Any pro using formable HMI lighting?

[rogan]

Can´t second that. We use bron stuff on Location, no issues at all. The HMI heads in Pulso style and the twin heads may be shock sensitive, but as you apply with the jokers, just pull the bulbs and you´re OK to travel. Had a few issues with their ballast though. In more than 20 years we had some major issues with strobe equipment, several defective capacitors with Hensel packs, one completely bursting flash tube in a profoto Pro Head, that shortened the output and therefore also resulted in a defective pack afterwards and a blown up Pro7 pack which was a well cared rental unit. While Profoto might travel better, it´s just another experience or I was lucky.

For the record, we use a lot of those "fancy" adjustments, I feel limited when renting other brands. YMMV.

Single exposure, fancy broncolor settings:

http://www.krentzphotography.com/#!hype/cd7c

FWIW I was referring to the strobe gear. Have never used Bron hot lights. Strobes though are really finicky and hate genes. After 20 years have had a few profit issues but my early Bron were close to 100% failure and after awhile you just give up. I travel to +/- 30 countries a year to shoot and gear is checked a tossed around a lot. And most places I end up don't have rental houses when I arrive.
And again, teal?
That all said glad the Bron works for you and you are happy.

[yashima]

@Rogan: I agree that if you are on the road extensively then Profoto might be the most suitable. However Broncolor shouldn't be as fragile as you said, maybe your experience was with older packs? By the way, do you use Profoto modifiers with your Joker Bug? Whats your take on it?

@Ulf: back to your point about HMI as point source. I notice older Broncolor HMIs (and Elinchrom, Profoto) need UV filter dome that is slightly opaque, making it less effective as a point source. How come the newer HMIs don't need one? Is the UV coating built in to the bulb now?

[Bo Dez]

I agree with BC's comments on Tungsten. It has a roundness I find somewhat lacking in HMI. I work with a mix of Tungsten and HMI, pretty much all arri in sizes from 150w to 6K. But then HMI has a brilliance that I don't quite find in Tungsten. So it depends on a lot of things. Heat and power and two other considerations also.

But I also use a lot of Kino Tegra lighting too. It has another look again that I like. You don't have to worry about power consumption on location and it's softness is stunning. Mixing it in with the 150 and 300w sources is nice and is great for balancing with available light on location.

Personally I'm not a fan of LED lighting, It's the colour and also I just find it too harsh a source and feel it has a very unnatural feel that doesn't sit right with me.

[yashima]

@bcooter: If you like fresnel you can mount Broncolor HMI onto the Flooter. The output is quite poor but the quality the of light should be there. I really like what K5600 is doing too, and they have also come out with Broncolor adapter for the Joker, so that's interesting.

By the way, just as we speak, there is an Bron DW800 for sale at around half price:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIGHTLY-USED-kobold-800w-HMI-Kit-EXTRAS-/281972063506?rmvSB=true

[UlfKrentz]

FWIW I was referring to the strobe gear. Have never used Bron hot lights. Strobes though are really finicky and hate genes. After 20 years have had a few profit issues but my early Bron were close to 100% failure and after awhile you just give up. I travel to +/- 30 countries a year to shoot and gear is checked a tossed around a lot. And most places I end up don't have rental houses when I arrive.
And again, teal?
That all said glad the Bron works for you and you are happy.

I see your point. Obviously there must be a reason profoto is in every rental place :-) We switched to broncolor short after the grafit A became available, so I cannot speak for their older equipment or the entry line level. Of course I don´t doubt and respect your experience, it has just not been mine. Cheers!

[UlfKrentz]

@Ulf: back to your point about HMI as point source. I notice older Broncolor HMIs (and Elinchrom, Profoto) need UV filter dome that is slightly opaque, making it less effective as a point source. How come the newer HMIs don't need one? Is the UV coating built in to the bulb now?

@Yashima, HMI lights emit a significant amount of UV radiation. The new line of G22 based 800W globes are indeed UV stopping. Also Osram makes UVS globes now, I think they will probably replace the standard line. Please note that the protection glass is not only for UV shield but also keeps the lamp as a closed system, so in case of a bursting lamp no debris will harm anybody. This broken glass is extremely hot and could cause severe injuries. Usually there is a little switch that takes control if the glass sits in place /the lamp is closed.
At least the UV domes of broncolor are available in clear or frosted, so for a better point source you´ll choose a clear one.

Cheers
Ulf

[UlfKrentz]

@BC, I heard there is not one brand Arri chinese knock off. There must indeed be one brand where even the electronic boards of the ballasts are interchangeable with the Arri originals. Other knock offs die fast from what I read.

If you´re going K5600 take a look at the Big Eye which for me is their most compelling product. Could be made better mechanically (we also needed to replace a few screws as they were too short, and this is metric thread) They are near Paris so should be easy for you to get a hands on. Those guys will come and visit you.

Which teal HMIs are you using, their recent line or the discontinued 575? Did you narrow the error down to the head or the ballast? Two and a half out of six is far from being acceptable.

Cheers
Ulf

[UlfKrentz]

Nothing too exotic in the older ballast, the few parts that are really specific usually never die, you just need to find someone who is willing to care about it. The older heads are running cooler and with less issues than the newer ones. With the heads it boils down to the security switch, the thermal cut off or the bulb itself which might not run in the correct electrical parameters for any reason. You might also try to test the head with a 575 globe (and set to "A") If there is something wrong with the newer ballast have them serviced and be clear you want them back in perfect condition.

Cheers
Ulf

[UlfKrentz]

It´s not the switch but the little clips that don´t hold the dome tight enough. The thermal thing is an issue though. I´m sure broncolor will take care of you as they are not interested in unhappy customers.

Cheers
Ulf

[yashima]

@bcooter, ulf: If the ballast is the problem, I think the head can be rewired to work with standard Arri/Powergems ballast. Do you think its worth the hassle Ulf?

[UlfKrentz]

@bcooter, ulf: If the ballast is the problem, I think the head can be rewired to work with standard Arri/Powergems ballast. Do you think its worth the hassle Ulf?

Unfortunately not that easy, you would need to have an extra box in between. The older heads require an additional 24V power supply for fan and ignitor (that´s how the fan runs to cool them down after switching them off at the head).

[rogan]

Ulf,
I do use some Profoto modifiers but the 800 joker gets so hot very few things I want on the front. The adapter works great.
Cooter, if interested I might be selling my 800, contact me.
I'm looking at LED for travel jobs. The heat, weight and size are a drawback as airline regulations are getting tougher and tougher. I seriously thought LED would be brighter by now as I would love a battery powered 1.2K HMI equivilent.....Boy can dream.

[rogan]

Rogan you know how to reach me give me a price.

In regards to switching ballasts, you get a ballast that sometimes works and weighs twice, though I had a film electrical company look at doing that.

I just think it's better to keep head and ballast from one maker.


BC

Leaving today for 2 week location job but call when back

[Hywel]

Like the OP I'm keeping an eye out for something to finally come along which is formable, with decent brightness, and small enough power drain to run from household circuits (at least we're on 240 V 13 amps which is much friendlier than US wall supply).

I've tried a couple of cheap and cheerful options from Hensel: they have a 150 W metal-vapour (more or less the same as HMI, light output like 650 W Tungsten but daylight balanced) and 1000 W tungsten option. They use regular Hensel softboxes/reflectors/etc.. They have fans but are fairly quiet; the Tungsten you can turn the fan off for short periods which is useful.

Once these have been through a couple of layers of diffusion in a softbox they are OK to light a corner or a small room, but wouldn't light a studio or a large room.

I don't use them much, to be honest, because they fall in between two camps- not as bright as a full-on HMI, nor as portable and cool running as LED panels.
And I'm really not sure I'd want to use anything more powerful because of the heat build-up in regular light modifiers.


I've been using some "first generation" LED panels from Gekko called Kelvin Tiles. They are fully colour controllable which I like (not just colour temperature, but also green-magenta shift, and even the option to control each of the six LED colour independently if you want party gel colours or special effects). They're great except for the design flaw which makes the damn things overheat after about 30 minutes and have sections of the light start to flicker. I've got six of them so I always have spare sitting around to swap out when that happens. Oh, and they aren't especially bright- again will light a corner or a small room, but they're not a replacement for an 800 W HMI!


Nonetheless I think LED is probably the way I will go in the future. These new Arri panels look interesting:
http://www.arri.com/skypanel/
in conjunction with the LED Fresnels:
http://www.arri.com/lighting/lighting_equipment/lampheads/led_lampheads/l_series

as do these Hensel light bars (I do love my strip softboxes, and would like lights in that long and thing format):
http://www.linhofstudio.com/products/Hensel-Continuous-Lights

The LEDs I have at the moment aren't bright enough to really cut it for the Hasselblad, but they're proving very useful with the Sony A7RII especially mixed with window overcast daylight (which we get quite a lot)!

Great to hear people's experiences of the Bron/Kobold and Joker bug options... but I'm addicted to variable colour and variable intensity now I don't think I can go back to gels...

Cheers, Hywel

[Chris L]

I do love constant lighting for some portrait work I've done.  In fact, I've been shooting that all on the RED, so we don't have to "click" photos, we just put a person out there at 24 frames per second and pull the individual still after we've hit a good pose/gesture.  Has worked great and much less stressful for the subject.

-CB

Just curious if you change your shutter speed ( angle ) if you know you are shooting motion with stills only in mind, the old 24p shoot at 1/50 second becomes not necessary, do you crank up the shutter speed to get a sharper still photo?

[Chris Barrett]

Just curious if you change your shutter speed ( angle ) if you know you are shooting motion with stills only in mind, the old 24p shoot at 1/50 second becomes not necessary, do you crank up the shutter speed to get a sharper still photo?

Yeah, totally.  If we don't need to produce actual video, I'll crank the shutter speed up to 1/100th or more.

[UlfKrentz]

as do these Hensel light bars (I do love my strip softboxes, and would like lights in that long and thing format):
http://www.linhofstudio.com/products/Hensel-Continuous-Lights

The LEDs I have at the moment aren't bright enough to really cut it for the Hasselblad, but they're proving very useful with the Sony A7RII especially mixed with window overcast daylight (which we get quite a lot)!

Great to hear people's experiences of the Bron/Kobold and Joker bug options... but I'm addicted to variable colour and variable intensity now I don't think I can go back to gels...

Cheers, Hywel

Hywel, those light bars are strobe units. For continuous light you can either use your soft boxes, fluorescents or this dedicated product from broncolor:

http://www.bron.ch/kobold-broadcast/products/daylight-hmi/showproduct/dw-400/litepipe

I personally very much enjoy using broncolor / Kobold 400s with the PAR reflector for bouncing off various boards or use them with the light pipe. They also work well with Chimeras, either with the same PAR reflector or the dedicated adapter, depending on your needs, a very variable system, no fan.
Downsite of HMI still is their price and a great color variation from bulb to bulb. They are daylight balanced, have an acceptable CRI and for their output they are running cool.

Cheers
Ulf

[Hywel]

Apologies, I meant these ones:

http://hensel.eu/katalog/products/continuous-light/dauerlicht-lightbar-130-led.html

The light pipes and the equivalent Joker products are very appealing to me, they'd be the first thing I'd look into if I go down the HMI route. No fan is hugely appealing, I'll have to take a closer look at the Broncolor system, thanks Ulf!

How bad is the colour variation from bulb to bulb, do you have a vague feeling for Kelvin difference? Is it mostly colour temperature or is it magenta/green shift, or something more complicated?

Cheers, Hywel

[UlfKrentz]

Apologies, I meant these ones:

http://hensel.eu/katalog/products/continuous-light/dauerlicht-lightbar-130-led.html

The light pipes and the equivalent Joker products are very appealing to me, they'd be the first thing I'd look into if I go down the HMI route. No fan is hugely appealing, I'll have to take a closer look at the Broncolor system, thanks Ulf!

How bad is the colour variation from bulb to bulb, do you have a vague feeling for Kelvin difference? Is it mostly colour temperature or is it magenta/green shift, or something more complicated?

Cheers, Hywel

Hywel, it´s actually not that bad, sometimes you see a hue by eye but the camera is much more forgiving and recording fine. It´s a bit strange in this regard, HMI is just not like tungsten or strobe. I experienced quite a variation in a range of different 575W bulbs. The 200, 400 and 800Watt bulbs seem to be a bit more precise. I won´t recommend mixing bulbs from different manufacturers though. Also while dimming is possible for about one stop be aware CT rises when dimmed, often in combination with slightly decreased CRI. I always try to run them at their nominated wattage for this reason. I agree the development of LED / Plasma lights is very promising and they are getting better very fast. I bought two LED panels some time ago and I absolutely dislike their color rendition, they are OK for a rim or background fill and they are great to run off batteries but I´d never use them for key. Unpleasing for the eye also, ugly catchlight (I better stop here, lol)...
Cheers
Ulf

[yashima]

As Ulf said, HMI colour temperature can vary, however, gradually over its lifetime. The upside is you dont have CT jumping from one shot to the next, it should be fairly consistent across a whole session, so post work is relatively simple.

@Ulf: Do you use Bron FCC meter? Does it help with this kind of issue. I'm thinking of getting myself one.