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Author Topic: Anybody tried Microsoft Storage Spaces?  (Read 4026 times)

andyptak

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Anybody tried Microsoft Storage Spaces?
« on: February 23, 2016, 04:39:57 pm »

I have two 24TB (8X3TB drives) cases for my archives, one a synched mirror of the other. I use Memeo Autosynch for this but I've never been happy with it. The fact that it synchs in both directions makes me cringe - no way of changing that. If one box becomes corrupted then it will be propagated to the other. Ouch. The lack of tools, options and even information as to how it works from Memeo itself, I find suspect.

I have been mulling converting to Storage Spaces and making one giant 48TB drive, using the mirrored option in Storage Spaces. I also understand that this option can use ReFS rather than NTFS for greater data integrity and to avoid bit rot.

I'm far from knowledgeable or tech savvy. I'm just a user who is looking for a better solution before disaster strikes and I find that I am not as secure as I thought I was. Thanks.
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dwswager

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Re: Anybody tried Microsoft Storage Spaces?
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2016, 02:33:42 pm »

I have two 24TB (8X3TB drives) cases for my archives, one a synched mirror of the other. I use Memeo Autosynch for this but I've never been happy with it. The fact that it synchs in both directions makes me cringe - no way of changing that. If one box becomes corrupted then it will be propagated to the other. Ouch. The lack of tools, options and even information as to how it works from Memeo itself, I find suspect.

I have been mulling converting to Storage Spaces and making one giant 48TB drive, using the mirrored option in Storage Spaces. I also understand that this option can use ReFS rather than NTFS for greater data integrity and to avoid bit rot.

I'm far from knowledgeable or tech savvy. I'm just a user who is looking for a better solution before disaster strikes and I find that I am not as secure as I thought I was. Thanks.

From what I know "Storage Spaces" is functionality based on "Drive Extender" that was built into Microsoft Windows Home Server prior to the 2011 release.  When WHS 2011 came out it lacked drive extender and a couple companies came in to fill the void.   I use Stablebit DrivePool on WHS 2011 and it has worked flawlessly.  It allows you to pool as many disks as you want the then specify which folders should be duplicated.  It keeps full copies in a regular format on 2 separate discs such that a single hard drive failure would still leave you with a copy of your files in the duplicated folder.  Think something like a RAID mirror without having to use the entire disk in a mirror and allowing as many disks as you want in the pool.  The other benefit is that unlike a RAID 5, 6 or 10 array, it does not have to be "rebuilt" by the same controller so if your  device goes bad you have to go buy the same device or similar.

Drive Extender had a specific vulnerability and that supposedly was fixed when storage spaces was introduced in Windows 8.  You can buy a Windows version of DrivePool that has years of reliable history for $29.95.
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andyptak

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Re: Anybody tried Microsoft Storage Spaces?
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2016, 03:34:33 pm »

Thanks. I actually checked it out when I read your own post.

My archive is actually managed by a separate computer from the one I use for my Photoshop work, so I have a back-up machine if an emergency occurs with my primary machine, and the two drive cases are connected by USB3 and one is supposed to be an exact duplicate of the other. Individual drives in box A are mapped to individual drives in box B.

I thought it was a simple set up with little overhead and very little to go wrong until I noticed that some of the drives on either side of the synch didn't match in terms of Gigs used. On some, the drive on box A was bigger while on others it was the opposite way around. At first I thought hidden files or compression on the synch but that didn't match the inconsistency. It was then that I discovered that Memeo Autosynch synchs in both directions - so if the data became corrupted synching from the master to the slave it could be replicated right back again to the master. Not good.

Storage Spaces seemed like an easy solution and the fact that it could use ReFS meant that I would be getting verification and other housekeeping measures automatically occurring in the background. No more "CHKDSK!"

Is DrivePool a good alternative for a non-techie, simpleton like me? The site Forum was a bit above my head in many places.

Thanks again.
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dwswager

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Re: Anybody tried Microsoft Storage Spaces?
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2016, 04:25:43 pm »

Thanks. I actually checked it out when I read your own post.

My archive is actually managed by a separate computer from the one I use for my Photoshop work, so I have a back-up machine if an emergency occurs with my primary machine, and the two drive cases are connected by USB3 and one is supposed to be an exact duplicate of the other. Individual drives in box A are mapped to individual drives in box B.

I thought it was a simple set up with little overhead and very little to go wrong until I noticed that some of the drives on either side of the synch didn't match in terms of Gigs used. On some, the drive on box A was bigger while on others it was the opposite way around. At first I thought hidden files or compression on the synch but that didn't match the inconsistency. It was then that I discovered that Memeo Autosynch synchs in both directions - so if the data became corrupted synching from the master to the slave it could be replicated right back again to the master. Not good.

Storage Spaces seemed like an easy solution and the fact that it could use ReFS meant that I would be getting verification and other housekeeping measures automatically occurring in the background. No more "CHKDSK!"

Is DrivePool a good alternative for a non-techie, simpleton like me? The site Forum was a bit above my head in many places.

Thanks again.

I find it simple.  You load the software.  Tell it what drives to put in the pool.  It will create a virtural drive that is the pooled drive. I administer mine on the WHS 2011 server addin page.  Basically all you have is info display and then you can select what folders to duplicate.  Other than duplicate some new folder every once in awhile, I have not had to touch it.

I'm pretty sure you can download a copy for a 30 day trial.  Because your files are just regular files, taking a drive out the pool doesn't change the contents of the drive at all.
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lhodaniel

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Re: Anybody tried Microsoft Storage Spaces?
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2016, 06:09:41 pm »

I used a 2 disk Storage Spaces mirror on my recently retire Windows desktop. I went to a Mac in December. SS worked fine, though I believe is was somewhat slower than the drives would have been on their own. Speed was still comfortable.

I did have one surprise though. When I was porting all my data to the Mac, I (perhaps naively) assumed that the mirror would act like any RAID 1. That is, I could take one of the mirror drives and use it to copy to the Mac. Doesn't work. I had to copy the SS to another HD using my old windows computer, then copy that to the Mac-formatted disk.

Lloyd
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dwswager

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Re: Anybody tried Microsoft Storage Spaces?
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2016, 07:46:52 pm »

I used a 2 disk Storage Spaces mirror on my recently retire Windows desktop. I went to a Mac in December. SS worked fine, though I believe is was somewhat slower than the drives would have been on their own. Speed was still comfortable.

I did have one surprise though. When I was porting all my data to the Mac, I (perhaps naively) assumed that the mirror would act like any RAID 1. That is, I could take one of the mirror drives and use it to copy to the Mac. Doesn't work. I had to copy the SS to another HD using my old windows computer, then copy that to the Mac-formatted disk.

That seems like odd behavior.

All I know is with DrivePool if you put 2 drives in the pool and then tell it to duplicate every folder, you would end up with 2 identical drives (at least from the perpective of the retrievable files) that would be usable in a computer.  Add a 3rd drive or have folders that aren't set for duplication and then all bets are off.
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BobShaw

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Re: Anybody tried Microsoft Storage Spaces?
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2016, 01:02:03 am »

Your current system provides no backup.
Also RAID provides no backup. Zero, zip, none.
In any synced system, if one file is corrupt then the copy is also corrupt.
Anything which is all live is not a backup, because the one surge will take out everything.
All of these multiple copy solutions probably don't work anyway, but even if they did, they don't provide backup.

If you have a backup, then you have a timestamped version that is completely independent of the current data. Unpowered and ideally in another building.
If you delete a file today or format the wrong drive today then you can recover it tomorrow because you had a backup taken the DAY BEFORE it went wrong. That is BACK UP, like reverse gear.
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Osprey

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Re: Anybody tried Microsoft Storage Spaces?
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2016, 04:32:02 am »

I use a cheapish program called Syncback to backup.  Has lots of setup options.  Never really had a problem with it, I just use it to have folders on different drives to backup to my main backup drives.

I have also been using Crashplan, and I think if you wanted to, you could use Crashplan to backup to your local backup drives for free, without purchasing their web service.   
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dwswager

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Re: Anybody tried Microsoft Storage Spaces?
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2016, 07:58:58 am »

Your current system provides no backup.
Also RAID provides no backup. Zero, zip, none.
In any synced system, if one file is corrupt then the copy is also corrupt.
Anything which is all live is not a backup, because the one surge will take out everything.
All of these multiple copy solutions probably don't work anyway, but even if they did, they don't provide backup.

If you have a backup, then you have a timestamped version that is completely independent of the current data. Unpowered and ideally in another building.
If you delete a file today or format the wrong drive today then you can recover it tomorrow because you had a backup taken the DAY BEFORE it went wrong. That is BACK UP, like reverse gear.

We are discussing 2 different issue here.  One is protection from a single drive failure.  The other is dealing with data corruption.  Both issues need to be addressed.  As you indicate, a backup of a validated copy is the solution to the data corruption issue.  RAID arrays and other "mirror" solutions work the single point of failure issue.

This is why I'm looking at M-Disc or the Sony/Panasonic Archival Disc (though this might be out of my price range) for backup, but would continue a mirror array on my desktop and using DrivePool to duplicate folders on the server.
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andyptak

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Re: Anybody tried Microsoft Storage Spaces?
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2016, 01:22:44 pm »

Bob - I never stated that this was my backup. Far from it, an archive is not a backup.

This is a separate machine from my everyday production machine and it, and the associated drives, house the archive library of my last ten years of work. The files are accessed several times a week to fill stock requests etc., and all this set up is intended to do is give on-the-fly redundancy.
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BobShaw

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Re: Anybody tried Microsoft Storage Spaces?
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2016, 04:50:31 pm »

No problem Andy. You understand the difference between redundancy and backup. 90% of people don't.

>dwswager, your statement "RAID arrays and other "mirror" solutions work the single point of failure issue"  is unfortunately wrong. RAID IS a single point of failure. There are probably a dozen things that will cause a raid array to completely lose all data. Apart from the obvious ones of human error, if the drive housing fails then the many raid arrays can not be rebuilt, as they depend on the software in the housing. A power surge will take out everything. If one drive fails then the second one is about to also, so you even know that one drive has failed?

Redundancy provides the ability for a device to keep serving data for a single disk failure only. The main purpose is to keep web and e-commerce servers ticking over until a tech arrives. Pretty useless for a photographer. Better to put the money into more backups.
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dwswager

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Re: Anybody tried Microsoft Storage Spaces?
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2016, 09:05:55 pm »

No problem Andy. You understand the difference between redundancy and backup. 90% of people don't.

>dwswager, your statement "RAID arrays and other "mirror" solutions work the single point of failure issue"  is unfortunately wrong. RAID IS a single point of failure. There are probably a dozen things that will cause a raid array to completely lose all data. Apart from the obvious ones of human error, if the drive housing fails then the many raid arrays can not be rebuilt, as they depend on the software in the housing. A power surge will take out everything. If one drive fails then the second one is about to also, so you even know that one drive has failed?

Redundancy provides the ability for a device to keep serving data for a single disk failure only. The main purpose is to keep web and e-commerce servers ticking over until a tech arrives. Pretty useless for a photographer. Better to put the money into more backups.

The single point of failure being protected with a mirror or Raid Array is failure of a single drive.  I've been doing this long enough that I have had multiple drive failures occur.  Which is why I no longer use RAID arrays with striping because rebuilding the array in not only time consuming, but treacherous.   And no, when a drive fails, they all don't fail.  However, it is prudent to swap in new drives on a predetermined basis because they do wear out

Any active system is susceptible to data corruption and loss from multiple issues including human error, power, hardware failure, etc.  Hence, your argument against mirrors or raid arrays is invalid. That is the difference between an active system and a backup.  A backup, once validated, is not susceptible to these active failure mechanisms.  They are susceptible to passive failures such as media decay and access obsolescence.

This is why backups are not BETTER than active systems, they are DIFFERENT.  Each is trying to protect against different vulnerabilities while providing different benefits and it takes BOTH to have a good strategy.
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BobShaw

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Re: Anybody tried Microsoft Storage Spaces?
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2016, 04:12:55 am »

Any active system is susceptible to data corruption and loss from multiple issues including human error, power, hardware failure, etc.  Hence, your argument against mirrors or raid arrays is invalid.

Sentence two does not follow from sentence one. If data on one drive is corrupt, deleted etc then the mirror or raid array is also corrupt, deleted etc.

This is why backups are not BETTER than active systems, they are DIFFERENT.  Each is trying to protect against different vulnerabilities while providing different benefits and it takes BOTH to have a good strategy.
Your active system is your data. It is not a matter of one being better than the other. Not really sure what you are saying.
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dwswager

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Re: Anybody tried Microsoft Storage Spaces?
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2016, 08:41:46 am »


Sentence two does not follow from sentence one. If data on one drive is corrupt, deleted etc then the mirror or raid array is also corrupt, deleted etc.
Your active system is your data. It is not a matter of one being better than the other. Not really sure what you are saying.

I actually think we probably agree, but...

Having a mirror or RAID array does not impact the data corruption or human error component.  When data is transient, it can be corrupted.  When the medium allows access and editing, the data can be lost to numerous events including human error.  As the data is written out from a camera sensor to the buffer, it can be corrupted.  It does not matter if I've writing to a flash card, hard drive, 2 hard drives, a RAID array, etc.  Hence, any argument you have made concerning a RAID array, is also valid in every other data transition scenario.  It is true, the a specific implementation of a RAID array may in fact, be more vulnerable than some other implementation.  This is why "Moving" files from one place to another on computer system/network is really a copy and delete operation and not a true move.  The original is not destroyed until the copy is validated (or should be).

Just the fact that data is on a medium that is re-writable, put it at risk from some threats.  Assume a Writable and a Rewritable DVD containing the same data.  The data on the rewritable DVD is at more risk precisely because it is rewritable.  However, they both share other risks of the same type, if not the same magnitude.  Things like disc warping or surface imperfections.





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Joe Towner

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Re: Anybody tried Microsoft Storage Spaces?
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2016, 11:03:46 pm »

I would actually recommend against Storage Spaces for a non-technical user, even more so given the frequency that Microsoft kills off random, fully functional projects.

Tell me more about these 8 drive cases - who makes them, and how long have you had them?  Are they close to full or are you starting to look for options?

I'm a Mac user, so Chronosync allows for one way sync, and archival of items replaced.  GoodSync is on Windows, and will replicate 2way (sync) or 1way (backup), so give that a look (you want backup).
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