Hp Z3200 ink not drying on InkPress paper

[exposestudios]

Hello,

I recently did an overhaul on both my z3100 and z3200 ps 44" printers, changing the belts and carriages. I was able to perform the necessary calibrations afterwards and the printers seemed to run fine.

I noticed the colours were off so I created a custom paper profile for the Inkpress Lustre paper we typically use. I quickly noticed that the ink rubs off the prints I made quite easily with the new profile.

The setting I used were as follows:

Photo paper- generic photo gl/satin
Thickness - Normal
GE-On
Default ink and gloss enhancer levels.

The Inkpress Lustre is a 240 gsm, 10.4 mil paper. Could anyone advise me on what settings to use to create a custom profile that will prevent the ink from rubbing off so easily?

I've run the printers for a few years with the Inkpress paper using the built in generic profile without any such issues as I'm having now. However, the colour accuracy has drifted so I definitely need a custom profile.

I appreciate any advice.   

[Ernst Dinkla]

Hello,

I recently did an overhaul on both my z3100 and z3200 ps 44" printers, changing the belts and carriages. I was able to perform the necessary calibrations afterwards and the printers seemed to run fine.

I noticed the colours were off so I created a custom paper profile for the Inkpress Lustre paper we typically use. I quickly noticed that the ink rubs off the prints I made quite easily with the new profile.

The setting I used were as follows:

Photo paper- generic photo gl/satin
Thickness - Normal
GE-On
Default ink and gloss enhancer levels.

The Inkpress Lustre is a 240 gsm, 10.4 mil paper. Could anyone advise me on what settings to use to create a custom profile that will prevent the ink from rubbing off so easily?

I've run the printers for a few years with the Inkpress paper using the built in generic profile without any such issues as I'm having now. However, the colour accuracy has drifted so I definitely need a custom profile.

I appreciate any advice.

No chance Inkpress changed their sourcing of the paper?

This seems odd. Did your printer deliver a normal calibration target print? Compared it to older calibration target prints?  If there is a lot of ink applied it is in the calibration print that you have to make before you can create a profile target + profile. With ink running off the paper coating I doubt your calibration target would read properly and the same for the profile creation target. That part however is done without the normal driver involved so I question whether the driver is doing its job correctly. Any slider setting in  the driver's Advanced Color spoiling the party? And without offence meant; sheets or rolls? the backside of RC paper with its polyethylene coating is giving a bad bond to almost anything in this world. The back surface differs I see in the sample I have here but not that much. Dual profiling usually would cut more on ink laid down so I do not see that as the guilty party.

Carriage replaced too.... If the spectrometer sensor + LED has an issue then it surprises me you could get through the calibration and profiling stages. Sure the spectrometer check after belt replacement has a bug so you can not use it but anybody gone that route had no problems afterwards as far as I know. Pure speculation here but you may have to clean the spectrometer optics and calibration spot if the spectrometer readings give a too low measurement for inks laid down in the targets. If not worse; a bad spectrometer part.  I do not know whether any cable connection could give a similar fault but I doubt it, it will be digital data fast after the optics and broken connections would sure give an error warning.



Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[exposestudios]

Hi Ernst,

Thanks for the insight and quick aid.

I'm using roll paper for all my work. The colour calibration prints are great and the ink doesn't just rub off the initial calibration sheet. That's what puzzles me. Both printers print identical calibration sheets and the ink has the standard feel and durability. However, both printers produce prints that are accurate in colour and density but the ink rubs off easily.

When I reinstalled the carriages I set the rear bushing/wedge to high as I read that papers in the 250gsm range may require a higher carriage. I'm thinking I made a mistake here and maybe calibrating in the high position is the problem. Is there anything to this theory?

I've been searching all over for reference material as to how the carriage moves up and down vertically. Is it automated or is it simply done by removing the right cover and sliding the plastic switch from low to high?

[Ernst Dinkla]

Hi Ernst,

Thanks for the insight and quick aid.

I'm using roll paper for all my work. The colour calibration prints are great and the ink doesn't just rub off the initial calibration sheet. That's what puzzles me. Both printers print identical calibration sheets and the ink has the standard feel and durability. However, both printers produce prints that are accurate in colour and density but the ink rubs off easily.

When I reinstalled the carriages I set the rear bushing/wedge to high as I read that papers in the 250gsm range may require a higher carriage. I'm thinking I made a mistake here and maybe calibrating in the high position is the problem. Is there anything to this theory?

I've been searching all over for reference material as to how the carriage moves up and down vertically. Is it automated or is it simply done by removing the right cover and sliding the plastic switch from low to high?

The way you describe it makes it even stranger. Please check another roll, preferably with another batch number. Any changes in shop climate/humidity? I doubt the height difference could influence the curing of the ink. I doubt that difference would influence calibration and profiling either that much that the ink layer laid down is too high.  The carriage height is automatically adjusted between HP OEM media presets if their weight differs enough. There is an actuator that is pushed by a magnetic coil and the movement of the carriage then slides the wedge in or out. If you remove the right side cover again and take out that lighter grey plastic insert at the top and leave it out when you put the cover back you can see whether the actuator does work between media preset settings/media loading. Bond versus fine art paper. I had some issues with that actuator, connector did not work correctly so I checked it that way. You can push that grey part in again later on but make sure the back side is towards the back side of the printer. Ink drying time changes made in the media presets? Same dpi printer quality settings as before?


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[Mark Lindquist]

Hello,

I recently did an overhaul on both my z3100 and z3200 ps 44" printers, changing the belts and carriages. I was able to perform the necessary calibrations afterwards and the printers seemed to run fine.

I noticed the colours were off so I created a custom paper profile for the Inkpress Lustre paper we typically use. I quickly noticed that the ink rubs off the prints I made quite easily with the new profile.

The setting I used were as follows:

Photo paper- generic photo gl/satin
Thickness - Normal
GE-On
Default ink and gloss enhancer levels.

The Inkpress Lustre is a 240 gsm, 10.4 mil paper. Could anyone advise me on what settings to use to create a custom profile that will prevent the ink from rubbing off so easily?

I've run the printers for a few years with the Inkpress paper using the built in generic profile without any such issues as I'm having now. However, the colour accuracy has drifted so I definitely need a custom profile.

I appreciate any advice.

According to the Inkpress website, they do specify using Photo Semi-Gloss/Satin - no ICC profile for HP Z3100.

Have you tried simply printing normally doing a test using Photo Semi-Gloss/Satin Paper less ink?
(Found under Photo Paper in the Paper Preset Menu.)

I certainly wouldn't be messing with the shims with the printer for this paper.  I suggest, in addition to what Ernst recommends, (after replacing the shims to the normal position) trying this paper preset first, then if you are successful, make a custom profile based on this preset and if necessary limit the ink more under "Change Printing "Properties".

I'm not quite sure what the deal is that you're having with too much ink, but I suspect it has a lot to do with having set the bushing wedge to high as you discussed.  I believe that is your problem, mainly.  The printer should handle that thickness, normally, especially by doing an Advance Paper Calibration (Console Menu Maintenance).

Mark

[Mark Lindquist]

So if I was doing this, I would make sure the wedges are at normal height first.

I'd calibrate the paper normally, then immediately do an advance paper calibration, then a nozzle cleaning (all nozzles), then print a diagnostic image.  Thoroughly study the image chart as well as the paper advance calibration chart and make sure all the printheads are clear and firing correctly.  Pull a suspect printhead and do a "blot test" to check it.

Then print based on whatever preset you choose.

If successful, make a new profile based on less ink, and limit ink somewhat.

Run a new calibration, first, then print.

Back to basics.

Don't forget to plug and unplug the printer doing restarts a few times.

Paper advance calibration should take care of a lot of the problems.

FWIW / YMMV

Mark

EDIT:

I happen to have an old box of Inkpress Duo Luster which is 210 GSM (not 240).

I loaded the paper and did a paper calibration based on Semi-Gloss/Satin Paper less ink.

It loaded and calibrated just fine.  Now here is the interesting thing:

Immediately after calibrating the paper, I tried wiping it with a soft cloth.  Light wipes, nothing.  It was as though the ink seemed fully dry.  Then more aggressive wiping and the ink began to come off in the grays, the blacks and the reds.  But it came off with some scrubbing, only.

So for what it's worth, that's a test for you that you should be able to replicate with your printer.

Again, I really don't think 240 gsm is too thick for the printer in its normal paper handling capacity.

Mark

[exposestudios]

Firstly, thank you Mark and Ernst for your generous help. Its good to bounce ideas back and forth especially with experienced people like yourselves.

We started using Inkpress back in 2009 and we always used the generic built in paper preset as recommended by Inkpress (photo gl/st). I never really had a drying problem before or maybe I wasn't looking for it hard enough. At any rate, our colours shifted late last year and the shift was enough for me to investigate custom profiles. Before going that route we were forced to replace belts and carriages for number of error codes.

After getting back up and running did we go after the colour issue. I tried basing the custom profile on the following paper types:
-Hp Premium Gloss
-Hp Premium satin
-Generic Lustre less ink
-Generic gloss/satin

The results were the same every time. The colour accuracy and density were bang on but as you say Mark, with a bit more rubbing your right down to the paper and the initial scuff resistance isn't there.
However, prints that were made last week have since cured much better so I guess the drying time has increased significantly from the norm.

It did occur to me that our building environment has been colder in recent weeks but by mid day we're around 23C so I can't see that being the cause.

The prints are sharp, great colour, great density and I don't see any obvious signs of banding, so how would a paper advance calibration help.

I forgot to mention, the carriage wedge lever was replaced back to "L" before the these tests were carried out. As Ernst indicated the actuator readjusted the position based on the paper type I selected.

I'm puzzled. I guess its time for a hair dryer like the RA4 days.

[Mark Lindquist]

Is there a possibility that the paper manufacturing has changed?  Hp has had HP Matte Litho-realistic paper for ages, and just last year they changed it - apparently a different  manufacturer.  Everything went out the window for me.  Couldn't get my profiles to work and the paper has buckling issues.  Never the same as the old paper because it just wasn't the old paper.

Obviously it can't be outdated inks or you would have mentioned that.  Can't be outdated printheads because you would have put brand new ones in when you rebuilt the machines.

Color is on, and accurate.  Have you tried a different print setting?

Use more passes and not maximum detail?  Or vice versa, max detail without more passes?

It can make a huge difference.  I had a terrible issue with inks once and changed my settings and voila, it worked.

Re: the Paper Advance Calibration - you know, over the years, we develop tricks that we hear or try and if it works, it just works.  The Paper Advance Calibration after running through the diagnostics seems to work like magic when changing papers.
I know HP discusses it in relation to banding, but I believe it does a whole lot more.  Just as unplugging and replugging the printer works some crazy magic and HP themselves often recommend it, PAC is something that gets the printer "reset" and back to the basics, running right.

Just my experience - I would try it and see if doing that and choosing a maximum detail without more passes does make any difference.  Yours seems like it should be easy enough to troubleshoot, but it's just not that easy apparently.

I just advocate trying different approaches until stumbling, methodically upon the right fix or right combination of fixes.  That's why I document my progress and make notes, so as not to duplicate efforts.

Always, I find that going back to initial remedial steps sometimes clears even difficult problems unless there are mechanical failures or electrical issues.

If you try my suggestions, some one thing might change, and could make a difference.  If not, then back to the drawing board.

I think I explained the sequence which has often worked for me.  My experience about the printer resetting itself by using this sequence is grounded in HP's literature and my own personal experience.

I offer it in the spirit of really trying to help you solve this issue without reverting to an outside fix such as using a hair dryer.

I believe there is a fix, maybe we just haven't hit upon it yet.

Good luck, anyway,

Mark

[exposestudios]

Thank you very much Mark, I truly appreciate the effort and insight.

Iv'e run through my paper stock and I'm going to mull over my choices. I'm considering using Kodak Pro lustre gsm 255, if I can find a reasonably priced supplier. If not I might try the Canon Oce 10ml satin.

Either way, when I get some paper in I'll give your methodology a go and I'll share my results for the greater good.

Cheers,
Dan

[Mark Lindquist]

Not sure what you're using it for, but have a look at this:

Kodak at Lexjet

It has a "layflat" engineered design that I have found to be excellent for certain things. 

Excellent D-Max -nice surface, all around excellent product, but probably has OBA's - not sure.

Mark

EDIT:  They also have Luster there:

Kodak Luster

If this is what you're thinking of using, I would say you're on the right track - I really like it for certain things.  The "lay flat" technology is a real time saver.