Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Leica S 007 feedbacks?  (Read 5354 times)

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Leica S 007 feedbacks?
« on: March 14, 2016, 07:50:15 pm »

The 007 has been available for a few months now, does someone have feedback to share in terms of:
- image quality at low ISO
- AF speed/accuracy/reliability
- overall user experience
- any remaining bugs/annoyances

The reference points I would be most interested in would be the S 006 and D810.

Thank you.

Cheers,
Bernard

erlingmmoe

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18
Re: Leica S 007 feedbacks?
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2016, 08:15:22 am »

An excerpt from something I wrote in another forum in a discussion that started with a comparison with the 100 mpix XF camera:

"I can only speak as an enthusiast amateur, and for me the S007 is perfect.  If you need tech cam, 100 mpix etc., that is an entirely different league, and price point, and I understand and respect that for some this is a requirement.
 
I have had the whole series, started with the S2, upgraded to a (used) S006 which I really loved, but chose to upgrade to S007. Why? Let me call it "shooting envelope", or usage scenarios.
 
When I went from M to S, my biggest surprise was how vulnerable MF was to camera shake. I loved the S2 and S006, but in too many situations i did not get the necessary shutter speed to "get what I paid for". If you shoot too slow shutter, you won't get the ultimate quality from the camera. More Mpix will make the camera even more vulnerable for camera shake. With the S007 I can bump up the ISO to a level where i can get the right shutter speed without getting punished with noise because of high ISO.
 
This is also valid outdoors. A week ago ago i was at Pescadero Creek in California. Full daylight, but deep into forest with tall trees, and limited light. Even on ISO 400 I was down to 1/45 with the 24mm on the S007, in other situations (weddings ) i need even higher ISO.
 
The main argument for me for the S007 is the versatility, or the extended "shooting envelope". I shoot mainly without tripod (except landscapes, aurora borealis etc.). If you are a free-hand shooter, the higher ISO of the S007 greatly extends the usage envelope for the camera. 37,5 mpix is a compromise, I agree, but you don't shoot 100 mpix handheld, I think the S007 is optimal in resolution. With the fantastic optics (love the 24!) it gives you the MF look."
Logged
- ErlingMM

siddhaarta

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 130
Re: Leica S 007 feedbacks?
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2016, 01:15:02 pm »

I have been using the 007 some months now and still have my D810 but only use it for wildlife. I sold all my ZF lenses (21/25/35/100) as I think the Leica alternatives are better. For me also the "shooting envelope" has been a main factor to go with Leica. Here are some preliminary conclusions which maybe of interest:

- Side by side the Nikon is still faster and quieter but not by a far extend. For a MF, the Leica is very responsive and sufficiently close to the D810. The new processor is up to the task. The Leica is heavier, but I compensated this with less lenses. There is no Silent Wave motor but the noises the lenses produce are not that annoying as I thought.

- Shutter vibration has been no issue, very soft, indeed it is like closing a Mercedes door. The viewfinder is much better than the Nikon. I also prefer the simplistic user interface of the Leica with programable user scenarios which I use all the time (Nikon does not have that).

- The AF has some issues, at least for me, the focus point selects sometimes another point that it should, resulting in back or front focus issues. Nothing very consistent, but you better check your photos.

- The Nikon/Sony sensor is clearly better in terms of DR and malleability. I was worried about that, but in practice it has not been a big issue with my landscape photography.

- I was thinking to go the Otus line, but at the end did not go this way, mainly because of the limited lens selection (no 19/21 or 24/25) and no AF. With wide angles lack of AF is ok, but not so much for standard and tele lenses. I would say the Leica lenses are in the same league as the Otuses, as far as I could test it. Nice thing of Leica S lenses is that you can use them very well with MF. It is not the same buttery feeling as Otuses or ZF, but still very good.

- I made some side by side comparisons when I still had my Zeiss ZF2 wide angles. The Leicas - in my opinion - are clearly better in terms of out of focus rendering, tonal transitions, micro contrast. The borders are very, very good. The lenses have a very distinct character, compared to Leica M or Zeiss, and I like it. I think that the lenses can do much more than 37 MP, but sure the fat pixels help to augment the acuity, this is visible at 100% comparing with the Nikon D810.

- I use Lightroom and with the Nikon files it is a constant fight, as I do not like the Adobe handling of the NEF files. This has gone with the Leica.The DNG files look very good out of the box and it is easy to tweak them with some color profiling.

Summary: It was a heavy "investment" for me as an amateur, but I am a happy camper and have no plans to go back.

« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 01:18:39 pm by siddhaarta »
Logged

erlingmmoe

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18
Re: Leica S 007 feedbacks?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2016, 08:28:58 am »

You want to know what the S is capable of (in the hands of a good photographer)? Sharp enough for you?
Check out this video (painful to watch) with Bruce Gilden and his American portraits:
Logged
- ErlingMM

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: Leica S 007 feedbacks?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2016, 03:41:13 pm »


......"- The Nikon/Sony sensor is clearly better in terms of DR and malleability. I was worried about that, but in practice it has not been a big issue with my landscape photography.".......



I don't have (yet) a Leica S but I do own a Nikon 36mp DSLR and currently using 3 (all CCD) MFDBs on my Contax 645 system, I also have the JAS C645 to Nikon lens adapter which allows me to use all my C645 Zeiss glass on my Nikons with full dedication exactly if the C645 lenses where made for the Nikon cameras.  Thus, I can compare the sensors directly using the same glass.... It seems to me that DR has a different meaning depending on ones approach to photography.... In my observations, I have yet to see a DSLR sensor that can approach the DR of an MF sensor when it comes down to print a photograph... Let me explain this:

When capturing an image and then open it on my monitor, DR looks to be more with the DSLR, but... whenever I try to process the files for what it would make a "photo-graph" which would have the looks/presentation that would satisfy the visualisation -in my mind- of the photo-graph that existed just before capturing, I find it impossible to keep the DR that was captured with the DSLR and really easy to so with any of the MFDBs...
In other words, (IMO) some people tend to confuse what is first presented to them when they first open a file on their screen for being the usable DR too... But in reality, when one process a file and aims for his whites to look as ...whites (and not "brown sugar whites") or to have the right tonality/contrast in the darker or mid-light areas (and not a dull/hazy look) which would lead to a great print, that's the DR one should look for and compare! Perhaps, is all the above the reason why you find (me too) the DSLR files "a constant fight" to process when compared to the S-007 files?  ;)

IMO, DR extension can only be judged after processing a file... What it looks to be in the captured file, is not important at all as to be mentioned. Finally, I find LR/ACR to be very good with DNG files, but if one wants to maximise (considerably) the (real) DR out of his DSLRs, I would strongly recommend to use Capture One or Phocus to do that... Not that DR extension will then be the one of an MF sensor, but it will be visibly better than LR at the end result...
Logged

JV

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1013
Re: Leica S 007 feedbacks?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2016, 07:45:25 pm »

On the Leica Camera Blog you can find more examples of images taken with (all models of) the Leica S:
http://blog.leica-camera.com/topics/made-with/leica-s/
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: Leica S 007 feedbacks?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2016, 09:09:08 pm »

Theo, i think the 007 is a Cmos chip, a larger version of the rangefinder.

I don't have (yet) a Leica S but I do own a Nikon 36mp DSLR and currently using 3 (all CCD) MFDBs on my Contax 645 system, I also have the JAS C645 to Nikon lens adapter which allows me to use all my C645 Zeiss glass on my Nikons with full dedication exactly if the C645 lenses where made for the Nikon cameras.  Thus, I can compare the sensors directly using the same glass.... It seems to me that DR has a different meaning depending on ones approach to photography.... In my observations, I have yet to see a DSLR sensor that can approach the DR of an MF sensor when it comes down to print a photograph... Let me explain this:

When capturing an image and then open it on my monitor, DR looks to be more with the DSLR, but... whenever I try to process the files for what it would make a "photo-graph" which would have the looks/presentation that would satisfy the visualisation -in my mind- of the photo-graph that existed just before capturing, I find it impossible to keep the DR that was captured with the DSLR and really easy to so with any of the MFDBs...
In other words, (IMO) some people tend to confuse what is first presented to them when they first open a file on their screen for being the usable DR too... But in reality, when one process a file and aims for his whites to look as ...whites (and not "brown sugar whites") or to have the right tonality/contrast in the darker or mid-light areas (and not a dull/hazy look) which would lead to a great print, that's the DR one should look for and compare! Perhaps, is all the above the reason why you find (me too) the DSLR files "a constant fight" to process when compared to the S-007 files?  ;)

IMO, DR extension can only be judged after processing a file... What it looks to be in the captured file, is not important at all as to be mentioned. Finally, I find LR/ACR to be very good with DNG files, but if one wants to maximise (considerably) the (real) DR out of his DSLRs, I would strongly recommend to use Capture One or Phocus to do that... Not that DR extension will then be the one of an MF sensor, but it will be visibly better than LR at the end result...
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: Leica S 007 feedbacks?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2016, 09:57:24 pm »

Theo, i think the 007 is a Cmos chip, a larger version of the rangefinder.

Who said different? My reply was generally on how people get false impressions about a sensor's ability for extended DR, OTOH, the S 007 sensor, is not a larger version of the rangefinder (m) chip... it is a larger version of the SL chip (or rather the later is a cropped version of it). Leica's insist to stick with 6μm pixel size, does seem to create some confusion on sensors... The m240 sensor is a rather old design (now) and is not fast enough to do 4k video or HQ LV....
Logged

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Leica S 007 feedbacks?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2016, 10:06:17 pm »

Thank you all for your feedbacks.

cheers,
Bernard

peterv

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 160
    • facebook
Re: Leica S 007 feedbacks?
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2016, 05:52:41 am »

... the S 007 sensor, is not a larger version of the rangefinder (m) chip... it is a larger version of the SL chip (or rather the later is a cropped version of it). Leica's insist to stick with 6μm pixel size, does seem to create some confusion on sensors...

Sorry, your info is wrong.

S is (mostly) the same sensor as M. SL is (mostly) the same sensor as Q.
Logged

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: Leica S 007 feedbacks?
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2016, 05:59:40 am »

Sorry, your info is wrong.

S is (mostly) the same sensor as M. SL is (mostly) the same sensor as Q.

Reference?
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: Leica S 007 feedbacks?
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2016, 08:53:38 am »

Reference?

I think these are basically repurposed (oversized) machine vision circuit designs - the advantage is probably that they are scalable, fast, flexible, can be run off any fab, can be adressed in a bunch of ways and could serve as a good base for a movie camera. Just guessing :)

There is one thing I like about Sony, and that is that they supply camera chips, enough of them that it makes sense for them to design camera chips.

Edmund
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: Leica S 007 feedbacks?
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2016, 03:47:23 pm »

I think these are basically repurposed (oversized) machine vision circuit designs - the advantage is probably that they are scalable, fast, flexible, can be run off any fab, can be adressed in a bunch of ways and could serve as a good base for a movie camera. Just guessing :)

There is one thing I like about Sony, and that is that they supply camera chips, enough of them that it makes sense for them to design camera chips.

Edmund

I guess that if the maker claims "a new sensor" we have to stick with that... What every different individual "guesses" (which most of the time has to do with him being in favour or not for a maker) without any reference whatsoever, is by definition "questionable info"...
Logged

peterv

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 160
    • facebook
Re: Leica S 007 feedbacks?
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2016, 04:22:59 pm »

You could do a simple Google search yourself, instead of making snarky remarks, thinking you're always right and asking others to do your homework for you.

Anyway, you will most likely come up with remarks these 'references' aren't valid, and frankly, I cannot be bothered. Hereafter, I will say no more on this subject.

Leica S and Leica M:

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/55913-leica-s-007-starts-career-significantly-lower-price-2.html#post658057

Leica SL and Leica Q:

http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Leica-SL-sensor-review-Best-performing-Leica-to-date
Logged

siddhaarta

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 130
Re: Leica S 007 feedbacks?
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2016, 05:28:11 pm »


Anyway, you will most likely come up with remarks these 'references' aren't valid

As David Farkas is a Leica Dealer with good connections to Leica HQ, I would assume he would not write that without some first hand info; so this reference should be indeed valid.

In practical terms (I have used the M240 for a while), I would confirm that the malleability of M240 files is quite similar to the S007 files. On the other hand, the S007 uses the Maestro II processor, whereas the M240 works with the previous generation which might explain the 4K question (only a guess).
« Last Edit: March 17, 2016, 05:37:40 pm by siddhaarta »
Logged

razrblck

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 482
  • Chill
    • Instagram
Re: Leica S 007 feedbacks?
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2016, 04:57:52 am »

On the other hand, the S007 uses the Maestro II processor, whereas the M240 works with the previous generation which might explain the 4K question (only a guess).

Your guess is right. The S007 also has improved A/D converters (and more of them), that provide a fast enough readout for 4K video and 3.5fps at full resolution.
Logged
Instagram (updated often)

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: Leica S 007 feedbacks?
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2016, 06:27:49 pm »

As David Farkas is a Leica Dealer with good connections to Leica HQ, I would assume he would not write that without some first hand info; so this reference should be indeed valid.


Exactly! David Farkas words were: "...is based off of the same architecture as that in the M240. Leica has solved the issue of incident angle by utilizing a newly designed conical microlens shape along with the thinnest CMOS sensor on the market."... I guess all next sensors are based and progress on the knowledge that has been gained from the previous ones... Similarity for malleability of files (...but extended?) is also common among sensor makers...

Logged

FredDelgado

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2
Re: Leica S 007 feedbacks?
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2016, 08:54:03 pm »

I picked up a Leica S (007) about four months ago with the 120 mm macro and the 70 mm lenses.  Under the right conditions,  I am finding the image quality to be more than I hoped for. Tonality and resolution are a whole step up for me.  I don't care much about technical details so I won't go there.  I am quite pleased with the lenses; I had expected them to be superb and they are.  Many of my images are made with Profoto D1's.  The combination of decent lighting with the S at ISO 100 has been a boon for me.  I also have seen some fine imagery in the field using tripod and low ISO.  If I hand-hold at high ISO there usually is no particular advantage although I have one print which was made that way and the smooth look is quite nice.

The second release of 007 firmware seemed to improve autofocus.  I find it more than adequate but this is not a camera for rapid action shooting.

There is a gotcha which I am hoping Leica engineering will resolve this year. In a Windows environment, there is no support for tethered shooting.  I am told it is coming and I hope so as I would prefer to shoot tethered in the studio all the time. I also find the menu interface to sometimes get in the way; it is minimal but maybe a bit too minimal.

Overall, I am glad I made the investment.  I hope to pick up a wide angle this year and I am confident it will be a good lens. 

Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Leica S 007 feedbacks?
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2016, 06:11:54 am »

Hi,

Bill Claff has some measurement data on the sensors discussed. Very clear that M and S (type 7) use a very similar sensor while Q and SL use a different kind of sensor.

Best regards
Erik


You could do a simple Google search yourself, instead of making snarky remarks, thinking you're always right and asking others to do your homework for you.

Anyway, you will most likely come up with remarks these 'references' aren't valid, and frankly, I cannot be bothered. Hereafter, I will say no more on this subject.

Leica S and Leica M:

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/55913-leica-s-007-starts-career-significantly-lower-price-2.html#post658057

Leica SL and Leica Q:

http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Leica-SL-sensor-review-Best-performing-Leica-to-date
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

peterv

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 160
    • facebook
Re: Leica S 007 feedbacks?
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2016, 10:15:48 am »

Thanks for the extra 'reference" Erik, this confirms what I've been trying to get across.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up