Interesting Q&A from a fashion pro on giving up his Phase One system.

[Osprey]

Here on Reddit

[Paul2660]

Interesting read. 

His comments on the DF or DF+ bodies, are common.  Hopefully with the XF Phase has addressed some of these issues. 

The comments on being too expensive, many would agree with that also.  It's my personal belief that Phase One missed the market entirely with the IQ150 due to their pricing structure and I think if you look at total sales of the 150 in the US alone they have been very small. The fact that it took Adobe almost a year to add support for the IQ150 points to the small overall demand.  It was just added with LR 6.4. But the IQ250 was added almost immediately on it's announcement.  But due to the fact that Phase One has always allowed a upgrade program, I guess deems the fact that they can't price the IQ150 in the same market as the Hasselblad 50c.  And it's a toss up to say the two backs are direct competitors.  But I think that the general impression of the buying public is that the 50MP Phase IQ150 is grossly overpriced.  Again overall sales numbers will support this in my opinion.

AF issues, same complaints as those from years ago, only 1 center AF point and not accurate AF.  The later seems to have been addressed with the XF (however as he points out at a cost as the upgrade from the DF or DF+ to XF was not inexpensive), the former, looks like just can't be done.  Phase had years to work on this with Mamiya (now they are all one happy family) and after 4 years, they came out with 1 AF point again.  They make a big deal about the Honeybee AF system, and I hope that there will be enhancements to it via firmware, but I don't see how they can add more focus points.  Looks like it's going to be  1 center point  forever, at least as long as you use Phase systems. 

Paul C

[torger]

It's the same story as always. MFD has better image quality, but 135 is good enough and more reliable and flexible and definitely cheaper.

However where the balance point is, is personal for every photographer.

[Endeavour]

interesting he wanted to switch to 'have less stuff'. That's one of the main reasons I was glad to switch to MF; the amount of 'crap' and accessories I had built up with my canon kit was crazy - I dont see the same options to have extra kit even if I were inclined to get some.

also, I wondered why he purchased his backup stuff, rather than just renting them as and when he needed? the cost outlay of a redundant setup must be hard to justify whatever system you are using?

[Ken R]

Interesting read. 

His comments on the DF or DF+ bodies, are common.  Hopefully with the XF Phase has addressed some of these issues. 

The comments on being too expensive, many would agree with that also.  It's my personal belief that Phase One missed the market entirely with the IQ150 due to their pricing structure and I think if you look at total sales of the 150 in the US alone they have been very small. The fact that it took Adobe almost a year to add support for the IQ150 points to the small overall demand.  It was just added with LR 6.4. But the IQ250 was added almost immediately on it's announcement.  But due to the fact that Phase One has always allowed a upgrade program, I guess deems the fact that they can't price the IQ150 in the same market as the Hasselblad 50c.  And it's a toss up to say the two backs are direct competitors.  But I think that the general impression of the buying public is that the 50MP Phase IQ150 is grossly overpriced.  Again overall sales numbers will support this in my opinion.

AF issues, same complaints as those from years ago, only 1 center AF point and not accurate AF.  The later seems to have been addressed with the XF (however as he points out at a cost as the upgrade from the DF or DF+ to XF was not inexpensive), the former, looks like just can't be done.  Phase had years to work on this with Mamiya (now they are all one happy family) and after 4 years, they came out with 1 AF point again.  They make a big deal about the Honeybee AF system, and I hope that there will be enhancements to it via firmware, but I don't see how they can add more focus points.  Looks like it's going to be  1 center point  forever, at least as long as you use Phase systems. 

Paul C

The IQ150 should be priced at $10k ($9995) similar to the Hasselblad CFV-50c even though the IQ150 is a nicer back. At that price Phase can get a lot more people into their system.

Regarding the DF issues I never owned one but nightmare stories abound. The XF is a whole different beast.

My H1 is a beat up old body but keeps working fine with my IQ160. Rock solid system so far.

The Guy switched to Nikon because his priorities changed. Cameras are tools, pick one that suits you best. Would be sad if there was only one to choose from. Some of the differences between systems are subtle and for some they are not worth the cost.

[Theodoros]

It's the same story as always. MFD has better image quality, but 135 is good enough and more reliable and flexible and definitely cheaper.

However where the balance point is, is personal for every photographer.

OK - but...

Pricing you refer is only about P1, the rest (Pentax, Hasselblad, Leica) are doing quite well at the moment as they've realised that price difference from MF with respect to FF, can't be of more than what reasons it...

After all, he only gave up his P1 system...

[Theodoros]

The IQ150 should be priced at $10k ($9995) similar to the Hasselblad CFV-50c even though the IQ150 is a nicer back. At that price Phase can get a lot more people into their system.

P1 is really trapped into their own pricing policy, in reality (almost) nobody has payed what the price list says that their back worths, if they now change the policy and sell the IQ-150 for 10K (which they can easily do) it would have two effects with respect to their current customers...

1. People asking "why did you steal on me?"
2. They would have to significantly decrease their "ex-demo", "refurbished" and "S/H" MFDB prices that are the vast percentage of their sales....

Tough, but they'll have to it if they are to survive as competition seems to be as aggressive to them, as they where with respect to competition when they could... It will create many dissatisfied customers and will disappoint many of them as to abandon MF altogether... but they can't survive if they keep pricing products with other prices in their pricing catalog and then sell them as POA...  (which means the higher we can get of you...)

[eronald]

OK - but...

Pricing you refer is only about P1, the rest (Pentax, Hasselblad, Leica) are doing quite well at the moment as they've realised that price difference from MF with respect to FF, can't be of more than what reasons it...

After all, he only gave up his P1 system...

Pentax, Hasselblad and Leica always have had decent bodies with decent AF - these companies have made the mistake of concentrating on making cameras while Phase concentrated on making sales.

Edmund

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

What I learn from this is that priorities can change and good enough can be good enough.

The poster felt that MFD was preferable to his Nikon 800D, but adding a vertical grip and a Sigma 50/1.4 Art made the smaller system good enough and reliability was far better on the Nikon side.

Also, the Nikon works better for him with air travel, while his experience with reliability on Phase One is bad.

From my view a camera is an imaging system. Lenses and sensor are important. Camera usability can be important but it is distant sixth in my priorities.

First priority is affordability, things I cannot afford take no pictures.

Second is a good tripod and head combined with good quick release and L-plates.

Third is lens and sensor.

Fourth is transportability - can I get the stuff with me when I travel?

Fifth is flexibility can I use tilt and shift once I got my stuff into location?

Sixth is usability, user interface and stuff like that

Best regards
Erik

[Ken R]

P1 is really trapped into their own pricing policy, in reality (almost) nobody has payed what the price list says that their back worths, if they now change the policy and sell the IQ-150 for 10K (which they can easily do) it would have two effects with respect to their current customers...

1. People asking "why did you steal on me?"
2. They would have to significantly decrease their "ex-demo", "refurbished" and "S/H" MFDB prices that are the vast percentage of their sales....

Tough, but they'll have to it if they are to survive as competition seems to be as aggressive to them, as they where with respect to competition when they could... It will create many dissatisfied customers and will disappoint many of them as to abandon MF altogether... but they can't survive if they keep pricing products with other prices in their pricing catalog and then sell them as POA...  (which means the higher we can get of you...)

They can start selling the IQ150 for 10k no without much trouble from current owners because the IQ150 has been available for a while and now they have the 100mp available so the product line is pretty complete and progressive for a wide price range on their product line. Hasselblad kinda did the same with their CFV-50c starting at 15k now at 10k but they are missing the 80mp and 100mp models.

PhaseOne concentrated on making the best digital backs, and they did, they do and also they developed and produced the XF body which has been available for some time now. The XF is a superb camera platform. The DF is long forgotten, its all about the XF now. The Phase lenses are still mostly modified Mamiya designs but the new 35mm and 40-80mm are not and im sure there are more to come. 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Hasselblad's position with the CFV-50c is a bit different, they are targeting the 550000 V-system cameras sold. H-system prices are higher.

I would guess that 100MP models are coming, Mr Oosten was pretty clear on the issue in the LR interview but he talked about redesigning the electronics. I don't think that Hasselblad will present an 80 MP solution, just 50 MP 1.3X crop and 100 MP full frame.

What I hope is that they offer 100 MP CMOS at IQ-260 CCD prices.

Best regards
Erik

They can start selling the IQ150 for 10k no without much trouble from current owners because the IQ150 has been available for a while and now they have the 100mp available so the product line is pretty complete and progressive for a wide price range on their product line. Hasselblad kinda did the same with their CFV-50c starting at 15k now at 10k but they are missing the 80mp and 100mp models.

PhaseOne concentrated on making the best digital backs, and they did, they do and also they developed and produced the XF body which has been available for some time now. The XF is a superb camera platform. The DF is long forgotten, its all about the XF now. The Phase lenses are still mostly modified Mamiya designs but the new 35mm and 40-80mm are not and im sure there are more to come.

[Endeavour]

I think he's being a bit disingenuous saying things like "... everything simply works, 100% of the time. No misfires, no startup time, no batteries running out, no worries. I'm not fighting the camera anymore, which is a joy."

A nikon will run out of batteries just as a Canon or Hasselblad will.
Any camera could have a technical fault occur. What about Canon's error 99's? or a mirror / shutter failure?

problems are not limited to a specific format. there is a lot of 'grass is greener' sentimentality in his post.

[eronald]

In the end pros are conscious of money. No surprise that the outrageous markups of MF put them off the products.

Edmund

[gazwas]

The DF is long forgotten, its all about the XF now.

The trouble with the XF is it was so long coming. Hints and development announcements without any real promise of a release date and many (me included) started looking and using different cameras. Once you get used to some of the newer tech the MF system just didn't seem worth the expense despite its slight IQ advantage.

[eronald]

I think he's being a bit disingenuous saying things like "... everything simply works, 100% of the time. No misfires, no startup time, no batteries running out, no worries. I'm not fighting the camera anymore, which is a joy."

A nikon will run out of batteries just as a Canon or Hasselblad will.
Any camera could have a technical fault occur. What about Canon's error 99's? or a mirror / shutter failure?

problems are not limited to a specific format. there is a lot of 'grass is greener' sentimentality in his post.

When my Phase system failed, I showed the files with a magenta stripe to Phase, and they told me I had a Mamiya synch failure. My dealer who had sold me back, body and warranty agreed that I had a VA warranty on the back, but the Mamiya was a normal warranty, and I would need it sent back to Japan and wait a few months. Of course he was being an obdurate **** on purpose, but this didn't make me happy with him. For information, Mamiya, I found out later has a workshop in Germany. Dealing with cheaper more widely available bodies is helpful because it means you can more easily find a workaround. In my was I bought a replacement body for about $1K on the used market btw, but I wasn't feeling happy with the quality of Phase dealers.

Edmund

[Theodoros]

........Any camera could have a technical fault occur......

Any camera... but what if it does and costs 20 times more than another that would cost 20 times less and would provide 95% as much before the technical fault occurs?

[Theodoros]

The trouble with the XF is it was so long coming. Hints and development announcements without any real promise of a release date and many (me included) started looking and using different cameras. Once you get used to some of the newer tech the MF system just didn't seem worth the expense despite its slight IQ advantage.

The problem with XF is not its design... It is that it excludes from using it anybody but one that buys an IQ back with it... It is a "closed" system aimed to trap people in a forced path... Nothing else wrong with it, but what is wrong with it, is fatal... No real photographer will turn into a P1 funboy because P1 wishes to trap him as being their ever customer... same mistake as Hasselblad did back then... same exact fatal mistake...

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Yes, of course. But, I have been shooting for 50 years and I had only one camera failing of the 20-30 I had in that time and that was a Minolta XD-7. Some stuff I have survived pretty wet conditions.

I would also add that any equipment can fail, that is the reason I alway carry two bodies. Lenses can also fail, so I like to have an APS-C standard zoom as a backup. The APS-C system also works as a great street camera.

The "fashion pro" had multiple failures on his system. If you depend on a system it needs to be rock solid, but you still need a backup.

Personally, I was shooting mostly Hasselbald 555/ELD and a P45+ mostly for two years, but now I find that my Sony A7rII delivers a better image quality in a more practical package, so I see that the MFD system will see little use. Still, I like shooting with the Hasselblad.

Best regards
Erik

Any camera... but what if it does and costs 20 times more than another that would cost 20 times less and would provide 95% as much before the technical fault occurs?

[eronald]

The problem with XF is not its design... It is that it excludes from using it anybody but one that buys an IQ back with it... It is a "closed" system aimed to trap people in a forced path... Nothing else wrong with it, but what is wrong with it, is fatal... No real photographer will turn into a P1 funboy because P1 wishes to trap him as being their ever customer... same mistake as Hasselblad did back then... same exact fatal mistake...

The XF is a decent camera, basically the same thing as the LEAF Afi, except it was made by Mamiya, and can take only *IQ* backs. It competes decently with Hassy and Pentax, on features, not price. It's chief purpose is to kill the P+ backs which are out there, like the P45+ and the P65+, and create upgrade revenue for Phase.

Edmund

[Theodoros]

 But, I have been shooting for 50 years and I had only one camera failing of the 20-30 I had in that time and that was a Minolta XD-7.

If it can happen to somebody... it's not the general rule...