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Author Topic: Standard vs Parabolic Umbrella?  (Read 13016 times)

JoeKitchen

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Standard vs Parabolic Umbrella?
« on: March 19, 2016, 10:49:35 am »

I have never used a parabolic umbrella before.  What are the main advantages of using one over a standard umbrella?

What is the light like?  Spread? 
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UlfKrentz

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Re: Standard vs Parabolic Umbrella?
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2016, 07:45:00 pm »

The difference might be less significant than you expect. In general there is less spill (as parabolics are deep) and they have a slightly focussed output with high efficiency, resulting in less power->shorter flash duration. They produce a clean, round shape as catchlight, well suited for beauty, less for still photography. There are nearly as many different models as with conventional umbrellas and all slightly vary from their light characteristic. Think about the crispness of a standard reflector but due to its size softer shadows, some models have a multifaceted shadow which at least for my taste is not desirable, especially for stills, might work good on fabrics though. The bigger ones can be used as fill light, I´m sure some use them just to look cool 8)

Ellis Vener

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Re: Standard vs Parabolic Umbrella?
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2016, 12:24:42 pm »

"I'm sure some use them just to look cool "

Bingo!
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jazzy

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Re: Standard vs Parabolic Umbrella?
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2016, 01:39:37 pm »

In a way its the same with medium format digital. The difference in quality is not major, but it is there. And it's definitely also about the professional image. Small differences can help bring in clients, I guess.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Standard vs Parabolic Umbrella?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2016, 01:50:06 pm »

Thanks Ulf and Ellis. 

Ahhh ... the good old sex appeal!

Yes, I realize that there are many out there who probably use these things because they look cool and attract attention.  Hell, I know someone in my area who does not know his a&$ from a hole in the ground that is head over heels over parabolics.  (He also shoots with an old RZ and whatever film he can get his hands on.  I just can't wait until the hipsters go away.) 

However, my assistant, who is a pretty decent fashion shooter, swears by them.  So, I don't know. 

The reason I ask is because I am trying to put together a personal project at a small corner restaurant around the street from where I live.  They have this nice thin terrace on the sidewalk and I would love to try and light it like there is soft moonlight raking over the terrace. 

I figure a white umbrella would probably be best, but I would like to it to be very soft and direct.  A normal umbrella kind of goes all over the place and the edge of light feathers off very gradual. 

I am kind of think a 5 foot white parabolic would be best. 
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UlfKrentz

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Re: Standard vs Parabolic Umbrella?
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2016, 02:09:55 pm »

I would like to advice but unfortunately I struggle to understand "soft moonlight". Actually apart from being dark - moonlight is a pretty hard light source. May be you can show an example of what you like.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Standard vs Parabolic Umbrella?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2016, 02:13:52 pm »

Thanks Ulf and Ellis. 

Ahhh ... the good old sex appeal!

Yes, I realize that there are many out there who probably use these things because they look cool and attract attention.  Hell, I know someone in my area who does not know his a&$ from a hole in the ground that is head over heels over parabolics.  (He also shoots with an old RZ and whatever film he can get his hands on.  I just can't wait until the hipsters go away.) 

However, my assistant, who is a pretty decent fashion shooter, swears by them.  So, I don't know.

Hi Joe,

Your assistant is correct. Parabolic reflectors produce a collimated beam of light along the axis it is aimed at. That means that the shadows it casts around objects are sharper defined, and the fall-off at the beam edge is sharper (so less uncontrollable stray light). That is for a well focused beam, but one can usually modify the position of the light-source itself (depth inside the parabola), to adjust the characteristics (wider beam with more gradual fall-off and softer shadows if the parabola is large enough, or is fitted with a diffuser).

Quote
The reason I ask is because I am trying to put together a personal project at a small corner restaurant around the street from where I live.  They have this nice thin terrace on the sidewalk and I would love to try and light it like there is soft moonlight raking over the terrace.
 

A parabola helps, because otherwise you'd have to position the light much further away (to achieve directional light) and use a deep grid to restrict the light from lighting up the surroundings too much (which also wastes power).

Quote
I figure a white umbrella would probably be best, but I would like to it to be very soft and direct.  A normal umbrella kind of goes all over the place and the edge of light feathers off very gradual.
 

Yes, much less efficient.

Quote
I am kind of think a 5 foot white parabolic would be best.

Sounds like a useful approach to light larger area without wasting power, and avoid the risk of too much light on the surroundings, and well defined shadows as from a distant light.

Cheers,
Bart

P.S. Maybe this also helps.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 02:18:05 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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Ken Bennett

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Re: Standard vs Parabolic Umbrella?
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2016, 02:18:09 pm »

"I'm sure some use them just to look cool "

Bingo!

I dunno, there is something different in the look of the larger Buff parabolic umbrellas, compared to a standard umbrella and a softbox. I like the soft silver, but the hard silver is also interesting. Both of them give a harder, more specular light but very broad. The soft silver is about 2 stops better in output than a similarly sized softbox, so I can use a lower power setting or a lighter weight flash. Yes, they have a sharp falloff compared to a standard umbrella, more similar to a softbox with a grid (but again, slightly different). Yeah, I know the Buff paras are low-end compared to the things the real fashion shooters use. I am not one of those. :)

I've also had some fun with the 7-foot hard silver as a single portrait source, close into the subject with me standing right in front of the umbrella.

Not sure how to mimic moonlight but I'd start with one of the silver paras rather than white, as I think white would have too much spread.


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JoeKitchen

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Re: Standard vs Parabolic Umbrella?
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2016, 02:44:40 pm »

Not really sure how to define the "soft moonlight" look I am thinking about.  I have studied moonlight a decent amount, and, depending on the clouds and phase, it can be soft or hard, just like sunlight (just not as hard on the hard end). 

I really like the Profoto Magnum reflector and the light it produces, however, for this project, that is too hard.  I am looking for something softer and larger, but not diffused like a soft box or octa bank. 

If I can get access, I would plan on shooting this about 40 minutes after dusk, using the last remanents of sunlight as fill, along with a 30'' lantern boomed above set (and several other lights in the restaurant and a couple of models and other things). 

I am not too concerned with power, since these would be shot at ISO 200 or 400, and fairly wide open at that.  I have more then enough power to get the job done. 

However, what I am concerned about is shadow edge quality, which is why I initially felt a white parabolic would be best.  I tested out my silver umbrellas yesterday and the shadows are not so great.  (They are also cheap umbrellas, and I would be rent a better one.) 

Does a silver parabolic produce better shadows?  How about a silver with a white sock (diffusion) over the umbrella; is that stronger or softer then using just a white parabolic? 

Attached is an image I use the Magnum reflector as my main key light (coming in through a window on the right).  This is a look I would like to produce, only softer (and bluer, but I got that handled).
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UlfKrentz

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Re: Standard vs Parabolic Umbrella?
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2016, 03:22:23 pm »

Joe, if you´re looking for a pleasant shadow skip the umbrellas. What you are really looking for is a big eye fresnel like the one from K5600. May be you find a place to rent it. If you can´t find one you may use something like broncolors flooter or just use your magnum reflector and diffuse it through Lee 410 or 250. Please note the distance from light to filter is important (don´t put it directly on the lamp) so you will need a small frame (48x48"). Also Chimera has great soft boxes, you might use one with 1/4 grid diffusion screen. Don't use it as intended but try to mount your head with the reflector to create a hot spot. Alternately you could bounce over a flat silver board. This will all work great, be creative with what you have!

Cheers
Ulf

JoeKitchen

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Re: Standard vs Parabolic Umbrella?
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2016, 03:38:11 pm »

Ulf, those K5600s look nice.  I would love to rent them, but Philadelphia is very limited with what we have to rent. 

However, I may have to run up to NYC to get a projection adapter for my strobes, which is another thing I would need for this project.  I will need to see. 

Plus, I want to limit the budget for this personal project at $500. 

The problem with this project is that I would be shooting from the sidewalk for one of the images.  You don't need a permit in Philadelphia to have grip and lighting on the sidewalk, however you can't block foot traffic, and the sidewalks are thin.  (Maybe 5 feet wide) 

Shooting the magnum through a 1/4 diffusion panel may be the best idea idea.  I will have to look into that. 

An umbrella outside always concerns me with the wind anyway. 
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UlfKrentz

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Re: Standard vs Parabolic Umbrella?
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2016, 03:38:24 pm »


Your assistant is correct. Parabolic reflectors produce a collimated beam of light along the axis it is aimed at. That means that the shadows it casts around objects are sharper defined, and the fall-off at the beam edge is sharper (so less uncontrollable stray light). That is for a well focused beam, but one can usually modify the position of the light-source itself (depth inside the parabola), to adjust the characteristics (wider beam with more gradual fall-off and softer shadows if the parabola is large enough, or is fitted with a diffuser).
 

Bart, those paras don´t create a pleasant shadow at all. And this is also speaking about Briese. Actually if you move the light source out of the focus it doesn´t even work as a parabolic at all. If you want a razor sharp clear shadow use an ellipsoid. That said, I use paras in all sizes and they have their place, you just need to know for what.

BTW, I tested broncolors white para once, you need A LOT of power, those are a black hole. We ended in not using it for that shot.

JoeKitchen

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Re: Standard vs Parabolic Umbrella?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2016, 03:42:07 pm »

Bart, those paras don´t create a pleasant shadow at all. And this is also speaking about Briese. Actually if you move the light source out of the focus it doesn´t even work as a parabolic at all. If you want a razor sharp clear shadow use an ellipsoid. That said, I use paras in all sizes and they have their place, you just need to know for what.

BTW, I tested broncolors white para once, you need A LOT of power, those are a black hole. We ended in not using it for that shot.

Glad I asked.  I really really don't like bad shadows, especially ones that start to separate into a few weaker shadows, which is why I like the Magnum so much. 
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UlfKrentz

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Re: Standard vs Parabolic Umbrella?
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2016, 03:47:17 pm »


However, I may have to run up to NYC to get a projection adapter for my strobes, which is another thing I would need for this project.  I will need to see. 


No sure what you plan with this but be prepared to not get much light out of them and/or have minor optical quality...

JoeKitchen

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Re: Standard vs Parabolic Umbrella?
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2016, 03:59:15 pm »

No sure what you plan with this but be prepared to not get much light out of them and/or have minor optical quality...

I have another image idea I would like to produce inside looking at the bar.  The idea would be to have a liquor bottle (the product) on the bar, glowing, with a couple models being into each other.  I would produce a late night moonlit feel and want to have a little bit of moonlight hitting the background of the bar, just to break it up. 

My thought would be to use the projection adapter with a gobo for this, and make it a little out of focus.  This would not be a main light at all, just something to add a nuance.  Also, no need to gel it, since most everything else will be at 3200 to 3800 K, depending on the light. 

Not really sure about this yet.  All I know is that I do need some type of strobe that will work well with a gobo.  But I may just end up spending twice the price and renting a Profoto Zoom Spot, which is much better suited for use with gobos and irises. 
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Standard vs Parabolic Umbrella?
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2016, 04:06:10 pm »

The other thing I am trying to figure out is how to produce a large bank of tungsten light as fill to contrast the 3850K balanced strobes without screwing up how the bottle looks and producing odd reflections. 

(BTW, I love playing tungstens against strobes; the color difference is really nice to work with.)   

I feel like having three, or four, 750w tota-lights hitting a silver lame rag and reflecting through a 12 foot silk should do the trick. 

Actually, I am hoping that also the silver rag will pump the tungstens to 3400K, which will be enough to contrast the cooler strobes, but also contrast the 2900K, or lower, interior ambient light. 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 04:10:07 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Ellis Vener

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Re: Standard vs Parabolic Umbrella?
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2016, 08:23:01 pm »

Joe, if you´re looking for a pleasant shadow skip the umbrellas. What you are really looking for is a big eye fresnel like the one from K5600. May be you find a place to rent it. If you can´t find one you may use something like broncolors flooter or just use your magnum reflector and diffuse it through Lee 410 or 250. Please note the distance from light to filter is important (don´t put it directly on the lamp) so you will need a small frame (48x48"). Also Chimera has great soft boxes, you might use one with 1/4 grid diffusion screen. Don't use it as intended but try to mount your head with the reflector to create a hot spot. Alternately you could bounce over a flat silver board. This will all work great, be creative with what you have!

Cheers
Ulf

The K5600 Big Eye Fresnel is terrific but it is not a parabolic reflector and the light you can create with it is different than what you get from a parabolic dish reflector or semi-paroblic umbrella . The parabolic I find useful for throwing light a long way and the Big Eye is great  at creating a really fine "punchy" light for portraits and still lives. Along with K5600 HMI Jokers (which I rent) I use my Big Eye with either a Paul C. Buff, Inc.  Einstein E640  monolight  or a speedlite.

Another interesting parabolic reflector is the now discontinued Paul C. Buff Retro Laser. It looks like a 22" wide beauty Dish but the light points back into the  highly polished aluminum bowl. You focus the light by sliding it along a short rod that fits into your flashes umbrella mount, the closer that umbrella mount is to the flash tube the better the result the flash tube in the right spot, or if you have Balcar type mounts on your flash a three legged cage centers the light. When the light is at the optimum focus distance  the light produced by the Retro-Laser is an intense collimated beam.  it is great for simulating hard direct sun.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 08:32:15 pm by Ellis Vener »
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UlfKrentz

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Re: Standard vs Parabolic Umbrella?
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2016, 04:49:58 am »

The K5600 Big Eye Fresnel is terrific but it is not a parabolic reflector and the light you can create with it is different than what you get from a parabolic dish reflector or semi-paroblic umbrella . snip

True, that´s exactly why I suggested to use it instead of the para (for this setup). True "hard" parabolics are available from various manufacturers, like Brieses "Downlight" (This is like a true spotted HMI PAR for strobes!), broncolor has the "Satellites" and the most exotic one is from Bläsing (90cm polished aluminum) all those are "vicious" and add a lot of value to your lighting box. None of them would be suited here though.

Cheers
Ulf

Conner999

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Re: Standard vs Parabolic Umbrella?
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2016, 08:59:48 am »

It may or may not give you the look you have in mind, but the Profoto WideZoom reflector gives a much wider, very even and somewhat softer-edged light than the magnum. Is a bit larger diameter and has a softer silver textured interior. I still may be too small/ hard, but if the magnum is close to what you're looking for OP, it may help.
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Harold Clark

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Re: Standard vs Parabolic Umbrella?
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2016, 09:13:36 am »

I was thinking the parabolic umbrellas might be useful for large group photos. I do quite a few portrait and architectural and industrial shoots for a variety of companies, and sometimes have been asked to photograph all the attendees at the annual shareholders meeting for instance. These have ranged from 250-400 people. It is difficult to maintain even lighting back to front, I wonder whether parabolics could be feathered to direct more light to the back of the group, as well as being more efficient overall.
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