Shifting MF lenses on Sony A7r

[favalim]

What are your impression shifting MF lenses (whatever the system is) on Sony A7r?
I've seen this link on Capture Integration and I've been very disappointed by the Hasselblad 60mm shifted 15mm:
https://captureintegration.com/first-look-cambo-actus/

Thanks
Marco

[Paul2660]

For many years, I used various Mamiya, then Pentax MF 645 lenses on my Canon 1ds MKII and then 5D MKII, with the Zork adapter.  Never had any issues with softness or smearing.  The Zork allowed 18mm of shift, and I used the 35mm, 45mm, 90mm, and 150mm. 

Not sure if they are making anything for the Sony, mirrorless systems.  All the adapters I used were designed for mirror box style cameras. 

Paul C

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Shot three Hasselbald V lenses with shifts on the A7rII today.

Short answer is pretty good.

Some more detail:

Distagon 40/4 quite soft in shifted edges.

Planar 100/3.5 good all over the field

Distagon 60/3.5 decently sharp over the field, loss of sharpness at the edges.

Around 12 mm of shift possible without shading with my adapter (HCam Master TSII) before shading.

Some samples here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr//Articles/Shoots/MFLens_On_A7rII/

Shift was +/- 15 mm in all cases.

BTW, my tests are limited to +/- 15 mm and the adapter shades around 12mm. Chris Barret found he can shift around 20 mm with his Hasselblad lenses on the A7r.

I don't think color cast is an issue with SLR lenses. For wide angle, Canon 24/3.5 TSE LII and 17/4 TSE offer a lot of shift. Canon 11-24/4 is said to be very good.

I own the Canon 24/3.5 TSE LII but I wouldn't say I am impressed by my sample, still it can deliver the goods. I also have a Canon 16-35/4 and it is really impressive on the A7rII and allows for significant shift at 20 mm and above.

Best regards
Erik

What are your impression shifting MF lenses (whatever the system is) on Sony A7r?
I've seen this link on Capture Integration and I've been very disappointed by the Hasselblad 60mm shifted 15mm:
https://captureintegration.com/first-look-cambo-actus/

Thanks
Marco

[favalim]

Thanks Erik, I thought Hasselblad lenses were better ... Coming from HR lenses on view camera with Credo 60 it's difficult to accept it.
I was considering to pass to A7r (wich I already own) with MF lenses on Arca F or Cambo Actus with Hasselblad lenses as Chris Barrett did but if this is the result ... I can't.
Could be you were using an old 40 Distagon non CF?
I'm missing something: how is it possible to shift a 16-35 Zoom on a 35mm format, how much do you shift?
Thanks

Hi,

Shot three Hasselbald V lenses with shifts on the A7rII today.

Short answer is pretty good.

Some more detail:

Distagon 40/4 quite soft in shifted edges.

Planar 100/3.5 good all over the field

Distagon 60/3.5 decently sharp over the field, loss of sharpness at the edges.

Around 12 mm of shift possible without shading with my adapter (HCam Master TSII) before shading.

Some samples here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr//Articles/Shoots/MFLens_On_A7rII/

Shift was +/- 15 mm in all cases.

BTW, my tests are limited to +/- 15 mm and the adapter shades around 12mm. Chris Barret found he can shift around 20 mm with his Hasselblad lenses on the A7r.

I don't think color cast is an issue with SLR lenses. For wide angle, Canon 24/3.5 TSE LII and 17/4 TSE offer a lot of shift. Canon 11-24/4 is said to be very good.

I own the Canon 24/3.5 TSE LII but I wouldn't say I am impressed by my sample, still it can deliver the goods. I also have a Canon 16-35/4 and it is really impressive on the A7rII and allows for significant shift at 20 mm and above.

Best regards
Erik

[Chris Barrett]

I find the late (CFi/e) lenses to be quite good on the Sonys.  Do keep in mind that these lenses are designed for optimal performance within a 60mm image circle.  So...  (60 - 36)/2 does limit your ideal movements to about 12mm.  I've pushed them further and have had decent luck so far (of course this varies by lens).  One of the first things I advise others to do is to learn the limitations of your tools and decide how they best interface with your workflow.  I'd love to test some Rodie HR's against comparable 'Blad glass, but I don't own any of the Rodenstocks.

The nitty gritty for me, though, is working on the wide end for interiors, where I'm most often at 17, 24 & 35mm focal lengths.  There is nothing of a comparable field of view available in medium format that gives as much movements (proportionally).

-CB

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

The Distagon 40/4 CF. There is a later version called 40/CFx IF. That one is much better. I wouldn't expect large variations between CF variants.

I also tested my Pentax 67 45/4, right now I feel that one is the lens to use.

The Distagon works well with my P45+ on Hasselblad, I will post some more images later.

Best regards
Erik

Thanks Erik, I thought Hasselblad lenses were better ... Coming from HR lenses on view camera with Credo 60 it's difficult to accept it.
I was considering to pass to A7r (wich I already own) with MF lenses on Arca F or Cambo Actus with Hasselblad lenses as Chris Barrett did but if this is the result ... I can't.
Could be you were using an old 40 Distagon non CF?
I'm missing something: how is it possible to shift a 16-35 Zoom on a 35mm format, how much do you shift?
Thanks

[Alan Klein]

Clyde Butcher is using the A7R with the cambi actus with medium format lenses with stitching.

[yashima]

I find the late (CFi/e) lenses to be quite good on the Sonys.  Do keep in mind that these lenses are designed for optimal performance within a 60mm image circle.  So...  (60 - 36)/2 does limit your ideal movements to about 12mm.  I've pushed them further and have had decent luck so far (of course this varies by lens).  One of the first things I advise others to do is to learn the limitations of your tools and decide how they best interface with your workflow.  I'd love to test some Rodie HR's against comparable 'Blad glass, but I don't own any of the Rodenstocks.

The nitty gritty for me, though, is working on the wide end for interiors, where I'm most often at 17, 24 & 35mm focal lengths.  There is nothing of a comparable field of view available in medium format that gives as much movements (proportionally).

-CB

Hi Chris, isn't the 40 HR and 60 XL quite close to the 24mm and 35mm you are after?

I can understand Sony E system can allow you to work much more efficiently in high paced environment. However I would imagine moving from Phase Arca to Sony Hasselblad/Canon, the image quality must be slightly disappointing? Or do you feel they hold their own against the digital lenses?



 

[Steve Hendrix]

What are your impression shifting MF lenses (whatever the system is) on Sony A7r?
I've seen this link on Capture Integration and I've been very disappointed by the Hasselblad 60mm shifted 15mm:
https://captureintegration.com/first-look-cambo-actus/

Thanks
Marco

Hi Marco -

Yes, as evidenced in the review, at the bottom, I also was disappointed in the 60mm - to the point I wondered if we had a bad copy. We're happy to conduct lens tests for anyone interested in purchasing the Cambo Actus if we have a lens they're interested in testing, or, if they own it, they can send their lens to us to test. Alternatively, they can rent the Actus and apply their rental fee to the purchase. On the wide end, I've had the feeling that some of the 35mm/45mm lenses from Pentax or perhaps Mamiya might yield good results.

But also - this new product from Cambo may be another consideration:

https://captureintegration.com/first-look-cambo-actus-ef-aperture-controller-for-canon/

While it doesn't bring medium format lenses into play, it does greatly expand the wide lens possibilities for a Cambo Actus, and the overall lenses in general (including Zeiss Otus lenses).


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[ErikKaffehr]

I also (re)tested my Pentax 67 45/4 yesterday, and it was much better than the Distagon 40/4 on the edge.

Regarding the Hasselblad lens, the MTF curves from Hasselblad shows it's weakness at the edges. My definition of a good lens is that the top (10 lp/mm) curves stay around 90%, the next (20 lp/mm) stay above 80% and the third set of curves (40 lp/mm) stay above 60%.

I also attach center and corner shots with the Pentax 45/4 and the Distagon 40/4 (Pentax left Hasselblad) on right.

I also compared the Distagon 40/4 on the Blad with my P45+ and the Canon 16-35/4 zoom at 28 mm on the A7rII and the Canon A7rII combo is definitively the one that is better on the edge.

Shifts are limited by my adapter. The Pentax, being a 6x7 lens should allow a lot of shift.

The 16-35/4 can do a lot of shift at 24 and 35. I don't have any good tests. I am pretty happy with the 24/3.5 TSE LII, albeit my 16-35/4 zoom is much sharper, so I have used the 24/3.5 a lot. There is no aperture control on the Canon, so it is a bit cumbersome to use. I am a bit more interested in tilts than in shift.

Best regards
Erik

Thanks Erik, I thought Hasselblad lenses were better ... Coming from HR lenses on view camera with Credo 60 it's difficult to accept it.
I was considering to pass to A7r (wich I already own) with MF lenses on Arca F or Cambo Actus with Hasselblad lenses as Chris Barrett did but if this is the result ... I can't.
Could be you were using an old 40 Distagon non CF?
I'm missing something: how is it possible to shift a 16-35 Zoom on a 35mm format, how much do you shift?
Thanks

[jng]

The Distagon 40/4 CF. There is a later version called 40/CFx IF. That one is much better. I wouldn't expect large variations between CF variants.

Agreed. The 40/4 IF CFE is indeed very sharp corner-to-corner on my full frame IQ160 sensor. This lens has a different design than the older (and optically identical) 40 CF/CFE, which from the published MTF charts and Erik's testing will show, just don't hold up as well in the edges and corners.

Like Chris I too would be curious to see how the best V series lenses (the 40/4 IF and 100/3.5 among them) hold up to the comparable Rodies.

-John

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I am pretty pleased with my CF/CFi lenses, the Distagon 40 being the weak point. It is very well possible that my is a weak sample, but the MTF curves from Hasselblad/Zeiss don't hold a lot of promise either. I really bought it as a compromise lens. I have a good alternative in my Pentax 67 45/4 it seems.

I think that Chris Barret's observations are much more relevant than mine, he is a working pro while I am right now pixel peeping to find out which lenses to pack.

The Distagon 40/4 on the P45+ is good enough for perfectly sharp A2 (16"x23") prints. I did a quick test yesterday comparing the Distagon 40/P45+ combo with my Canon 16-35/4 Sony A7rII, both produce similar size images but the Canon 16-35 was clearly better on edge detail at infinity.

On thing to keep in mind that 12 mm shift on a 24x36 sensor is like 20 mm on a full size 645 sensor.

Best regards
Erik

I find the late (CFi/e) lenses to be quite good on the Sonys.  Do keep in mind that these lenses are designed for optimal performance within a 60mm image circle.  So...  (60 - 36)/2 does limit your ideal movements to about 12mm.  I've pushed them further and have had decent luck so far (of course this varies by lens).  One of the first things I advise others to do is to learn the limitations of your tools and decide how they best interface with your workflow.  I'd love to test some Rodie HR's against comparable 'Blad glass, but I don't own any of the Rodenstocks.

The nitty gritty for me, though, is working on the wide end for interiors, where I'm most often at 17, 24 & 35mm focal lengths.  There is nothing of a comparable field of view available in medium format that gives as much movements (proportionally).

-CB

[Chris Barrett]

Hi Chris, isn't the 40 HR and 60 XL quite close to the 24mm and 35mm you are after?

Yes, but I was talking about movements as well.  I can shift the 24mm about 15mm on the Sony, that's over 40% of the sensor's own width.  Using the IQ260 and a 40HR, you could shift about the same... 15mm (probably less), but then it's only about a 27% move of the sensor.  So, PROPORTIONALLY... you can have much bigger moves with 35mm, and there is nothing at all for MF that would compare to the shifts you can get on the 17mm TS-e.  Mind you, I'm talking specifically about architecture, where you might be on the street trying to shift to compose for the top of a tall building, or interiors where you want to maintain a one point perspective with a dramatically asymmetrical composition.  There's nothing more frustrating than having $70k worth of gear that just can't make the picture you were hired to shoot.

Yes, quality has definitely taken a bit of a hit.  I absolutely loved the files I got out of the IQ3 100.  Seriously, I want to buy that back.  I need to be able to do big shifts on wide lenses, though and the ability to do that seems to be more and more compromised with every new digital back. 

-CB

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for info!

Best regards
Erik

Yes, but I was talking about movements as well.  I can shift the 24mm about 15mm on the Sony, that's over 40% of the sensor's own width.  Using the IQ260 and a 40HR, you could shift about the same... 15mm (probably less), but then it's only about a 27% move of the sensor.  So, PROPORTIONALLY... you can have much bigger moves with 35mm, and there is nothing at all for MF that would compare to the shifts you can get on the 17mm TS-e.  Mind you, I'm talking specifically about architecture, where you might be on the street trying to shift to compose for the top of a tall building, or interiors where you want to maintain a one point perspective with a dramatically asymmetrical composition.  There's nothing more frustrating than having $70k worth of gear that just can't make the picture you were hired to shoot.

Yes, quality has definitely taken a bit of a hit.  I absolutely loved the files I got out of the IQ3 100.  Seriously, I want to buy that back.  I need to be able to do big shifts on wide lenses, though and the ability to do that seems to be more and more compromised with every new digital back. 

-CB

[BobDavid]

At f/8 and beyond, the Cambo Actar 24mm f/4 is a stunning performer.  I can't think of a better option for the money.

[Theodoros]

At f/8 and beyond, the Cambo Actar 24mm f/4 is a stunning performer.  I can't think of a better option for the money.

What is the image circle of it at f8?

EDIT: ...and what is its mounting distance at infinity?

[alatreille]

I need to be able to do big shifts on wide lenses, though and the ability to do that seems to be more and more compromised with every new digital back. 

-CB

Definitely frustrating....

Chris, have you had the opportunity to test the 11-24 on your Arca Set up?

Cheers

Andrew

[Chris Barrett]

Chris, have you had the opportunity to test the 11-24 on your Arca Set up?

YES!!!!  Chiek was kind enough to bring his out on our shoot in Seoul last month.  That lens is SO friggin good.  It has reasonable shifts and then you run into the lens shade.  I'm not sure whether I want to get mine with the shade cut off (from HCam) or leave it on.  Definitely on my acquisitions list.

[Theodoros]

Chris... it rather shows how photo industry runs these days, but the Actar is the ....Samyang 24mm f3.5 T-S, focus  & T-S mechanisms removed! The lens does perform acceptably well after f8... but it is prone to flare and there is some field curvature which makes it look a bit ....wider than 24mm. The frame is even up to FF frame, but after that (on 33x44 or 36/37 x 48/49 image sensors) it "opens" up the FOV (which means field curvature) and causes "stretched up" edges of frame... I had this in mind (meaning the Samyang) to convert for use on my Contax 645 and 37x49 sensor, but at the end, I changed my mind in favour of the Nikkor 24mm f3.5 PC-E (mechanisms removed), which although it has a bit narrower image circle, it is sharper across the 37x49 frame (especially if opened wider than f8), has no field curvature, is more resistant to flare and also... I've got the interface "broken" so that it will meter with the Contax 645 at full aperture....

[alatreille]

Awesome to know....
I had a chance to shoot it as a straight lens and have been debating just as you have....scalped lens or not?  Also need a job to justify the purchase.

How much shift did you get before the lens shade became an issue?

Cheers
Andrew

YES!!!!  Chiek was kind enough to bring his out on our shoot in Seoul last month.  That lens is SO friggin good.  It has reasonable shifts and then you run into the lens shade.  I'm not sure whether I want to get mine with the shade cut off (from HCam) or leave it on.  Definitely on my acquisitions list.