.. and without a fully functional log->709 LUT that is a huge mission. Try some :) .. the picture is shot in my studio, when you get the product you will find the label is indeed yellow.

I need that mathematical transform.

S








 


« Last Edit: March 28, 2016, 07:08:10 pm by Morgan_Moore »
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

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Re: Does the emperor have clothes?
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2016, 06:43:26 pm »

Been interested in this subject for quite awhile in a attempt to understand the function of the LUT used in digital cinema cameras. As a comparison to Raw stills I

Luts are (in my view) the toddler version of what happens under the hood in your raw software.. the transform between the captured data and the image that is viewable with proper tone and contrast (or an artistic interpretation)

They are particularly toddler in that they dont stick to the meta data so get completely lost when your footage hits your NLE. This is being improved upon fast though.

Log is captured differently from raw. It is captured by cramming 12 stops of DR into a the visible signal range but that should not really matter.. as your workflow ideally would not show you this low contrast image any more than you see whatever a raw capture looks like.

Viewing log can be useful, however, as you can see the clip points of the file you are recording (unlike raw stills where I just 'know' ive got a bit more headroom

So yep IMO a lut equates pretty well to the default look business your raw software performs unless you tell it otherwise.

S

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Christopher Sanderson

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Re: Does the emperor have clothes?
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2016, 10:48:26 pm »

As I see it, a LUT is the motion equivalent of a profile. A look-up table that 'translates' one set of numbers into another to compensate for transitional changes in colour & tone due to process.

Take a 'standard' X: a set of RGB values representing a camera sensor's representation of 'reality'.

For the purposes of practicality (bandwidth), the camera's processor may have squeezed X into a diminished space Y using, amongst other things a LOG curve giving an very different recorded look of low saturation & contrast

The LUT attempts to translate that recorded Y back to the X that the camera originally 'saw' before in camera processing

Lots of steps and additional factors missing here  :o

John Brawley

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Re: Does the emperor have clothes?
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2016, 11:53:05 pm »



I need that mathematical transform.

S


You're confusing a few concepts I think.

Camera manufacturer's make LUT's that THEY think are somewhat accurate representations of a given target colour space, say REC709, and these are often created from theoretical models of sensor response, not photometric testing.  REC 709 for example has a kind of limited amount of DR and colour gamut, even though that's the standard we all use for mastering to TV.

But it's still in the end, subjective, and it's TOTALLY dependent on the variables of exposure and white point when you're shooting, not to mention what colours are being reflected and what colour is in your lighting source.

You're relying on the constant of a LUT in the camera showing you the same as what you see on set, but a sensor isn't capturing what you see with a LUT, that's just a "profile" or version of what the camera captures.

Byt the way the true power of REDCODE is that it DOES take the LUT along as a little side file, and remembers that you make changes to it and re-interprets it as you change variables like ISO.

A LUT is really useful but they are a shortcut.

A seasoned knowledgeable colourist in Resolve will always get the most from a file by not using a LUT, or if they do, the LUT does a lot of the heavy lifting the already do on that particular file / exposure / setup type.

And creating a LUT is actually really easy.

JB

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Morgan_Moore

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Re: Does the emperor have clothes?
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2016, 04:40:18 am »

You're confusing a few concepts I think.

Maybe. Help me unravel them

Camera manufacturer's make LUT's that THEY think are somewhat accurate representations of a given target colour space, say REC709,

A target space is defined and hittable, gretag cards are defined, 709 is defined.. im sure people in camera development labs have much better tools than a simple card.. one reason that they should do the work of developing the transform to a target, not the end user.

An example of a space being defined can be found here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRGB

Even 'ISO' is defined.. funnily enough by the International Standards Organisation, colloquially known as the ISO.

and these are often created from theoretical models of sensor response, not photometric testing. 

One would hope any maker of anything would test in the real world before launching to public sale.


REC 709 for example has a kind of limited amount of DR and colour gamut, even though that's the standard we all use for mastering to TV.

As does SRGb.. but in raw stills we know that we have the data shown on screen and more available via the exposure/temp/tint sliders and other tools, the small space is not a problem in developing a transform to that space.

Of course manufacturers should not only be across 709.. they should be issuing for Srgb, Rec2020 and good Aces IDTs for starters.

But it's still in the end, subjective, and it's TOTALLY dependent on the variables of exposure and white point when you're shooting, not to mention what colours are being reflected and what colour is in your lighting source.

My quote above mentioned the controlled target and the controlled light source. It did not however mention exposure point. Of course this is a valid variable in the pie. Sony for one publish targets such as 'grey at 38%', (or whatever)

You're relying on the constant of a LUT in the camera showing you the same as what you see on set, but a sensor isn't capturing what you see with a LUT, that's just a "profile" or version of what the camera captures.

Indeed it is just a version.. a very useful one.. the basic thing a camera should do, provide an image that hits some known targets. Im fully aware that in post we can use the extra data in the image to work it to fit our creative desires.

By the way the true power of REDCODE is that it DOES take the LUT along as a little side file, and remembers that you make changes to it and re-interprets it as you change variables like ISO.

Of course Red has always handled meta data well as do raw stills (since about 2005 but not before), this is, IMO, crucial to simplifing post especially when work is handed off.

A LUT is really useful but they are a shortcut.

Indeed. Im in this business to work fast (as is the definition of being in business?) and the first thing I need is a shortcut to make my camera hit some published targets.

A bit of history for you. Sinar basically made a fantastic digiback with the Dalsa chip but the post flow was terrible, as the file need deep tinkering to pull into a basic shape. Phase One took the same chip, and developed Capture One which made the post workflow solid. Sinar a very old company is now completely dominated by newbies Phase One. Phase one delivered shortcuts that paid dividends the business practice of the end user.

Arri have worked well with LUTs and this has really helped their strong foothold IMO

A seasoned knowledgeable colourist in Resolve will always get the most from a file by not using a LUT, or if they do, the LUT does a lot of the heavy lifting the already do on that particular file / exposure / setup type.

Im not sure that they will cost effectively hit published targets in a cost effective manner compared to using a (proper) factory lut, indeed the heavy lifting is this and the colourist job should be the adding the artistic sparkle on top, correcting on set errors and matching scenes for continuity, not 'mending' the camera.

The team at Resolve have tried to make a 'match to card' facility. This still does not work reliably.. to expect a lone colourist to do what the team at davinci cannot is somewhat optimistic.

And creating a LUT is actually really easy.

They physical act (or digital act) of 'save as LUT' is simple indeed. The work taking a log file and making it hit published targets is far from easy.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 05:04:52 am by Morgan_Moore »
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

Morgan_Moore

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Re: Does the emperor have clothes?
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2016, 05:15:43 am »

BTW John Im not trying to internet 'bait' you, hopefully you know I love your work, just disagree with you on this bit of techie stuff.

I have really struggled with my Sony F3 (sold it!) and while Im far better off with the FS7 it is stills a significant journey to deliver consistent bright accurate repeatable commercial colour especially if I dont have input into the post process.

So my journey with post impacts heavily on my need or not to spend money on changing camera systems.

S
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 07:17:03 am by Morgan_Moore »
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK
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