Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Newbie troubleshooting questions  (Read 4081 times)

mrnikkel

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9
Newbie troubleshooting questions
« on: March 07, 2016, 12:14:45 pm »

Sorry if these are pretty basic questions. I'm fairly new to printing and I've run into two problems.

First, when printing on Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique, I'm getting colors much darker and more saturated than what I'm seeing on my monitor (and on other papers). I'm printing on an Epson P600. My monitor is color calibrated with a Datacolor Spyder. I downloaded the ICC profile from the Canson site and have the paper type set to Ultra Premium Photo Paper Luster, per the recommendation. I have Lightroom set to perceptual color conversion for printing. What am I missing here?

Second, I purchased a roll of Epson Premium Photo Paper Luster. Unfortunately I didn't realize Espson doesn't have a color profile for this paper for my printer. Are there any other sources where I might be able to find a color profile for this printer/paper combination? (I know you can make your own, but I don't have a tool for it, and it would probably just be cheaper for me to buy a different type of paper if that's my only option).

Thanks
Logged

howardm

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1984
Re: Newbie troubleshooting questions
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2016, 12:44:30 pm »

#1   Most likely cause is that you did NOT turn off color management in the printer driver.  You can't have 2 things trying to do the color mamangment.

#2  You dont say if you're on Windows or Mac but the profiles do exist *somewhere*, on the Mac, they are buried in the printer driver area.  I'd expect Windows to be similar.

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12512
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: Newbie troubleshooting questions
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2016, 12:56:29 pm »

Andrew Rodney provided an extensive tutorial on this website dealing with the question of "why are my prints too dark". Read it and apply it. The most likely cause is that you have the brightness parameter on your display set too high. Check whether the brightness is any higher than 110 cd/m2 in a dimly lit room. If it is, set it at 100~110, re-profile the display with that setting, re-examine and re-adjust your photo with softproof active (for both black point and paper white), then re-print.

As for the profile, it is virtually inconceivable that the driver for the Epson P600 does not include a profile for PLPP. It is one of Epson's most basic and pervasively used inkjet papers. It must be there. Make sure you know exactly how to set the media type you want to use in the printer driver and how to find your ICC profiles in your printing application (you don't say what application you are using for printing. If you cannot find the profile from the drop-down menu in your printing application, unpack the profile from the Epson driver (you'll need to drill down because it's usually buried) and copy it into your colour management system's profiles folder. You don't say what operating system you are using so I can't give you more specific instructions on where to go for doing that. 
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

mrnikkel

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9
Re: Newbie troubleshooting questions
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2016, 01:04:30 pm »

Andrew Rodney provided an extensive tutorial on this website dealing with the question of "why are my prints too dark". Read it and apply it. The most likely cause is that you have the brightness parameter on your display set too high. Check whether the brightness is any higher than 110 cd/m2 in a dimly lit room. If it is, set it at 100~110, re-profile the display with that setting, re-examine and re-adjust your photo with softproof active (for both black point and paper white), then re-print.
I'm not certain of my exact display brightness. Though I do have it fairly low (<50%) for this very reason. In this case the brightness doesn't concern me so much as the color saturation does. I printed a Canson sampler pack (I applied the their recommended profile an paper type for each individual paper) and colors seem more or less accurate to my eye for all papers but the Baryta.

Quote
As for the profile, it is virtually inconceivable that the driver for the Epson P600 does not include a profile for PLPP. It is one of Epson's most basic and pervasively used inkjet papers. It must be there. Make sure you know exactly how to set the media type you want to use in the printer driver and how to find your ICC profiles in your printing application (you don't say what application you are using for printing. If you cannot find the profile from the drop-down menu in your printing application, unpack the profile from the Epson driver (you'll need to drill down because it's usually buried) and copy it into your colour management system's profiles folder. You don't say what operating system you are using so I can't give you more specific instructions on where to go for doing that.
Thank you I will double check and see if it's already there (I'm printing directly form Lightrom BTW). I had assumed I needed to download the profile like I did for the Canson papers and just didn't see it on the Epson website.
Logged

mrnikkel

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9
Re: Newbie troubleshooting questions
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2016, 01:06:34 pm »

#1   Most likely cause is that you did NOT turn off color management in the printer driver.  You can't have 2 things trying to do the color mamangment.
I definitely turned off color management in the printer driver. It was the first thing I checked when I noticed how the print turned out.

Quote
#2  You dont say if you're on Windows or Mac but the profiles do exist *somewhere*, on the Mac, they are buried in the printer driver area.  I'd expect Windows to be similar.
I'm on Windows. I didn't check to see if I already had the profile though. I had assumed I would need to download them like with the Canson papers.
Logged

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12512
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: Newbie troubleshooting questions
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2016, 01:13:33 pm »

I'm not certain of my exact display brightness. Though I do have it fairly low (<50%) for this very reason. In this case the brightness doesn't concern me so much as the color saturation does. I printed a Canson sampler pack (I applied the their recommended profile an paper type for each individual paper) and colors seem more or less accurate to my eye for all papers but the Baryta.
Thank you I will double check and see if it's already there (I'm printing directly form Lightrom BTW). I had assumed I needed to download the profile like I did for the Canson papers and just didn't see it on the Epson website.

Best to find out exactly what the brightness of the display is. The profiling software should tell you this if it is any good. Brightness needs to concern you because it affects the perception of colour saturation, even though saturation and brightness are two very different things. If anything, Canson Baryta Photographique is an excellent medium for bringing out all the saturation you need - I've tested it and used it, so what's happening is pilot error - nothing to do with the paper. Make sure you have the correction reference medium for this paper set in the Epson driver. I believe it should be either Epson Semi-Gloss or Premium Luster. If you do not have the correct Epson paper keyed into the Printer Media Type setting in the Epson driver, even if you have selected the correct Canson profile for this paper you will not get correct prints, because the paper setting in the driver would be mismatched with the setting used to make the profile and the printer will be laying down the wrong amount of ink.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

howardm

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1984
Re: Newbie troubleshooting questions
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2016, 01:47:45 pm »

so you're saying that all of the other papers in the sample pack were good except for the baryta?

That *might* lead one to believe the Canson profile itself is defective.  If you have another small sheet, you could try to set the profile to Prem. Lustre and see.  That takes the Canson profile out of the equation.  Hard to imagine that if it was defective it'd be in the wild for so long after introduction.

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12512
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: Newbie troubleshooting questions
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2016, 02:41:11 pm »

so you're saying that all of the other papers in the sample pack were good except for the baryta?

That *might* lead one to believe the Canson profile itself is defective.  If you have another small sheet, you could try to set the profile to Prem. Lustre and see.  That takes the Canson profile out of the equation.  Hard to imagine that if it was defective it'd be in the wild for so long after introduction.

The Canson profile is most unlikely to be the cause of the problem.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

mrnikkel

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9
Re: Newbie troubleshooting questions
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2016, 03:05:11 pm »

The Canson profile is most unlikely to be the cause of the problem.
It is, as you said, almost certainly pilot error. I just need to figure out where it's occuring. I'll take a look at my monitor brightness tonight.
Logged

Tony Jay

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2965
Re: Newbie troubleshooting questions
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2016, 06:11:09 pm »

The Canson profile is most unlikely to be the cause of the problem.
I would second this.
The profile for Canson Baryta Photographique provided by Canson is actually pretty good from my experience over several years.

Tony Jay
Logged

howardm

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1984
Re: Newbie troubleshooting questions
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2016, 07:28:50 pm »

I agree but I did put the word 'might' in quotes to indicate it was unlikely.

Obviously I failed in that.  The OP seemed to indicate that baryta was the only one causing issue
(from the entire sample pack?).  That pretty much discounts the monitor too bright idea and points
back to simple pilot error during that print or something more insidious.  Occam's Razor and all that.

On the other side of the coin, I have a factory Ilford profile that su*ks and as Andrew has pointed out, Epson
also is not blameless in the 'crappy profile' game.

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12512
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: Newbie troubleshooting questions
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2016, 07:55:36 pm »

Howard, these days the major OEM profiles tend to be pretty good, and I've tested quite a few of them - including Epson's, Ilford's, Canon's and Canson's. There is a pilot error somewhere, and I suspect it may be whether the correct media type selection has been made in the printer driver.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

hugowolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1001
Re: Newbie troubleshooting questions
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2016, 10:17:24 pm »

Whether ‘a few of them’ or 'over several years' really shows nothing about a new profile for a new printer. The Canson profile for Rag Photographique 210 (either for the 3880 or 9890, I can’t remember which) is dreadful. Every other of the Canson profiles for the six papers I use on a regular basis were at least ok, before I switched to making my own. But we are talking about hundreds of profiles for tens of printers for three manufacturers; the chance of all of the in-house profiles being good is low.

That it hasn't drawn any other complaints yet for such an often used paper is perhaps more troublesome. But the OP did mention it was the only one of the samples that printed so. That really doesn’t point to a workflow problem. It could, however, be that the media setting suggested by Canson is wrong. Typos happen.

Brian A
Logged

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12512
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: Newbie troubleshooting questions
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2016, 07:49:34 am »

Brian and Howard, I've seen the Canson BP profile being used in a P600 when the printer was first issued and it seemed fine. I have used the Canson BP profile in the new Canon ImagePROGRAF Pro-1000 where I've observed and measured it's overall performance to be very good. While one shouldn't overly generalize, it has been my experience that when OEM profiles aren't delivering good results, more often than not the telltale signs are obviously shifted colours along with what appears to be moderate over or under saturation relative to the softproof. These are the reasons why I didn't think in this case a poor profile is the most likely cause. Furthermore, whenever one is told that the prints are coming out too dark, whether it is from one profile or another, it is good protocol to verify that the monitor is not too bright. The effect this error can produce may vary from one kind of soft-proof condition to another, so while I would agree perhaps not necessarily the most likely cause again in this particular case, there is every reason to make sure the monitor brightness is properly calibrated for the specific conditions of the printing environment; in this way it is for sure not a contributory factor to the problem.

Another point that may be useful to the OP: to test whether it is indeed the profile regardless of all I said just above, download from the Ilford website and install Ilford's profile for its Gold Fibre Silk paper used in a Canon P600. I have found that these two papers are so similar, the profiles and the papers are for most intents and purposes interchangeable. If the Ilford profile gives you much better prints than the Canson profile, all else the same, then we would have good reason to believe there is an issue with the Canson profile.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

hugowolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1001
Re: Newbie troubleshooting questions
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2016, 11:47:48 am »

Another point that may be useful to the OP: to test whether it is indeed the profile regardless of all I said just above, download from the Ilford website and install Ilford's profile for its Gold Fibre Silk paper used in a Canon P600. I have found that these two papers are so similar, the profiles and the papers are for most intents and purposes interchangeable. If the Ilford profile gives you much better prints than the Canson profile, all else the same, then we would have good reason to believe there is an issue with the Canson profile.

It would have been a good test (and still may be), except for the higher OBA content of the new GFS. Better matches for a profile comparison test for Canson Baryta would be:

Innova FibaPrint Baryta 310 IFA 69
http://www.innovaart.com/icc-profiles-1/

and Bonjet Atelier Fibre 310
http://ftp.bon-image.com/Profile/Epson-Printer/SCP600/BonJet/FineArt/Atelier-Fibre/

I haven't used neither of these profiles, so I cannot vouch for their accuracy.

Brian A

 
Logged

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12512
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: Newbie troubleshooting questions
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2016, 12:50:20 pm »

Brian,

Where is the evidence of higher OBA content in the new GFS? (And even if there is, how significant?)  I was given to understand it's the same paper as it was, under new ownership arrangements. In any event, it would still make a good sanity test for the OP to try it.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

hugowolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1001
Re: Newbie troubleshooting questions
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2016, 06:12:54 pm »

We have discussed this before Mark, on this very same site. The evidence is in spot readings from old stock (pre-bankruptcy) and new stock. If you don't use a spectrophotometer, Ernst Dinkla's Spectrum Viz has Lab readings and spectral response curves from both. The newer paper has a higher white point and is more peaked around the 440 mn mark, which is what you would expect of an elevated OBA count.

The curves are very similarly shaped. A profile comparison would be ok. But there are papers closer to Canson Baryta than the new GFS.

Brian A
Logged

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12512
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: Newbie troubleshooting questions
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2016, 07:14:40 pm »

Yes, now that I recall, we have. But I'm not so sure the difference between the old paper and the new one defeats the purpose of this exercise. And yes, in fact he could do the same test with just about ahy of the profiles for the higher quality Baryta papers because they are all so similar - if they don't produce overly dark prints it will have served the purpose.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."
Pages: [1]   Go Up