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Author Topic: Calibrate LCD to 6500 or native white point?  (Read 14307 times)

Nill Toulme

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Calibrate LCD to 6500 or native white point?
« on: May 10, 2006, 09:46:56 PM »

I've heard it both ways.  Which is better (and why)?

I'm using an NEC 2090uxi and Eye One Display 2.

Thanks,

Nill
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Gandalf

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Calibrate LCD to 6500 or native white point?
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2006, 10:25:49 PM »

I think common wisdom is native, but I go with 6500 because I want all my monitors, regardless of type or brand, to match.
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digitaldog

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Calibrate LCD to 6500 or native white point?
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2006, 10:39:24 PM »

Native White Point is generally better for LCDs because you're not adjusting the white point via the graphic card but rather using Photoshop's Display Using Monitor Compensation architecture which does this with higher bit precision. Another "issue" is 6500K is kind of an ambiguous value (there are many colors that correlate to this value).
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Andrew Rodney
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Nill Toulme

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Calibrate LCD to 6500 or native white point?
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2006, 10:54:48 PM »

Quote
Native White Point is generally better for LCDs because you're not adjusting the white point via the graphic card but rather using Photoshop's Display Using Monitor Compensation architecture which does this with higher bit precision. Another "issue" is 6500K is kind of an ambiguous value (there are many colors that correlate to this value).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=65040\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Andrew.  Does this remain true using other color managed apps?  I do most of my color work in the RAW conversion with C1.

Gandalf — that makes sense, but I'm only doing color work on the one monitor so I don't have the monitor-matching issue to worry about.

Nill
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digitaldog

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Calibrate LCD to 6500 or native white point?
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2006, 11:02:34 PM »

Quote
Thanks Andrew.  Does this remain true using other color managed apps?  I do most of my color work in the RAW conversion with C1.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=65041\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It should.
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Andrew Rodney
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Nill Toulme

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Calibrate LCD to 6500 or native white point?
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2006, 11:11:54 PM »

OK thanks again.

Nill
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Serge Cashman

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Calibrate LCD to 6500 or native white point?
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2006, 11:25:58 PM »

What's the point of buying an LCD with internal 12 bit LUTs? Isn't it to be able to losslesly calibrate to any target you choose? Am I missing something?

NEC 2090uxi has 12 bit internal LUTs.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2006, 11:34:02 PM by Serge Cashman »
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Stephen Best

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Calibrate LCD to 6500 or native white point?
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2006, 12:17:19 AM »

Quote
What's the point of buying an LCD with internal 12 bit LUTs?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=65047\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The internal LUT is used for gamma adjustment and neutrality. I'm sure the backlight has a specific whitepoint, but don't know whether the controls on the NEC allow you to bypass the LUT to utilize it. Maybe it doesn't matter.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2006, 12:21:17 AM by Stephen Best »
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Serge Cashman

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Calibrate LCD to 6500 or native white point?
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2006, 01:02:57 AM »

Well how are they used for gamma adjustments when there is no DDC connection? And "neutrality" IS the white point. It really looks like in this particular case having a 12 bit LUT monitor has no benefits whatsoever. It looks like everything is done through the videocard LUTs...  Unless the onscreen controls affect the internal LUTs... (?) Sounds unlikely...

If the adjustments are done through the videocard then Native gamma and Native whitepoint are your best bet of course - meaning just go ahead and measure the factory default output. Otherwise visualise applying a Curve to an 8 bit PS file and then looking at the Levels histogram - you'll see gaps, values that are no longer there. That's what happens when you adjust gamma and white point through videocard LUT.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2006, 01:09:49 AM by Serge Cashman »
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Stephen Best

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Calibrate LCD to 6500 or native white point?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2006, 01:19:21 AM »

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Well how are they used for gamma adjustments when there is no DDC connection?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The manual for the 2090 is here (warning 7MB file):

[a href=\"http://www.nec-display-solutions.com/coremedia/download/164524/2090-UsersGuide-english.pdf]http://www.nec-display-solutions.com/corem...ide-english.pdf[/url]

According to this you can adjust both the whitepoint and gamma (from 0.5 to 4.0). It's under Advanced menu, tags 5 & 6.

The 2090 also supports SpectraView II for DDC hardware calibration.
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Serge Cashman

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Calibrate LCD to 6500 or native white point?
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2006, 01:35:34 AM »

Thanks. It appears that to take advantage of DDC  you need to use this setting for Color Control:

"PROGRAMMABLE: The colour tone that was set up with the downloaded application software is reflected."

Which probably means the Spectraview software.

I've seen on another forum a post claiming that only Spectraview models (the manual you linked to is for a Spectraview model) have this feature and it will not work on a non-Spectraview monitor.

It still does not mean RGB sliders don't affect internal LUTs though... Or perhaps the Naviset software bypasses the videocard LUTs... But you definitely have to be able to get more value out of this monitor than just calibrating to all Native...
« Last Edit: May 11, 2006, 01:42:00 AM by Serge Cashman »
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Stephen Best

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Calibrate LCD to 6500 or native white point?
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2006, 01:42:18 AM »

Quote
I've seen on another forum a post claiming that only Spectraview models (the manual you linked to is for a Spectraview model) have this feature and it will not work on a non-Spectraview monitor.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=65057\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The manual is for both. I assume the difference is that the SpectraView model comes bundled with the software.
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Serge Cashman

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Calibrate LCD to 6500 or native white point?
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2006, 02:00:33 AM »

This is the post I was referring to:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp...essage=18371820

I just feel that with all the technology incorporated in this monitor you gotta be able to have more flexibility than Native. But than again maybe not... They say it's firmware...

[edit] If it's firmware there has be some workaround... Somehow it has to work with DDC.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2006, 02:18:15 AM by Serge Cashman »
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Stephen Best

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Calibrate LCD to 6500 or native white point?
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2006, 02:16:16 AM »

Quote
This is the post I was referring to:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp...essage=18371820
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=65059\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The link didn't work for me, but I found the message anyway:

"The SpectraView Profiler software can basically be used with the standard
MultiSync LCD2090UXi, however this will be software calibration (grafic
board side) only.
For hardware calibration you need to use the SpectraView 2090.
This is one of the differences of these two models. Beside this the
SpectraView models have i.e. more narrow specifications for uniformity and
pixel failures."

It looks like NEC wants to retain control over the hardware calibration and keep the profits in-house. Also maybe why support for NEC models was pulled from basICColor's Display. Sigh. My understanding is that the Custom functions are still supported by the base model ... maybe Nill can confirm this.
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Serge Cashman

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Calibrate LCD to 6500 or native white point?
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2006, 02:22:06 AM »

Sorry. Yes, this is the post. Sigh...
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Nill Toulme

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Calibrate LCD to 6500 or native white point?
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2006, 08:10:17 AM »

Thanks all.  The Spectraview question will require some more digging.  I don't think the latest version with 90-series support is out yet.  It was due out this month.  I have a question in to tech support about it.

FWIW, the press release for the 90-series says:

The new “i” series NEC Professional 90-Series features include:

• Standard four-year limited warranty
• SpectraViewII, which delivers an advanced and easy-to-use calibration and profiling solution for color-critical applications


Nill
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digitaldog

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Calibrate LCD to 6500 or native white point?
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2006, 08:29:04 AM »

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And "neutrality" IS the white point.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not really, it's the color of white at the target luminance.

As for bits, read this from Karl Lang:

[a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=9613&hl=]http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....wtopic=9613&hl=[/url]
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Andrew Rodney
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Serge Cashman

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Calibrate LCD to 6500 or native white point?
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2006, 06:02:53 PM »

Quote
Not really, it's the color of white at the target luminance.

Yes, but from what I understand it determines what  "neutral" is.
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digitaldog

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Calibrate LCD to 6500 or native white point?
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2006, 07:01:04 PM »

Quote
Yes, but from what I understand it determines what  "neutral" is.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=65133\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Neutral can run anywhere from black to white...
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Andrew Rodney
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Serge Cashman

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Calibrate LCD to 6500 or native white point?
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2006, 08:10:51 PM »

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Neutral can run anywhere from black to white...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=65142\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I admit I don't understand this statement.
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