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Author Topic: Epson P800 Faint Roller Mark (not pizza wheel marks)  (Read 8817 times)

Joseph Kayne

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Epson P800 Faint Roller Mark (not pizza wheel marks)
« on: March 09, 2016, 11:26:49 AM »


I see this question has come up with both the P800 and the 3000 and I want to know if anyone has an update with any answers. I have experienced the same issue:

" I just love the output overall, the colors are spot on what I'm trying, the resolution is excellent and so on. But when examining the photos more closely I found a problem on which I'd like to have some opinions.

Printing on Canson Baryta Photographique, you can see some faint roller marks on the gloss of the paper. Not bad enough to be immediately visible but when you examine the print at an angle with a hardish light, you can easily see the faint, straight patterns of the rollers in the gloss at a slightly shallower angle (=closer to you) than the one of the light otherwise reflecting from the paper. Also they are visible at certain angles when the print is held vertically and the light source is almost directly above. Those are especially easy to find on the left side of an A3-sized print, though visible at the whole width of the print. The spacing and position match to the exit rollers visible on the output, so I'm assuming that they are causing these patterns. Mostly you can see them only in some very dark tones, but because I like to do much B&W stuff, I find them quite annoying - at least now when I've first spotted them..

The relevant(?) print driver settings are:

    Epson Premium Semigloss as a media type setting
    Full quality, no high speed/bi-directional in use
    Tested paper thicknesses 3-5
    Platen gap wide.
    Other settings default.

Tried both fine art feed and the normal feed, no difference. Except that the fine art feed also leaves some easily visible scratches to rear side of the paper... Epson seems to be quite rough at it's paper handling! The rear side is not a problem for me anyway, and if it was, the normal feed seems to handle the Canson equally well. The roller marks are not visible on a matte media, or plain stuff obviously, will try some other papers when I've got a chance.

Anyone having any experience and/or solutions for the issue? I've tried to search both the forums and did the usual googleing, but not sure I've found any specific issue with the exit rollers."

and:

"I'm mostly thrilled with the new P800 but today I made 15x15 prints on 17x22 sheets using Canson's Baryta Photographique. On the third print I noticed a small series of parallel lines about an inch long starting near the top edge of the image and running about an inch into the photo. Clearly roller marks. I've tried adjusting the platten gap to Wide and changing the paper thickness from the default of 3 to 4--really bad--and to 2 which only made the marks farther apart. The lines only happen at the beginning of the image--the end of the sheet first out of the printer--and only on the top center. The rest of the image is clean.

Has anyone else experienced this and, if so, did you fix it? "

Updated answers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson P800 Faint Roller Mark (not pizza wheel marks)
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2016, 12:13:34 PM »

I've been making many test prints with this printer using a variety of Super A3 fine art papers using the Front Fine Art feed and had no such problems. Perhaps there is a defect in your printer. I recommend calling Epson Pro-Graphics tech support for this product and discussing with them.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Joseph Kayne

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Re: Epson P800 Faint Roller Mark (not pizza wheel marks)
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2016, 12:21:53 PM »

I've been making many test prints with this printer using a variety of Super A3 fine art papers using the Front Fine Art feed and had no such problems. Perhaps there is a defect in your printer. I recommend calling Epson Pro-Graphics tech support for this product and discussing with them.

I sent back 2 printers with the same issue.  And the quoted sections in my original post were from others with the same problem.  I have send a detailed email to Epson support and hopefully it finds its way to a good technician....

Thanks. Joe.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson P800 Faint Roller Mark (not pizza wheel marks)
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2016, 12:28:17 PM »

I hope they respond positively to you. From my experience they usually do, especially with a new product and in particular - provided it is Epson paper being used when the problem occurs. Please let us know how it goes. Multiple exchange situations do happen, but eventually you'll get a good one. I had a similar multiple exchange experience with one of their office multi-function printers and we did get it all sorted out on the 4th round. So even three strikes and you're not necessarily out :-).
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Joseph Kayne

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Re: Epson P800 Faint Roller Mark (not pizza wheel marks)
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2016, 09:39:06 PM »

I looked at the marks more closely and it seems to line up with the large roller that brings or draws the paper down towards the print head to start printing. There seems to be a rubber threaded roller above a plastic roller which draws or pinches the paper down. Thoughts?
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samueljohnchia

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Re: Epson P800 Faint Roller Mark (not pizza wheel marks)
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2016, 10:37:10 PM »

I've been battling roller marks on various printers for many years. I suspect that it's prevalent and it affects softer papers more than tougher, denser harder papers. Most of the time it's because others don't know how to look (or shine a raking light source across the print surface) to see the roller marks, but they are there. Once seen, it's very hard to un-see them! I had to modify my Canon iPF8400 printer to change the springs to weaker ones in the pinch roller clamp assembly. Early on, I modified a Canon iPF5000 by cannibalizing the rollers from a Canon iPF5100, Canon updated the roller design so it wouldn't mark paper. I've just heard from a good friend that his Epson P9000 is marking up Canson Rag Photographique paper (the Epson 9900 does this too, there are old roller-marks posts from 2009 on this forum), and he discovered that the difference in pressure the rollers are exerting is tremendous. We still don't know exactly how much pressure it's exerting. My original Canon springs applies just over 2 kg of force for each set of 3-pair rollers, which I estimate to exert anywhere from 120-180psi of pressure. The new springs are just under half as strong. I don't know enough about the P800 to give any advise, but it seems that without relatively invasive printer "surgery", or switching to a more durable paper (not an option for me, I want to use all my favourite papers), there is little else to be done.
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macz5024

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Re: Epson P800 Faint Roller Mark (not pizza wheel marks)
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2016, 02:02:08 AM »

Same problem here on Canson Platine Fibre - tried all different feedings. Interestingly it only occurs on A4 and not on A3 or bigger. And it is also worse when you have a heavy load of ink (mainly dark blues) in the print. Tried two different P800 - same problem. Unfortunately it is not possible to cure it by applying a spray (Hahnemuehle Protective Spray).
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson P800 Faint Roller Mark (not pizza wheel marks)
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2016, 07:55:14 AM »

.............. I suspect that it's prevalent and it affects softer papers more than tougher, denser harder papers. Most of the time it's because others don't know how to look (or shine a raking light source across the print surface) to see the roller marks, but they are there.

Well, you may "suspect", and good you characterize it that way, because in principle this is a defect that should not characterize the products generally. I think the (admittedly imperfect) circumstantial evidence would support me on this hypothesis when you consider the number of such complaints we see on the Internet relative to the huge number of professional inkjet printers of all model types that have been on the market for the past fifteen years or more. It is a bit presumptuous on your part to assert that other people don't know how to look for defects on a print surface. Just for the record, I do not count myself as one of them. I say this with all due recognition of the personal experience you report, which I have no reason to doubt. In any event, reverting to the OP's problem, I still think his best option is to work with Epson on replacing his printer till he gets a good one.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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samueljohnchia

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Re: Epson P800 Faint Roller Mark (not pizza wheel marks)
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2016, 08:37:27 AM »

Well, you may "suspect", and good you characterize it that way, because in principle this is a defect that should not characterize the products generally. I think the (admittedly imperfect) circumstantial evidence would support me on this hypothesis when you consider the number of such complaints we see on the Internet relative to the huge number of professional inkjet printers of all model types that have been on the market for the past fifteen years or more. It is a bit presumptuous on your part to assert that other people don't know how to look for defects on a print surface. Just for the record, I do not count myself as one of them. I say this with all due recognition of the personal experience you report, which I have no reason to doubt. In any event, reverting to the OP's problem, I still think his best option is to work with Epson on replacing his printer till he gets a good one.

The printers from all three big companies generally feed paper without issue (no slippage and so no feed banding), and are generally well designed in that regard. Unfortunately many papers from Canson are relatively soft and mark easily. I have got an official response from Canon Japan that all printers which use pinch rollers to feed paper will certainly leave a mark one way or another, especially on some softer papers. That's not an unreasonable thing to say. Tougher papers like RC papers are generally fine. These marks are indeed not easy to see. I do not say this with contempt to my other luminary printing colleagues. I missed seeing them myself until the lighting circumstances were just right coincidentally and I happened to see it with a bit of luck. Re-loading a roll several times (say because of a feed skew error) can exacerbate the marks. If it's a single feed the marks can be so faint it's very nearly impossible to see except under strong directional light, 2 degrees or so from the surface of the paper, something one would never ever do ordinarily - many sorts of minor imperfections are prevalent anyway and reveal themselves in harsh lighting and in no way constitutes a real problem ordinarily. A luminary printing maven friend (whom I won't name) took quite a while to discover them for himself, simply because he never lit his prints that way to look at them. Even pointing out in person the marks to other discerning photographers and print makers, they take a while to see it for the first time. I don't know how the P800 roller clamps are designed, and how much pressure it's exerting on the paper. One needs to perform experiments to see how much pressure can be exerted on a given paper until pressure marks show up. Then the difficulty to discover how much pressure the P800 rollers are exerting. And how evenly. The P9000 is very uneven. The issue and evidence has been brought up to the top guys at Epson USA and they are looking into it now. I also initially thought it would be ideal to work with Canon to replace my printer, which they did, but it didn't solve the pressure marks. The pressures were simply too high for very soft paper like Platine and Rag Photographique owing to the inherent design and for obvious reasons, they won't change it. I hope the new Pro-4000/2000 printers have improved in this regard. There was one report that suggested Epson is likely aware of this issue, and the P10000/20000 printers are designed to handle the softer Legacy papers better.

I agree that since the printer is under warranty, Epson should take the responsibility to keep replacing the printer until a perfect one is in the hands of the OP. But if it's too much pressure being applied by the roller clamps due to an inherent design, then the marks may still remain after replacement. Macz5024 tried two P800s with Platine and still the prints show marks. Not a good sign!
« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 08:43:42 AM by samueljohnchia »
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samueljohnchia

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Re: Epson P800 Faint Roller Mark (not pizza wheel marks)
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2016, 08:39:30 AM »

Same problem here on Canson Platine Fibre - tried all different feedings. Interestingly it only occurs on A4 and not on A3 or bigger. And it is also worse when you have a heavy load of ink (mainly dark blues) in the print. Tried two different P800 - same problem. Unfortunately it is not possible to cure it by applying a spray (Hahnemuehle Protective Spray).

Not surprised - Platine is even softer than Baryta Photographique, so if anything it is more easily marked. No, the marks will not go away with a spray. The paper fibers have been crushed/dented/deformed/buckled under the pressure of the pinch rollers.
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Joseph Kayne

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Re: Epson P800 Faint Roller Mark (not pizza wheel marks)
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2016, 09:39:34 AM »

Not surprised - Platine is even softer than Baryta Photographique, so if anything it is more easily marked. No, the marks will not go away with a spray. The paper fibers have been crushed/dented/deformed/buckled under the pressure of the pinch rollers.

Any suggestions for "harder" papers that may have a close appearance to the Baryta papers like Hahn Photo Rag or Ilford Gold Fibre Silk?
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samueljohnchia

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Re: Epson P800 Faint Roller Mark (not pizza wheel marks)
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2016, 09:46:44 AM »

Any suggestions for "harder" papers that may have a close appearance to the Baryta papers like Hahn Photo Rag or Ilford Gold Fibre Silk?

It's difficult to say what would be tough enough, I don't know what kind of pressures the P800 is exerting on the paper surface. Photo Rag Baryta is quite tough already. Fine Art Baryta is probably another option. Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta is very dense and I like it most of all the baryta papers, and the surface looks like it's lacquered. Easily scratched however!
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson P800 Faint Roller Mark (not pizza wheel marks)
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2016, 09:53:45 AM »

Samuel,

As I said, I don't doubt your experience with the Canon printers you've used and I haven't. I have, however, by now printed extensively with both the Epson P800 and the Canon Pro-1000 using a variety of papers - Baryta, Platine, Matte in both printers. I re-examined about two dozen 13*19 inch prints just now under every conceivable angle of lighting and I can confirm with certainty that there are no roller marks or any marks of any kind. So the described behaviour is NOT supposed to be typical at least of these printers, and I was sent ordinary production units sealed off the shelf. As for the paper surfaces, there is a world of difference regarding whether the surface is printed or not. Once the ink hardens on these papers, the inked surface is very resistant to scruffs and scratches, unless it is really abused. Non-inked areas are another story, and those are sensitive.
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samueljohnchia

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Re: Epson P800 Faint Roller Mark (not pizza wheel marks)
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2016, 10:07:23 AM »

Thank you for sharing your experiences Mark. That's really valuable to know that your P800 and Pro-1000 isn't marking paper. I too was surprised to read this thread the first time. But that both Joseph and Macz have experienced issues isn't inspiring confidence! I've become somewhat allergic to roller marks of late, so pardon me if I come across as a little too obsessed about indentation-free prints. If I ever bought one of these printers I want one that doesn't chew up paper for sure.

Regarding scratch resistance, I too feel that there has been significant improvement with the new inks, but they are still relatively fragile. Heavily inked areas on matte papers like Canson Rag Photographique can be scuffed with relative ease. Sliding one print over another with no interleaving tissue is sufficient to mar the surface.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson P800 Faint Roller Mark (not pizza wheel marks)
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2016, 10:31:21 AM »

Samuel, you keep sending me back to my samples to re-check and re-check, But that's fine. It's worth verifying. In fact, someone who will go un-named and has a deep knowledge of these papers did advise me that the Platine-type surface is susceptible to scruffing. So I just went back to my Platine output (in this instance Epson Legacy Platine, as I am preparing a review of the Legacy papers) and I did two tests: (i) severe: rub the back of one sheet against the inked surface of the underlying one as if using sand-paper on a piece of wood, and (ii) light: pass the sheets over each other with very moderate pressure points to simulate normal movement in a storage box that has a bit of wiggle room. I applied both tests against a shadow area and a mid-tone to highlight area. Then I examined the victimized print under every angle of illumination. The results are that looking at the prints the way one is supposed to look at them - straight-on - one doesn't see any impacts. Looking at them under the most unfavourable angle of lighting (the angle where everything about the surface "sticks out"), there is a slight evidence of scruffing from the severe test, and harder to detect but nonetheless present bit of evidence from the light test. So all in all, at least for this paper and printer combination, nothing I would get fussed about.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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samueljohnchia

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Re: Epson P800 Faint Roller Mark (not pizza wheel marks)
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2016, 11:09:33 AM »

Mark, thank you for the detailed observations and taking the time to verify the scratch resistance. My experience is much the same with the Canon inks, on Platine (I too find it easily scuffed) and also for a variety of fine art matte papers, and the textured varieties seem to be more easily scuffed at the texture 'peaks'. RC papers tend to be the toughest, but I do not care to use them anymore. This is a good reality check. For most general uses, I wouldn't get too fussed over it too. After all it's just some prints in a box, to take out every now and then and show some friends. But for prints I make for my clients, or my own artwork sold to a collector, they have to be flawless in every way possible, so even minuscule hairline scratches would be considered unacceptable then. These papers need to be handled with utmost care to preserve a pristine surface.

It would be nice if Epson's printers play well with Epson's own paper at least. I hope Joseph's and Macz's issues with roller marks is an isolated one. I do like the P800.
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Rand47

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Re: Epson P800 Faint Roller Mark (not pizza wheel marks)
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2016, 05:46:36 PM »

Quote
The relevant(?) print driver settings are:

    Epson Premium Semigloss as a media type setting
    Full quality, no high speed/bi-directional in use
    Tested paper thicknesses 3-5
    Platen gap wide.
    Other settings default.

I suspect this is irrelevant to the issue you're having, but thought that I would point out that the "media type" setting for Canson's profile for Photographique has changed to  Premium Luster Paper for the P800 and P600.  In prior printers (e.g. 3880, 4880, R3000) the profiles indicated "Premium Semigloss" as the media type. 

Rand
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Joseph Kayne

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Re: Epson P800 Faint Roller Mark (not pizza wheel marks)
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2016, 08:11:37 PM »

After 3 emails explaining the issue to Epson they told me to call them. i called them and I was just told the same stuff, place Platen to WIDE and use 5 for Paer thickness.  Didn't Work. The Epson Ultra Premium Luster paper did not experience the iss but i suppose because it's a thinner paper. Too thin for my tastes.  So, I am now going to FED EX some of the sample prints with the marks, and clean Hahn Photo Rag Baryta and Ilford Gold Fibre Silk to them. Maybe they can see the issue and try the thick medium paper on their printers.  I'm very disappointed.  Let's hope something comes of it.  Just in case, what is Canons' equivalent printer to the Epson P800?.....
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson P800 Faint Roller Mark (not pizza wheel marks)
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2016, 08:45:48 PM »

Joseph, I think you'll need to send them samples on Epson thick papers. They won't respond on 3rd party papers. Been through this with them several times in the past. The Canon equivalent would be the Pro-1000, my review of which is published today on this website. Note that it has a maximum paper length of 23.4 inches in case this would be an issue for you.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Joseph Kayne

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Re: Epson P800 Faint Roller Mark (not pizza wheel marks)
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2016, 08:49:40 PM »

Joseph, I think you'll need to send them samples on Epson thick papers. They won't respond on 3rd party papers. Been through this with them several times in the past. The Canon equivalent would be the Pro-1000, my review of which is published today on this website. Note that it has a maximum paper length of 23.4 inches in case this would be an issue for you.

Thanks Mark.  The guy in the phone told me to send in the media with issues....
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