Multi-shot aka pixel shift going mainstream

[eronald]

Pentax K-1, 36MP.

Even crisper images with Pixel Shift Resolution

Ricoh has retained its Pixel Shift Resolution feature, which debuted on the Pentax K-3 II, for the new Pentax K-1. As in that camera, the function captures four sequential images, shifting the Shake Reduction sensor-shift assembly by one pixel between shots. The result is both full color capture at every pixel location, and reduced noise levels as well. But where the K-3 II could only use the function for completely static subjects -- at least officially -- the Pentax K-1 can now detect and account for subjects that moved between frames.

http://imaging-resource.com/PRODS/pentax-k1/pentax-k1A.HTM

[gebseng]

Probably only true for the In-Camera JPEGs, but not for the RAWs?

[eronald]

Probably only true for the In-Camera JPEGs, but not for the RAWs?

I don't see why.

The interesting question is whether this tech will be in future Pentax MF bodies. Could give the Phase 100MP back a run for its money ... at 20% of the price.

Edmund

[synn]

Could give the Phase 100MP back a run for its money ... at 20% of the price.

Edmund

...when the subject is perfectly still. You could try choroform  for human subjects, but I highly doubt it is legal.


On a serious note, to make this work for RAWs like with Hasselblads, the software needs to be able to handle it. I highly doubt LR will and considering Pentax offers no real demosaicing software of their own, one can safely say that it will be JPEG only.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I don't see why.

Indeed, it will presumably work just fine in Raw, although the functionality may require a special Raw conversion plugin/application if it is not done in camera (a plugin like Olympus did until ACR implemented it natively). If it is done in-camera, then the Raw file would be larger because it now has to store RGB per pixel instead of 4x one color plane per pixel, and a Raw converter would have to understand that no demosaicing needs to take place.

The interesting question is whether this tech will be in future Pentax MF bodies. Could give the Phase 100MP back a run for its money ... at 20% of the price.

I think it's unlikely to become mainstream, or available in all Pentax bodies. It's a specialized capture mode for stationary subjects under stable lighting conditions, so more suited for professional/studio work. Ricoh/Pentax have only implemented full sensel shift, so we only get an improved RGB colorsampling, no super-resoution enhancement like from half-sensel shift multi-shots.

Your continued stabs at Phase One get a bit tiresome, but a camera and support system is more than a sensor at a low price. Besides, the Phase One system uses a 16-bit processing pipe-line which achieves something like more than 14.3 stops of engineering Dynamic Range at base ISO. That is unlikely to be achievable with the Pentax if they use less than internal 16-bit processing.

But the Pentax looks like a nice camera with interesting features. It will depend on the lens arsenal whether it gets major traction in the market, and how well their service organization is implemented if they want professionals to use the system.

Cheers,
Bart

[Theodoros]

I believe that the real revolution to the way that pro photographers approach their work, will be when the first FF mirror less with "true colour" ability hits the market... In fact, it surprises me that Sony hasn't integrate a similar feature in their α7 series yet... (although I'm sure they will at some point).  I imagine it will then be common between pros to use the mirrorless only on their tech camera and combine it with some MF & wide image circle 35mm lenses as to do things that they where doing with their MFDBs up to now... One should also expect Pentax to integrate the function in their next generation P645 camera as it is odd for the feature to be present in the lower format models but excluded from their flagship.

[Theodoros]

Indeed, it will presumably work just fine in Raw, although the functionality may require a special Raw conversion plugin/application if it is not done in camera (a plugin like Olympus did until ACR implemented it natively). If it is done in-camera, then the Raw file would be larger because it now has to store RGB per pixel instead of 4x one color plane per pixel, and a Raw converter would have to understand that no demosaicing needs to take place.

I think it's unlikely to become mainstream, or available in all Pentax bodies. It's a specialized capture mode for stationary subjects under stable lighting conditions, so more suited for professional/studio work. Ricoh/Pentax have only implemented full sensel shift, so we only get an improved RGB colorsampling, no super-resoution enhancement like from half-sensel shift multi-shots.

Your continued stabs at Phase One get a bit tiresome, but a camera and support system is more than a sensor at a low price. Besides, the Phase One system uses a 16-bit processing pipe-line which achieves something like more than 14.3 stops of engineering Dynamic Range at base ISO. That is unlikely to be achievable with the Pentax if they use less than internal 16-bit processing.

But the Pentax looks like a nice camera with interesting features. It will depend on the lens arsenal whether it gets major traction in the market, and how well their service organization is implemented if they want professionals to use the system.

Cheers,
Bart

Within the Far East imaging industry, it is common and traditional when a new (useful) feature is offered from one maker, the same feature to be adopted by the rest of the industry.... For the moment, there are three makers (Samsung, Olympus & Pentax) that have included tricolour capturing as a feature... Normally it shouldn't be long before the feature becomes common between all makers. One should also notice that Hasselblad has started selling their MS backs as stand alone backs (clearly aiming to the pros that use view cameras). I don't see why Pentax won't include the feature in their P645 series... in fact I'm sure they will. One should also expect Leica to come with a similar feature as their (ultra wide mount) SL looks ideal for use with a view camera and the traditional MS supporter (Sinar) is coming with new backs... I think P1's group should highly consider some "true colour" offering as they are currently the only MF maker that is absent from the field.

[synn]

I think P1's group should highly consider some "true colour" offering as they are currently the only MF maker that is absent from the field.

You start off with facts about Hasselblad having multishot, add speculation about Pentax and Leica out of personal bias and try to pass it off as fact and end with a statement that P1 is currently the ONLY maker missing a multishot system. 

Classic Theodoros post, folks!

[Paul2660]

The Pentax will be possibly be one of the best implementations/features available cameras from the Sony 36MP sensor.  Imaging Resource seems to imply that Pentax has developed some type of firmware intelligence that can also accommodate movements for multishot. 

Pentax to me only has one big issue, the fact that Canon or Nikon glass can't be adapted to their body, and even the numbers of third party lenses are considerably less.  For example only 1 of the Sigma Art line that has the Pentax K mount, the 35mm 1.4.  They may add more now that Pentax has a full frame body, which they have not had before.  In fact this is more than likely why no 3rd party glass is designed for Pentax, i.e. this is their first full frame digital body. 

They sure stretched the features from the Sony chip, which they needed to.  So for Pentax shooters this is great!, but I don't see a lot of folks switching over from Canon or Nikon.  If the mount was more forgiving for other brand glass, this might be a huge seller.

Paul C

[Ken R]

The Pentax K-1 will affect more the sales of the Nikon D-810 and maybe the A-7RII although it lacks Nikon's lens selection and of course the huge lens adaptation capability of the A7RII. If the K-1 tests well it is going to be a great alternative to those who are looking for top notch sensor performance at a low price and do not need a wide lens selection. Even so, the A-7R v1 is available used at bargain prices so it has some competition. But the K-1 feature set looks amazing on paper specially the pixel shift modes and astro track. Seems Pentax has an amazing sensor control/movement unit. The pixel shift image quality on the K-3 II was already superb. Awesome for product/still life in the studio since it basically eliminates all the artifacts/issues of the bayer sensor. The K-1's should be even better.

[BernardLanguillier]

Things would get really interesting if this were available in a 645Y using the Sony 100mp chip.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Theodoros]

You start off with facts about Hasselblad having multishot, add speculation about Pentax and Leica out of personal bias and try to pass it off as fact and end with a statement that P1 is currently the ONLY maker missing a multishot system. 

Classic Theodoros post, folks!

Fanboys of a company, is the last thing those that are after ultimate quality imaging needs... P1 group  IS the only MF company that doesn't offer true colour captures and true colour captures are far superior that Bayern pattern captures... at least for those that have compared the two...

[synn]

Fanboys of a company, is the last thing those that are after ultimate quality imaging needs... P1 group  IS the only MF company that doesn't offer true colour captures and true colour captures are far superior that Bayern pattern captures... at least for those that have compared the two...

I like how you backpedal your statement into the only "Company" now.
This is all beyond hilarious.

p.s. This has nothing to do with "Is multishot better than single shot", so stop throwing that strowman around when your original BS post was called out.

[BJL]

Probably only true for the In-Camera JPEGs, but not for the RAWs?

Olympus provides high res raw files with its version of pixel shifting in the OMD EM5 Mk II, so maybe the Pentax K-1 does likewise.

...when the subject is perfectly still.

Such tools are indeed primarily for stationary subjects, though with good enough IBIS and reconstruction algorithms that correct for some motion between frames, it might no longer need the camera to be locked down on a tripod.

But a serious question: how likely is it that a photograph of a moving subject will have sharp enough focus and little enough motion blur for a 100MP image to be usefully sharper than a 36MP one, or even a mere 20MP one?  Maybe with lots of light allowing a very high shutter speed, and with an autofocus system capable of very quickly and accurately focusing on a moving subject, which would probably require off-center AF points since the time delay of focus-and-recompose would lose the very precise focus needed.  Does Phase One or any MF system have a suitable AF system?

[PdF]

Let us not forget that Sinar also supplies (and for a long time) multishoot backs.

PdF

[BJL]

Pentax to me only has one big issue, the fact that Canon or Nikon glass can't be adapted to their body, and even the numbers of third party lenses are considerably less.

I agree that lens selection is the main vulnerability for Ricoh/Pentax; I like a lot of what that company does, but I wish it would move a bit beyond its traditionalist/retro/purist focus, as if targeting mostly customers who are already loyal Pentax lens owners, and start also offering mirrorless bodies with lens mounts shallow enough to allow adaptors for both Pentax SLR lenses and various third party options.

But maybe the business model is pricing the bodies to sell (at minimal profit margin) and then making most profits on lenses.

[Theodoros]

The wonder we all should have, is whether with a (future) 36x24 sensor of 36mp othat has half pixel step ability on a mirrorless and provides up to 144mp of true colour, one would ever bother with an MFDB again... As BJL mentioned earlier, low res MFDBs don't differ from higher res ones for image quality enough for one to bother with the extra resolution (neither DSLRs do for the same reasons), it's with (absolute) stills that resolution and colour accuracy can often be crucial....  If then one will soon have a mirrorless able to deliver 144mp true colour files, would he ever bother for 400mp respective ones out of Sony's 400mp sensor? ...I wouldn't... I would care much more then for the software's colour calibration accuracy and wouldn't have a problem dumping my beloved Sinarback 54 H altogether then...

[tsjanik]

FYI:  Pentax pixel shift in RAW is already implemented in the K-3 II and an interesting comparison to the Nikon 810 can be seen here:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/pentax-k3-ii/pentax-k3-iiTECH2.HTM

What's intriguing is that Ricoh claims pixel shift, as now implemented in the K-1,  can be used handheld as the software can correct for some subject movement.  The K-1 may very well be competitive with the 645Z under certain conditions.

[Theodoros]

FYI:  Pentax pixel shift in RAW is already implemented in the K-3 II and an interesting comparison to the Nikon 810 can be seen here:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/pentax-k3-ii/pentax-k3-iiTECH2.HTM

What's intriguing is that Ricoh claims pixel shift, as now implemented in the K-1,  can be used handheld as the software can correct for some subject movement.  The K-1 may very well be competitive with the 645Z under certain conditions.

LOL... The D810 looks rubbish in comparison and it is compared only to the K3 II... Just imagine if the K1 was instead... Same kind of results we obtain when one (tries) to compare an old Sinarback 54H or Imacon 528c to a modern high resolution back... Look at the colour (other than the detail) of the D810... it tends to be laughable what we consider as "good quality" out of a Bayer sensor... 

[alatreille]

Things would get really interesting if this were available in a 645Y using the Sony 100mp chip.

Cheers,
Bernard

Wouldn't the mechanism to stabilize the larger sensor would be much more challenging?
Sure Pentax/Ricoh have the conceptual methods in practise (they have since the K20d), but my understanding is it wouldn't just be as simple as upsizing this?

But I would like this!