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Author Topic: Lens profiles for old cameras  (Read 2189 times)

Rhossydd

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Lens profiles for old cameras
« on: February 15, 2016, 12:04:51 pm »

I'm just trying to work with some old images taken with a Canon 10D with 17-40mm lens, but LR doesn't seem to have any lens profiles for this camera.
I sold the camera many years ago now, so making a custom lens profile isn't an easy option with the exact same combination.
There's also no downloadable profiles for this combination from Adobe's site that I could find.

Delving more into this leaves a few questions;

Are lens profiles resolution dependant ? ie would a profile for any APS-C sensored camera with that lens be suitable ? eg 30D, 40D, 50D, 7D etc.
If the answer is no, would I be right to assume I could profile the lens with a different APS-C body, then edit the file (it's easy looking XML) to tell it a different body ?


Anyone else been here before ?
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Redcrown

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Re: Lens profiles for old cameras
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2016, 03:20:03 pm »

No personal experience making lens profiles, or hacking profiles for one body+lens combo to work on some other combo. But I recall a long and detailed thread from the past. Can't remember where or when that was. I just rememebr that Eric Chan was participating.

The lesson was that lens profiles (for Adobe softwre) are definitely resolution dependent. The lens profile basically tells the software to move a pixel from coordinates X,Y to new coordinates X1, Y1. The distance the pixel moves is dependent on BOTH the location where it falls in the image AND the size of the image in total pixels.

A pixel in the center of the image moves very little or not at all. A pixel closer to the edge of the image moves a lot. This is easy to understand. We can see it in an un-adjusted wide-angle image. Distortion is greater toward the edges, and greatest toward the corners.

But consider two different sensors with identical physical sizes but significantly different pixel counts. For example, assume one is 1,000 pixels wide and the other is 2,000 pixels wide. On the lower pixel density sensor, a pixel at coordinates X,Y has to move 10 pixels up and 10 pixels to the right to arrive at the new coordinates X1,Y1.

On the sensor with greater pixel density, the same pixel would have to move twice as far to arrive at the same X1,Y1 coordinates.

I remember that, in that thread, someone (not Eric) pointed out that the Adobe Lens profiling software is simply not smart enough to map the absolute X,Y lens coordinates to the relative sensor pixel coordinates. That's why Adobe lens profiles are always constricted to a lens+body pair. That author was praising some other software (DXO, C1, ??) that was able to do such mapping, so that a single profile for a given lens could be used for any camera body.
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Rhossydd

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Re: Lens profiles for old cameras
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2016, 06:00:43 pm »

The lesson was that lens profiles (for Adobe softwre) are definitely resolution dependent. The lens profile basically tells the software to move a pixel from coordinates X,Y to new coordinates X1, Y1. The distance the pixel moves is dependent on BOTH the location where it falls in the image AND the size of the image in total pixels...../cut/....I remember that, in that thread, someone (not Eric) pointed out that the Adobe Lens profiling software is simply not smart enough to map the absolute X,Y lens coordinates to the relative sensor pixel coordinates. That's why Adobe lens profiles are always constricted to a lens+body pair. That author was praising some other software (DXO, C1, ??) that was able to do such mapping, so that a single profile for a given lens could be used for any camera body.
Interesting.
I can't see how it can be resolution dependant though. Firstly to remap every individual pixel location would require a huge amount of data that simply isn't there. I've been looking at one Adobe lens profile (1Dii + 17-40) it's only 18kb long with just 220 line of XML coding, a fair chunk of that is just housekeeping data too. A custom lens profile is even smaller at 85 lines and 5kb.
When I look into the XML data that constructs the profile, it appears to give an amount of correction related to a relative, not absolute point. As a simplification, corrections are something like +3.2 distortion with a centre at .49 across the frame.
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Rhossydd

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Re: Lens profiles for old cameras
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2016, 03:48:12 am »

Has no one else got any further insights or suggestions for this problem ?
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AFairley

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Re: Lens profiles for old cameras
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2016, 11:31:31 am »

Has no one else got any further insights or suggestions for this problem ?

Well I think I had read somewhere that the profiles were sensor crop dependent, but not pixel count dependent within the same sensor crop, but I can't remember where, or how authoritative I considered the speaker.  To resolve the question, I would start by reading the PDFs that Adobe supplies along with the profile creation software, and post the question on Adobe's user forum specific to the lens profile creator.
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Rhossydd

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Re: Lens profiles for old cameras
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2016, 12:02:04 pm »

I would start by reading the PDFs that Adobe supplies along with the profile creation software
Yes, did that before asking here. All the documentation refers to creating new profiles and how to use the software. Nothing about the structure of the profile or how to hack it for another camera/lens, which is really no surprise at all.
Quote
post the question on Adobe's user forum specific to the lens profile creator.
There isn't one. Asking in other sections is likely to lost in the forum noise about it's own topic. I doubt if anyone really cares at Adobe about an issue like this.

Having had a hack it seems possible to rewrite the code easily enough and it appears to work, but it would be nice know if the correction being applied is correct.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 12:05:12 pm by Rhossydd »
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AFairley

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Re: Lens profiles for old cameras
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2016, 09:05:51 pm »

I thought there is one, but I just looked and cannot find it.  I do remember posting a question about the lens profile creator and having it answered by no less that Eric Chan.  However, looking in my posting history in my profile, I don't see the post or the group, so who knows?  You might as well try a post in the Photoshop or Lightroom forums, it might work, or PM madman had in these forums.  Sorry I can't help more, but please update this thread if you get more information.
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Costas

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Re: Lens profiles for old cameras
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2016, 04:17:51 am »

Well I think I had read somewhere that the profiles were sensor crop dependent, but not pixel count dependent within the same sensor crop, but I can't remember where, or how authoritative I considered the speaker.  To resolve the question, I would start by reading the PDFs that Adobe supplies along with the profile creation software, and post the question on Adobe's user forum specific to the lens profile creator.

The quote below from an old thread might be relevant to this

The actual camera isn't relative...just the sensor crop size. As far as the lens profile is concerned, the 5D II and 1Ds MII are the same size sensor. The camera name in the profile is simply informational related to what camera the lens was tested on but will have no impact on it's use.
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Rhossydd

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Re: Lens profiles for old cameras
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2016, 04:42:39 am »

From Schewe;
The actual camera isn't relative...just the sensor crop size. As far as the lens profile is concerned, the 5D II and 1Ds MII are the same size sensor. The camera name in the profile is simply informational related to what camera the lens was tested on but will have no impact on it's use.
That's what I would expect to be the case, but the profile does contain information about the exact pixel dimensions of the sensor in addition to it's crop factor.
That may be superfluous information that isn't used or might be used to confirm that the profile is correct for that data set.
I don't really see why they'd need to know any details about the sensor size and crop factor if, as seems to be the case, that the corrections are relatives, not absolutes.
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