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Author Topic: BC Pura Velvet paper very magenta in color?  (Read 1296 times)

Sunshine7

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BC Pura Velvet paper very magenta in color?
« on: March 08, 2016, 03:33:47 PM »

Hi all,

Since I started my small fine art print business I have only been using just the Breathing Color range of papers. ie Pura Velvet, Pura smooth and the Lyve canvas. Mainly the Pura velvet and Lyve. Our reproductions of our own art, which has very bright colors, seemed great on these and I did not notice any 'magenta' color of the paper I used. However, after ordering some the sample packs of Canson (discovery pack) and Hahnemule papers (Matte Fine Art - textured) for a special project for a friend, the Pura Velvet paper appears very magenta in color, while the other papers in the sample pack do not have a magenta color.

I have a large stock of the Pura Velvet, special custom profiles that are great, and am now unsure if this paper is suitable enough to use for certain fine art prints because of its base color. Has anyone else noticed this? I had ordered 30 rolls of it for a special project, and still have 6 left. The Pura smooth is somewhat less magenta in color, but still a bit as far as I can see.

My question is, for projects that have a lot of paper white in them, I am now going to do a project with black line drawings, faces and figures etc. would my client be better served if I use one of the Canson papers, like BFk RIves Printmaking rag or velin museum rag, or do I just notice it because I see the samples together and it should be fine for my new client? Or do I over print the paper white with another white, and how would I achieve this? just asking for some thoughts here, not an 'this is how it absolutely is' answer since I guess this is all partially subjective. Have an Epson 9900 and a Canon ipf 8400.

Image attached wiht strip of Pura Velvet over the other matte fine art paper samples, only the Hahnemule German Etching has a color that comes close to it but is more white than magenta, all the others have a more natural color. (natural as I perceive it when compared to the Pura Velvet, so yes, some people word this differently, this is just to give an idea of what I mean to say). Cost is an issue, since the Canson paper costs more than the BC paper since I can buy the BC paper in larger quantities and get a good discount. I work with a small group of artists that are in my opinion very good, that start to get a large following but not much money yet to pay me enough for the kind of prints I would like to make for them, but at the same time I would like to represent their work in the best way possible, even if this means a higher cost for me to start with.

Lastly, has anyone compared the Pura Velvet paper color with the BC Bagasse papers? Wonder if these would work better for these projects, but i do not want to order a whole roll of each of these without having some sense of the paper color of these.

Thanks all for any comments and sharing your experience!

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hugowolf

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Re: BC Pura Velvet paper very magenta in color?
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2016, 05:24:45 PM »

I have used Pura Smooth and Velvet for a few years, but not in large quanities. I use mostly Canson Rag Photographique and BFK Rives (now know as PrintMaking Rag). I have never noticed anything remotely resembling a magneta cast: what sort of lighting are you viewing these under?

If you look at the spectral reflectance repsonse in Ernst Dinkla's Spectrum Viz, it has a very strange curve. So much so that I have to wonder if the reading wasn't somehow flawed. If I remember tomorrow, I will take a spot reading from both the BC papers. (The bagasse paper were released too recently for me to have evaluated them.)

Ernst's spot reading for the Pura Velvat of Lab 95.2 1.7 0.7 is on the red side comaperd to say BFK Rives with Lab 97.4 0.2 1.6.

If you are looking for an alternative to the Pura Velvet, then BFK Rives (PrintMaking Rag) is my favourite medium textured rag, but as you say, it is expensive. The Rives is about 50% more expensive than Canson Edition Etching, which is also a nice textured rag.

My 'go to' lower cost medium textured paper is Hahnemühle German Etching, which isn't cotton, but holds better detail because of that. Hahnemühle Museum Etching is also nice and with a noticeably heavier weight, but again quite expensive.

One of may reason for using Canson Rag Photographique, Canson BFK Rives, and Hahnemühle German Etching, is that they all come in 24" x 36" and larger sheets. Absolutely no curl to deal with.

Brian A

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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: BC Pura Velvet paper very magenta in color?
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2016, 05:14:01 AM »

I have used Pura Smooth and Velvet for a few years, but not in large quanities. I use mostly Canson Rag Photographique and BFK Rives (now know as PrintMaking Rag). I have never noticed anything remotely resembling a magneta cast: what sort of lighting are you viewing these under?

If you look at the spectral reflectance repsonse in Ernst Dinkla's Spectrum Viz, it has a very strange curve. So much so that I have to wonder if the reading wasn't somehow flawed. If I remember tomorrow, I will take a spot reading from both the BC papers. (The bagasse paper were released too recently for me to have evaluated them.)

Ernst's spot reading for the Pura Velvat of Lab 95.2 1.7 0.7 is on the red side comaperd to say BFK Rives with Lab 97.4 0.2 1.6.

Brian A

Brian, it has a lower reflectance in the yellow/green range so a slight magenta cast is not impossible, viewing light could have an influence too. I doubt it has OBA content, possibly a very low amount. The measurement has been alright. There are more papers with irregular spectral plots; Harman inkjet papers with a base that was borrowed from their analogue photo papers, the infamous Hahnemühle Baryta FB that lacks way more reflectance between the blue and red range has a lot of OBA and really shows a magenta cast.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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hugowolf

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Re: BC Pura Velvet paper very magenta in color?
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2016, 11:03:32 AM »

Hi Ernst. Your spectral readings would indeed match with what the OP (Sunshine7) is seeing, the drop in green/yellow producing a slight magenta cast. The thing is, I found data for Pura Smooth and Velvet here at home, and they show no similar drop in the green/yellow area, which matches what I see with my rolls of these papers. So it may be a difference in paper batches, mine are a few years old, and I don’t use a lot of it. Or the paper may have changed. The Lab values (average of 5 readings) I got for Pura Velvet were Lab 95.79 1.484 1.156, for example.

I will have a look when I get into work later today. I will visually compare the papers with Canson and Hahnemühle papers and also do a few spot readings. I have learnt from a recent thread on this forum that the lamp in my i1Pro 2 needs some warm up time, so I will try that too.

Brian A
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hugowolf

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Re: BC Pura Velvet paper very magenta in color?
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2016, 03:57:54 PM »

So, I agree with the OP, the Pura Velvet does have a redder bias than other cotton papers I have on hand in most cases. More noticeable under daylight than tungsten. I haven't really noticed it before, and with a side by side comparison, I don't think if bothers me at all. A characteristic rather than a flaw.

What I did find that was more bothersome was the variance between samples, especially the b* values. I took five spot measurements from three different samples: a 17" roll, a sheet in a BC swatch book, and another sheet probably cut from a different roll.

The b* values within each sample were reasonably consistent, but between samples there was much greater variance:
Average b*
Sample 1 = 1.16
Sample 2 = 0.44
Sample 3 = 2.14

So for critical work, a paper that perhaps needs a profile per batch.

Brian A
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Sunshine7

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Re: BC Pura Velvet paper very magenta in color?
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2016, 04:35:44 PM »

Thanks so much Brian and Ernst, I will ask Breathing Color about this as well and see what they say. Really appreciate your findings with this, it helps me in determining what papers to use from now on for my clients other than myself. It sounds that in case of limited edition prints I will have to start using a different paper, or keep aside paper from the same batch for any future prints of the edition.

Brian, what would you use instead of Pura Velvet? Even though the magenta cast is less than the Pura Velvet in the batch of paper I have, I may look for an alternative. From my samples I thought the Canson Arches Velin Museum rag? Have not printed in this, just comparing the samples of paper aI have.

Thanks again!
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hugowolf

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Re: BC Pura Velvet paper very magenta in color?
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2016, 06:23:32 AM »

I have never used the Museum Velin, but for no particular reason except is not available in larger sheets, usually special order, couple of weeks delivery, which means having to keep more stock on hand. BFK Rives is definately my top choice, but it is expensive.

For my own work I usually use BFK Rives, Canson Rag Photographique, Hahnemühle German Etching, or BC Elegance Velvet and very occasionally Optica One when I want a really high white point. The German Etching is a great paper, but it isn't 100% cotton, and that is a selling point. It also has a small OBA content.

I mostly print for other photographers, and what I stock in order of quanties sold:
Canson Rag Photographique 310
Hahnemühle German Etching 310
Canson Baryta Photgraphique 310
Canson Edition Etching 310
Canson Rag Photographique 210 (mostly dry mounted)
Harmon Gloss Baryta 320
BFK Rives (PrintMaking Rag) 310 (it is a hard sell because of the cost, but people love it)
Lustre and Semi-Matte 260/250
BC Pura Velvet
BC Elegance Velvet

I would also look at Innova, they have some good papers. Museo too, which also has some papers in large sheet sizes.

Brian A



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shadowblade

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Re: BC Pura Velvet paper very magenta in color?
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2016, 04:49:36 AM »

Pura Smooth and Pura Velvet have become two of my favourite papers. Not only are they OBA-free, but they play very well diluted Timeless to create a very durable surface with controllable gloss, and, if their inkjet receptive layer is similar to that of Optica One and Elegance (their OBA-containing brethren), should be extremely lightfast even compared with other papers. I've never really noticed a magenta cast to them, not that I've particularly looked for them. Is it just one sample that has the problem, or have you seen it in multiple batches?
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shadowblade

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Re: BC Pura Velvet paper very magenta in color?
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2016, 01:46:52 AM »

Take a look at the new Breathing Color Bagasse paper. I just saw it the other day - next to Pura Smooth/Velvet, it's a much brighter white, has the same coating and is OBA free. Not sure of the physical longevity of 50% sugarcane/50% cotton paper vs 100% cotton rag, but, over a 50-year lifespam, I think they'll both hold up well.
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henrikolsen

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Re: BC Pura Velvet paper very magenta in color?
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2017, 03:41:36 PM »

Since I started my small fine art print business I have only been using just the Breathing Color range of papers. ie Pura Velvet, Pura smooth and the Lyve canvas. Mainly the Pura velvet and Lyve. Our reproductions of our own art, which has very bright colors, seemed great on these and I did not notice any 'magenta' color of the paper I used. However, after ordering some the sample packs of Canson (discovery pack) and Hahnemule papers (Matte Fine Art - textured) for a special project for a friend, the Pura Velvet paper appears very magenta in color, while the other papers in the sample pack do not have a magenta color.

I have a large stock of the Pura Velvet, special custom profiles that are great, and am now unsure if this paper is suitable enough to use for certain fine art prints because of its base color. Has anyone else noticed this?

Yes, I have a very similar experience, comparing BC Pura Bagasse (and some other BC papers) with similar offerings from Hahnemühle and Canson. The BC paper does have a noticeable magenta tint to them, that the alternatives companies don't. And more so to me than white point measurements should indicate. I really like the texture of the BC Pura Bagasse, but the tint is not to my liking. But I may have to compromise here for best compatibility with BC varnish (Timeless or Glamour), as some other paper brands don't always play nice with the varnish (some get toothy, develop pin holes or other unwanted flaws, where other papers just work).
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mearussi

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Re: BC Pura Velvet paper very magenta in color?
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2017, 05:59:11 PM »

Yes, I have a very similar experience, comparing BC Pura Bagasse (and some other BC papers) with similar offerings from Hahnemühle and Canson. The BC paper does have a noticeable magenta tint to them, that the alternatives companies don't. And more so to me than white point measurements should indicate. I really like the texture of the BC Pura Bagasse, but the tint is not to my liking. But I may have to compromise here for best compatibility with BC varnish (Timeless or Glamour), as some other paper brands don't always play nice with the varnish (some get toothy, develop pin holes or other unwanted flaws, where other papers just work).

A magenta tint to the base paper usually means there's OBAs in the paper and /or emulsion. If you have a UV light you might want to check, as I've found OBAs is papers the manufacturer's literature said were OBA free (I check all paper now). For instance, BC's Lyve canvas is advertised as being OBA free, and the emulsion is, but the canvas stock glows a bright white when a UV light is put on it. Trust but verify.

Also, based on my own tests BC's Timeless is not as good as Premier Arts Eco Print Shield, even when using Lyve canvas. Timeless is a pinhole nightmare that produced nothing but frustration for me, but Eco, when applied as recommended using three very thin coats instead of one thick, one produces a perfectly smooth coating. It's more work but the results are much better.
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