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Author Topic: Gloss paper, pigment inks and post-printing sprays  (Read 6362 times)

GrahamBy

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Gloss paper, pigment inks and post-printing sprays
« on: March 04, 2016, 11:08:47 am »

Currently I use a Canon pro-100 dye printer, and I'm particularly fond of the prints it produces on gloss paper (typically Lumière Prestige Gloss, but other RC gloss papers appear almost interchangeable). The results are good in both B&W (about 90% of my prints) or colour. So far so good.

However the idea is rattling around my head that an A2 (17") printer could be a nice thing to have... and all the candidates use pigment ink. Traditionally it seems that the combination of gloss paper and pigment causes problems with bronzing and gloss differential, and some pigment printers (Epson SC P400, Canon pro-1000) include a clear ink, apparently to address this problem. Epson call it a gloss-optimiser, while Canon call theirs a "chroma-optimiser" (they also refer to the feed tray on the top of the printer as the "rear tray" as opposed to the tray at the rear, which they call the "manual feed tray"... so I don't take their names very seriously). Wider format printers like the IPF-x400 series seem not to provide any clear coat, whereas the HP Z3100/3200 do... I've found a comment here or there saying that bronzing is no longer an issue with the latest generation inks.

Reviews of the Canon pro-1 and Epson P800 and P600 have very little to say about performance on gloss paper: there are usually a few comments about an RC lustre before moving on to the serious issue of barytas and matt papers, however Mark McCormick-Goodhart commented in another thread that he uses his SC P400 to apply clear-coat to some of his SC600 images, rather than manually spraying them.

So, does one need to spray or otherwise clear-coat pigment prints made on gloss paper? Is the situation different for B&W vs colour, or between Epson and Canon?
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Geraldo Garcia

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Re: Gloss paper, pigment inks and post-printing sprays
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2016, 11:48:28 am »

(...) Wider format printers like the IPF-x400 series seem not to provide any clear coat, whereas the HP Z3100/3200 do... I've found a comment here or there saying that bronzing is no longer an issue with the latest generation inks.(...)
(...)So, does one need to spray or otherwise clear-coat pigment prints made on gloss paper? Is the situation different for B&W vs colour, or between Epson and Canon?

Now Canon includes the chroma optimizer in the new line of large format printers: http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/printers/canon_pro2000-4000.html
They use the same inkset of the Pro-1000.

About the current IPF-x400 and epson's x900, the bronzing is far less a problem than it used to be on previous printers, but a spray can always improve it a bit. The most annoying issue to me is not the bronzing, but the gloss differential when using satin/pearl-like papers. That is usually what makes me look for my spray cans.
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GrahamBy

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Re: Gloss paper, pigment inks and post-printing sprays
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2016, 11:59:37 am »

Now Canon includes the chroma optimizer in the new line of large format printers: http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/printers/canon_pro2000-4000.html
They use the same inkset of the Pro-1000.

Saw that! Keith posted while I was typing...

Quote
The most annoying issue to me is not the bronzing, but the gloss differential when using satin/pearl-like papers.

Sor satin/pearl is more of a problem than gloss?
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Geraldo Garcia

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Re: Gloss paper, pigment inks and post-printing sprays
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2016, 12:09:04 pm »

Sor satin/pearl is more of a problem than gloss?

Regarding gloss differential they are fore sure. The problem is more noticeable when the paper is less glossy than the inks, so the white areas that get no ink look "matte" while the printed areas look glossy. When the paper is glossy you may notice some "slightly less glossy" printed areas, but it is far less noticeable.
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rick_k

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Re: Gloss paper, pigment inks and post-printing sprays
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2016, 06:57:58 pm »

I haven't tried a high gloss paper yet but in my experience a B&W on baryta (tried Canson and Moab) the high key areas almost become completely invisible at certain angles to light. I ended up going with a matte paper to avoid it.

Rick
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NeroMetalliko

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Re: Gloss paper, pigment inks and post-printing sprays
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2016, 09:55:25 am »

Hello,

just to add my humble 2 cents on the "spray" topic.

I still use Epson K3VM inks currently and, based on my experience, 3 hands of Hahnemühle Protective Spray on HM Photo Rag Baryta (or Pearl) allows you to get a more resistant inked surface, with better UV protection and near zero gloss differential.
Using it on the "old" Ilford GFS or Canson Baryta the gloss differential was way lowered even if maybe not so perfectly zeroed. With these papers it could be recommended to use 4 hands for better results.

I have still to try it on the recent HM Photo Silk Baryta or the "new" Ilford GFS (which are very similar papers imho).
I usually don't like to use it use on matte papers because I noticed a slight change in the overall glossiness and less convincing blacks.

However, this was with the old spray, now I have bought 2 new bottles and the new packaging labels are stating different components inside the spray, so they have changed it and probably it is not more the same I have used in the past: I will try it in the next days and report back if you are interested.

That said, I need to highlight that I don't like to use the spray because it smells very nasty. For this reason I use it in a open air place and the overall process is not so issue free: there is always the possibility of something going wrong due to human errors, non uniformity glossiness or small particles trapped on the print after the finished task and so on...
In addition if you need to bend or cut the sprayed print, the "stiffness" of the spray layer could give you some additional issues.

Nonetheless in the last years, I have used it on some Ilford GFS and HM Photo Rag Baryta color prints finished with a frame and passepartout but without glass. I hate the glass: it destroys the subtle beauty of a print, and using the spray is the better workaround I have found so far to provide some mechanical and UV protection to my prints, and lowering the gloss differential.
So at the end of the story if I need to gift/sell/exhibit something printed on Baryta type surfaces I will spray it for sure because, even if not so straightforward and nice to do as workflow, the difference is definitely noticeable (for the better) in the finished print.

From what I have seen the 4 hand HM spray results are still overall better than the prints made out with other inksets provided with the Chroma Optimizer channel.

For high volumes and more consistent results a really die-hard solution could be to convert an old printer specifically to the gloss finishing task, using something like the Jon Cone Gloss Overprint
http://shop.inkjetmall.com/Piezography-Gloss-Overprint-110ml.html
but for me this is a little bit overkill and I have never tried it.

Ciao,
Andrea :)



« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 11:24:26 am by NeroMetalliko »
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MHMG

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Re: Gloss paper, pigment inks and post-printing sprays
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2016, 10:59:11 am »


So, does one need to spray or otherwise clear-coat pigment prints made on gloss paper? Is the situation different for B&W vs colour, or between Epson and Canon?

I think the answer depends a great deal on how concerned you are with both the aesthetics and longevity of the finished print. I dislike  gloss differential and bronzing, and I want maximum longevity such that I routinely spray coat my finished glossy/luster prints.  However, I know many well respected printmakers who are not concerned about those issues any more.  They feel the latest pigmented ink sets impart enough longevity on all media which is sadly not true. The print permanence battleground has shifted more to the media properties as the inks have improved.  They also think gloss differential and bronzing are not easily noticed any more, especially when the print is displayed behind glass or acrylic. Hence, they feel both issues are well under control.  I disagree, and I would cite Canon's decision to add a clear coat channel to it's new WF printers as evidence that there's still plenty of room for improvement.

The use of coatings, whether sprayed, brushed, or laminated, have traditionally served two distinct purposes. They can be decorative or protective, and ideally (but not always) they impart both properties simultaneously.  With respect to decorative properties, applying a top coating on some media can improve gloss, increase color saturation and tonal depth in the shadows. On other media, an additional coating may be applied in such a way that it is all but invisible, ie. neither improving nor degrading the initial image colors and tones, surface texture, etc, yet still imparting increased light fade, abrasion, and/or gas fade resistance. Yet with other inks and media there are serious compatibility issues (e.g., spray coatings and dye-based inks are essentially incompatible for initial image quality reasons even though lightfastness and gas fade resistance is increased).  Much of the outcome depends on the interaction between the coating, the ink, and the media. Hence, much empirical testing is often involved to come up with coatings, media, and application methods that play nicely together and are convenient to use.

The printer manufacturers' attempts to improve gloss differential and bronzing via use of a clearcoat ink is very promising and delivers real improvements, but is still a bit of a work in progress, IMHO. It's important to note that the GO and CO technologies implemented by HP, Epson, and Canon, are all tuned for optimal coverage with RC media. They do very well with RC media, less well when applied on third party non RC glossy media, the so-called "baryta" papers.  Those media in particular really suck up that clear ink so a thicker application than the printer typically lays down in one pass is warranted. However, the print maker typically has little or no control over the clear ink application other than what part of the print it will be applied, and feeding a print into the printer for a second pass is not practical for wide format machines although it's easy to do on a desktop printer.

Epson's GLOP, IMHO, is best in class, and the volume applied by the little SureColor P400 printer comes very close to eliminating all traces of gloss differential and bronzing on many glossy media, plus the coating is thick enough to be pretty effective on those third party Baryta papers as well.  Canon's Chroma optimizer (CO), on the other hand, is aptly named because it is not nearly as effective in eliminating the differential gloss, but does greatly reduce bronzing and thus impart some "chroma optimization".  If you set the Epson P400's driver settings to ensure full GO coverage all the way into the media margins, you can rub your thumb over the finished print margin area on a glossy microporous media and really feel a more slippery, fully sealed surface. It's great. With the Canon Pro-1, some change in surface friction can be felt, but the microporous ink receptor layer does not seem nearly as well sealed, IMHO. It is not as thick or glossy a clear coat compared to Epson's GO ink, and as such it is not quite as effective as Epson's GLOP :)  Based on my personal experience with the Canon Pro-1, I therefore don't know how useful the CO channel is going to be for me in the new Canon wide format printers unless these new WF machines give greater control on the amount of CO that can be applied.  I suspect I will still have to resort to additional spray coating applications in order to finish my non RC glossy/luster prints the way I like them.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 11:08:30 am by MHMG »
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Herbc

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Re: Gloss paper, pigment inks and post-printing sprays
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2016, 11:04:41 am »

ok, I was doing fine until 3 Hand and 4 Hand.  WTH does 'hand' mean? 8)
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GrahamBy

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Re: Gloss paper, pigment inks and post-printing sprays
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2016, 11:28:02 am »

ok, I was doing fine until 3 Hand and 4 Hand.  WTH does 'hand' mean? 8)

I'm guessing it's a translation effect :) In English we say "coat", in French it is "couche", which means layer but could be accidentally translated as "diaper", "birth" or "to have sex with" according to context  ;D

Alora Andrea, come se dici questo in italiano ? Fa tre mani ??
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NeroMetalliko

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Re: Gloss paper, pigment inks and post-printing sprays
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2016, 11:29:00 am »

ok, I was doing fine until 3 Hand and 4 Hand.  WTH does 'hand' mean? 8)

Hello,
sorry for my bad English, it is not my mother language...

With "hand" I mean a layer of spray. :)

A good process require you to spray the print not only one time but more times, usually 3 or 4, waiting at least 15 min. between one spray "action" and the other and usually rotating the print 90 degrees each time in order to get a better final uniformity.

I hope that now it could be more clear...

Thanks for pointing out it.

Ciao.

Andrea :)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 11:32:41 am by NeroMetalliko »
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NeroMetalliko

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Re: Gloss paper, pigment inks and post-printing sprays
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2016, 11:31:35 am »

Alora Andrea, come se dici questo in italiano ? Fa tre mani ??

si, in Italiano si direbbe "dare 3 mani" :)

Ciao :)
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GrahamBy

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Re: Gloss paper, pigment inks and post-printing sprays
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2016, 12:47:00 pm »

Epson's GLOP, IMHO, is best in class, and the volume applied by the little SureColor P400 printer comes very close to eliminating all traces of gloss differential and bronzing on many glossy media, plus the coating is thick enough to be pretty effective on those third party Baryta papers as well. 

It's a pity then that their current print-head doesn't have enough independent channels to allow its use in the P800 & P600  :(
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MHMG

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Re: Gloss paper, pigment inks and post-printing sprays
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2016, 01:20:52 pm »

It's a pity then that their current print-head doesn't have enough independent channels to allow its use in the P800 & P600  :(

agreed...and I wonder if GO rather than the 4th level of gray in the new P10000/20000 printers wouldn't have resulted in a better overall choice for the majority of users ;D.  I would guess Epson management did some focus group studies on that one and is confident with its decision, but personally, I would simply take an older Epson printer model like a 9880 and simply dedicate it to B&W when I need the very highest quality B&W prints.  I also figure the chances of Epson helping owners reconfigure an older machine with the new superior yellow ink is essentially zero.  That in turns suggests a lot of the older models will be lying around underutilized as more and more studios step up to the newer line of printers and promote the superior print longevity with their customers.  This is, after all, a fairly saturated market with most potential buyers for these new printers probably already owning an older printer, no?   For these reasons, my vote would have been for the GO ink channel instead of the extra gray ink channel :)
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GrahamBy

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Re: Gloss paper, pigment inks and post-printing sprays
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2016, 02:23:37 pm »

I would simply take an older Epson printer model like a 9880 and simply dedicate it to B&W when I need the very highest quality B&W prints.

Which raises another bunch of interesting questions that would probably require another thread...   ;D
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Paul Roark

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Re: Gloss paper, pigment inks and post-printing sprays
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2016, 03:51:01 pm »

BTW, we can do top notch dye printing with any size printer.  See, for example,
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4000-Noritsu-2K.pdf

But, don't think these dye prints, as beautiful as they may be, are in the same league as a B&W carbon pigment print.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
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dgillilan

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Re: Gloss paper, pigment inks and post-printing sprays
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2016, 06:05:35 pm »

Hello Grahamby, I do use Hahnemuhle spray on my matte prints always, but on my gloss, usually not. However, on the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl(technically gloss) I do spray them. I usually use one coat. But on a large print, 24x36, I tend to use 2 coats. I always spray my matte prints.  The printers I use are a Canon ipf 6400 and the Canon Pro-1 and the Epson R3800(matte only).  I find that the Chroma optimizer on the Canon Pro-1 is useful and I am happy with it(like the gloss optimizer in my former Epson R1800 printers).  To be honest, my Epson still yields the best matte prints for me and the canon ipf the best gloss ones.

Also, I see where Andrea pointed out that he has some newer cans of the Hahn. spray and I would be very interested in how happy he is with the new product and any further details on that. I will be buying more Hahn. spray soon. My can will run out and my substitute product (I bought when Hahn. was unavailable from my  supplier) which is Moab Desert Varnish, was also good and I was happy with the results but I truly prefer the Hahn. product. I use a lot of Hahn. papers but also Innova and Crane Museo matte papers.

Thank you for the interesting post, and thanks for any further info. from members on the "improved Hahn. spray".
Debra
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GrahamBy

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Re: Gloss paper, pigment inks and post-printing sprays
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2016, 07:45:28 am »

...and of course, nice as it would be to have the printer apply the clear coat, the Hahne spray costs 5c/ml, clear ink about 15 times more...
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MHMG

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Re: Gloss paper, pigment inks and post-printing sprays
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2016, 08:51:48 am »

...and of course, nice as it would be to have the printer apply the clear coat, the Hahne spray costs 5c/ml, clear ink about 15 times more...

Except that the Hahne spray has such very low viscosity, so it takes two to three passes to build up a proper coating, and with all the overspray, the yield per $15 can is only between 15-30 letter size prints depending on how light a final coat you are willing to live with. So, all and all, a printer performing an aqueous based clearcoat step is highly competitive on price not to mention one's time and environmental safety.  That said, spray finishes do give you full control over the final coating thickness and appearance. :)
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asch

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Re: Gloss paper, pigment inks and post-printing sprays
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2016, 09:44:02 am »

May be a stupid question but… is there anyone who has ever tried to fill a cartridge with Print Shield or Hahnemuhle sprays, to apply a gloss overcoat like Piezography GO ?
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Ken Doo

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Re: Gloss paper, pigment inks and post-printing sprays
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2016, 10:30:42 am »

May be a stupid question but… is there anyone who has ever tried to fill a cartridge with Print Shield or Hahnemuhle sprays, to apply a gloss overcoat like Piezography GO ?

My guess is that to do so would place one on the cutting edge of Epson clogging issues  ;D-----not in a good way!

I occasionally use the GO overcoating process from my 9890 K7 piezography printer on color images from my 9900, which works very well. But the GO is very different from the solvent sprays used in Print Shield, which I also use, but never together with the K7 GO process.  Btw, Print Shield gives better UV protection than the GO; GO does provide UV protection but minimally, as the K7 GO process was designed to "complete the print" and make an outstanding image.

ken
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