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Author Topic: Switching from E-M1 to A7?  (Read 11331 times)

Dan Wells

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Re: Switching from E-M1 to A7?
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2016, 11:09:24 pm »

Another aspect to consider when picking a system is accessories other than lenses (if you use any). Canon and Nikon SLRs have every flash, remote, extension tube, bellows or any other accessory you might possibly want, including stuff made for very specialized applications. Especially Nikon has kept the same basic lens mount for more than half a century, so if you want a gizmo to hook a Nikon up to essentially anything you might want to attach a camera to (ironically, other than a wrong-mount lens, due to Nikon's deep flange distance) it probably exists. Canon's selection is almost, but not quite, as deep. Remote triggers can be more expensive for the locking sockets on these cameras than they are for the headphone jacks and USB ports everyone else favors (although there are now cheap knock-offs).

Every other system has its own mix of what is and isn't available. Some are fairly comprehensive, while others have glaring omissions. It's not necessarily related to how good the lens system is, either. I would give Fuji credit for the best lens lineup outside of the two full-frame titans (Micro 43 close behind, but I think Fuji takes it by a bit due to the overall high quality of their line). On the other hand, Fuji seems never to have heard of a flash! They offer two rebranded (and overpriced) cheap Sunpaks, one flash of unknown origin (maybe even actually built by Fuji) that is better built, but radically overpriced for its limited capabilities, and they are supposedly introducing a higher-end flash that nobody has actually seen.

Other than flash, Fuji does a pretty decent, if slightly random job on accessories. Replacement lens hoods are, for some reason, hard to buy, sold as spare parts rather than accessories; but they make their own custom Arca plates of very high quality... I'm not as familiar with the foibles of other makers, since Fuji is where I've ended up settling. As far as I can tell, everybody has their ups, downs and occasional battery shortages!

DSLRs other than the smallest models have a notable advantage over all mirrorless cameras other than the Panasonic GH4 and (oddly) a couple high-end Nikon 1 models. DSLRs use much higher capacity batteries, which are somewhat larger and heavier, but get many more shots than the minuscule mirrorless batteries. Since mirrorless cameras are always in Live View, they may burn through batteries faster as well - I've never had the opportunity to shoot the two with comparably-sized batteries side by side.  Apart from the GH4 (and perhaps those Nikon 1s), don't expect more than 300 shots from any mirrorless battery! Sonys seem to have especially bad battery life and notably slow chargers, but their battery meters are accurate and report percentages . Fuji battery meters are like Subaru gas gauges - from half a tank to empty in the blink of an eye. I own quite a number of batteries and always have a spare - fortunately, they're light.

By the way, I agree that Micro 43 is fine for anything up to 13x19 (easily, on the modern bodies), unless you have a very high dynamic range scene.
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TonyVentourisPhotography

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Re: Switching from E-M1 to A7?
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2016, 11:55:30 am »

It's interesting how many times people throw out the Olympus/Pany is great...until you get to high ISO.  I really wonder how many people making serious images actually venture that high for work they expect to print, sell, display, at any size above 8 inches.  I'de love to see work that was shot and distributed made at 100,000 ISO that wasn't possible before.   (I am not counting family birthdays and friends in restaurants and clubs)

Unless its fast action in dim light or wildlife photography that requires a fast shutter even in lower light...why would non-perfect high ISO be a downside to a camera?  Even then...we have been already shooting that work for years with digital.  The latest sensors from M43 are better than most previous generation cameras (including FF) in that regard still.  Yes, some cameras A7s may shoot even cleaner at 12,000...but does it matter?

Personally i've always cared most about what quality I got at base ISO since that is where I spend the majority of my time.  There isn't a camera out there that I would consider using that isn't decent, and deliverable, up to 6400 ISO.  I know some people might need more... but really?   

In all reality, the camera to choose is the one that not only feels best, but actually liberates you from the tool itself in order to make the images you enjoy.  Doesn't matter what it's specs are if the job gets done if that criteria is met.  At least thats what I think. 
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Tony
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AlterEgo

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Re: Switching from E-M1 to A7?
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2016, 02:12:37 pm »

Apart from the GH4 (and perhaps those Nikon 1s), don't expect more than 300 shots from any mirrorless battery!

I regularly do close to 800-1000 shots with A7R2 and _one_ Sony OEM battery (with FE55/1.8 and AF only, I do not spend time reviewing shots on LCD post factum)... granted people extensively using manual focus (more time with EVF/LV to be on) might get way less shots...
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Telecaster

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Re: Switching from E-M1 to A7?
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2016, 02:20:18 pm »

It's interesting how many times people throw out the Olympus/Pany is great...until you get to high ISO.  I really wonder how many people making serious images actually venture that high for work they expect to print, sell, display, at any size above 8 inches.

In my experience few to none of these "concerns" are about real-world issues. IMO it's not hard to work out what they're actually about…just visit some of DPreview's brand- or format-specific forums and observe.

-Dave-
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TonyVentourisPhotography

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Re: Switching from E-M1 to A7?
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2016, 04:36:16 pm »

Speaking of... I paid a little more attention the the recent "World Press Photo of the Year" winner.  Shot on a 5Dmk2.  I am assuming it was shot with a 24mm F/1.4 based on what was detailed.  Shot at 1/5 sec.  Based on the look of the photo, this was definitely a high ISO shot.  6400 most likely.  Heavy grain and heavy banding are present.   This is "getting the shot."  A faster shutter speed could have been used if he had 400,000 ISO...but that would no longer have conveyed to motion of the child being passed or the sense of moment as he tried to be steady in the middle of the night in this kind of situation.  It would have made a different image. 

Obviously no one cared that this image had horrendous ISO issues going on.  Would it have been better perfectly clean?  I don't know. 
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robcee

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Re: Switching from E-M1 to A7?
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2016, 10:52:19 am »

I love that photo. In cases like that, there's nothing wrong with a little (or a lot) of grunge. It adds to the sense of urgency and danger.

I occasionally go up to ISO 6400 on my EM1. It's great for monochrome. I've even pulled some usable images at 12,800. Maybe not what most would consider usable but it'll do it in a pinch.

I use Live Bulb and Live Comp frequently for shooting long exposures. The EM1 is not a bad camera for astrophotography if you know what you're doing.

Photography is a funny thing. The grass is always greener in another system. Most pros have multiple systems available to them and choose the right tool for the job. Is micro-4/3 going to be the right tool in every situation? No, probably not. If it ticks enough of the boxes for you, you may be happy with it.

I personally did not like the Sony A7R1. I haven't played with the non R version, but some reviews claim it was the better camera of the two in terms of usability. It had a quieter shutter and better AF capabilities than the original R. I found the autofocus system on the A7R1 to be painful. I also still have an RX1 on my shelf but dislike the Sony ergonomics there too.

If you think about making the switch, go rent one for a week and live with it. See what you like, what you don't like. Compare the images. Make some prints! If you think it's better given the trade-offs, go for it.

Dan Wells

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Re: Switching from E-M1 to A7?
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2016, 02:04:20 pm »

I'd also encourage you to rent an X-Pro 2 (in addition to the Sony, not instead of). Mine just came in, and it's an amazingly nice-handling camera. All the controls are nearly perfectly placed, at least to my hand. AF is fast and sure enough that I never notice that it's focusing (like a good DSLR). Weathersealed much better than any Sony, maybe as well as an E-M1. Best lenses out there for ANY system - well, maybe Leica :D). The lens lineup includes a lot of fast lenses that regain some of the bokeh it gives up by not being FF.  Very good, modern 24 MP sensor (yes, it's APS-C, but all the lenses are optimized for APS-C, so the focal lengths and lens size work out). I haven't had a chance to work with the raw files yet - come on, Phase One, update C1 to deal with it... From people who have, it compares pretty darned favorably with 24 MP full-frame cameras (not with "pixel monsters" with a big pixel count advantages).

It DOES have a couple of drawbacks. Probably the most important is that Fuji has never heard of a flash, and has even less idea what one is used for. I just realized that my year and a half old X-T1 still has the hotshoe cover in - I've never put a flash on it! While I primarily shoot landscape, I certainly do the occasional event or other situation when I might want one. They are claiming to be about to release a decent midrange flash unit, but I've seen nothing at all on it since they showed a prototype in January.

The second drawback is that I'd call the EVF "good" to "very good", rather than "great". This is due to the hybrid viewfinder (remember that it has an OPTICAL viewfinder in addition to the EVF). The optical finder is a great addition, especially in low light, but it does mean that the EVF is not quite as big, nor as accurate as the best in cameras that aren't trying to share a single eyepiece between two types of finder. Fuji's own X-T1 has one of the best EVFs around, but it's 16 MP, and probably not enough of an upgrade from an E-M1. There will be an X-T2, which will have a fantastic EVF with the 24 MP sensor (losing the optical finder in the process), but that's not here yet.

The third drawback is that you are already at the top of Fuji's line. The 24 MP X-Trans III sensor is a tremendous upgrade over 16 MP on a much smaller sensor (and at least very close to the A7II in performance, if not better). However, it's also the best sensor that will work with the beautiful Fujinon lenses, and it will be years until we see another sensor upgrade. Sony does leave you with a path from the A7II to the A7rII for more performance.

I chose to top out at 24 MP, capable of making 24x36" prints, to get the cameras and handling I liked, plus the very complete and uniformly high quality lens lineup. Everyone makes their choice, and Fuji may not be everyone's cup of tea, especially if you need flash or 42 MP. Fuji IS a very realistic choice at 24 MP, arguably the best choice out there now at that resolution level when you take everything into account. Anything full-frame with the same resolution will be much larger and heavier, and nothing else APS-C will come close for lenses. Very worth looking at alongside the intermediate-resolution Sonys (or anything else other than 36+MP pixel monsters).
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Jim Pascoe

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Re: Switching from E-M1 to A7?
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2016, 09:25:04 am »

I have a Canon 5DSr and many of Canon's best lenses (nothing above 200mm though), and I have an Olympus EM-1 with their Pro lenses.  The Canon is better in just about every department - except I cannot shoot video with an LCD - I just like using the built in EVF on the Olympus.

But.  The Olympus is a beautiful little camera and the lenses are so light and compact.  It will do the job professionally and for fun most of the time perfectly adequately - and that is the point no?  Most of the time the quality of my pictures is limited mainly by my skill and imagination, not what camera I have.

So full-frame will absolutely not make your pictures 'better'.  But in absolute terms full-frame will produce a better quality file - just that normally the difference will not matter.  I've used 'full-frame' for about 11 years or so now.

Below is a picture I took at the World Track Cycling championships in London last weekend - with an EM-1 and the wide end of the 40-150mm 2.8 lens.  ISO 1600, 1000th sec, f3.2.  We had to walk miles to get to the track and I'm glad I was not lugging my Canon gear.....

Edit - for our American friends I have added a picture of Sarah Hammer.

Jim
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AFairley

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Re: Switching from E-M1 to A7?
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2016, 11:39:13 am »

To comment on Dan's post, I am a happy user of the Fuji X-E2 (hoping for a 24MP X-E3), go back and forth between it and the D800, but Fujis don't have IBIS, so if you find yourself handholding at marginal shutter speeds with primes that could be an issue
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MikeWms

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Re: Switching from E-M1 to A7?
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2016, 11:58:01 pm »

If you consider full frame to be the mountain top, then I have been to the mountain top and back down the other side. I owned and used the original Canon 5D, with its then glorious 12 megapixels. That was a long time and many technological advances ago. I have since moved on from FF and am happily using the Fuji and Olympus systems. I am enjoying photography more with the smaller equipment, and I can truthfully say I'm making better images. Why?  I'm shooting more. The larger heavier Canon gear ended up staying home on the shelf all too often. Great cameras on the shelf do not capture great images. In the end it's much more about what is in front of the lens, than what size the sensor is in the body behind the lens. Enjoy whatever you shoot with, but get out there and shoot.
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Dan Wells

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Re: Switching from E-M1 to A7?
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2016, 02:06:01 am »

No, Fujis don't have IBIS (and I sometimes wish they did), but almost all of the zooms have very good lens-based stabilization (the notable exception is the otherwise lovely 16-55 f2.8), and all but one or two of the primes are f2 or faster. The two cases where the lack of IBIS is most noticeable are the aforementioned 16-55 (one reason I don't have one) and if you are shooting a prime and want to close down the aperture for DOF reasons. On the other hand, some of the lenses have truly remarkable lens-based stabilization - the 100-400 deserves special mention!
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AlterEgo

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Re: Switching from E-M1 to A7?
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2016, 02:39:51 am »

but Fujis don't have IBIS
neither they have EFCS
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DanLehman

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Re: Switching from E-M1 to A7?
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2016, 02:23:04 am »

About a half a year ago I made the decision to switch from my Canon 7D to an E-M1 with Pro lenses (thanks, in part, to advice from members of this forum).

However, the last week or so I’ve had full frame on my mind.
...
After almost seven months of use, I can honestly say I’m very happy with the great IQ I’m getting from my MFT … but I can’t help wondering if there’s not something out there that can help me create even better images.

... I could get a very similarly-sized system through the A7 with 24-70 F4 and 70-200 F4.

3. ... While I don’t currently shoot professionally, there’s definitely a possibility I’d like to shoot weddings, headshots, or editorial assignments in the future.
...

... ) pray Oly releases a full frame system (because I would totally be down for that).

As a prior poster asked --this is key--, "Define *better*" !!
You sound as though "full-frame" has an intoxicating effect.
(And I too share the Med.Format-&-larger user's puzzlement at what's so "full" about it!  ;D )

You indicate some *maybe* aspect to what you might shoot professionally in the future; what tickles your fancy currently?

I note the supposed equivalence of 35mm 24-70/4 & 70-200/4,
which suggests that you currently have Oly's 12-40/2.8 & 40-150/2.8
--though that gives greater speed & reach, similar DoF.
For lighter weight, the Pany 35-100/2.8 is great
(shorter on avg. but for lens hood than the 12-40 & lighter).

Maybe one of the newer Oly bodies would make a good
complement to your E-M1 --E-M10ii or Pen F ?

--dl*
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TonyVentourisPhotography

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Re: Switching from E-M1 to A7?
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2016, 12:23:50 pm »

Also...the word on shooting "professionally in the future"...

If you charge correctly based on your actual cost of doing business...you don't even need to own equipment to shoot.  Rental is not that expensive, and makes shooting different scenarios you encounter when creating client work easier to manage.  Own what you love and shoot with for you...let the clients pay for equipment used to make their images.  Otherwise you can end up going down a very expensive reinvestment tunnel when beginning to shoot pro or not making any actual money due to "what you need" for a shoot that stakes just increased on because of money and a contract. 

Every click of the shutter costs money.  Even if its personal.  In film days we saw it literally with development costs, film costs, scanning, etc...  Now it's an upfront cost and there are repair costs.  Every click of the shutter costs money. 

And on that note... I actually switched from shooting full frame canon systems for clients to medium format.  Then I went back down to M43.  I shoot 70% of my work M43 for clients, and the remaining 30% as medium format.  "36mm" sensor size means nothing in terms of shooting pro.  It comes down to needs.  E-M1 functionality serves my needs better than anything else ever did.
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Tony
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DanLehman

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Re: Switching from E-M1 to A7?
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2016, 03:19:57 pm »

A problem with which-system deliberations these days --a "good problem" one might suggest-- is that there are many good systems.

The OP writes "getting duped", and re that it should be suggested that he at least bide his time until it's known what the impending upgrade to the Oly E-M1 is --although an increase in resolution to 20mpx is rumored and hoped-for (as though 16 is really a limiting factor), maybe there will be a significant improvement to AF & other functions that would make one feel duped if just having jumped to "full frame" Sony!  Part of the biding one's time might include renting the considered FF body & lens(es).

I'll note that one professional often posting to these forums --aka "BCooter", of Russell-Rutherford-- has often opined his preference for E-M5 (Sony's 16mpx) IQ vs. E-M1 (by "10%") & 1DX (!) and relatively recently remarked at the Canon's remarkable performance in rough-&-tumble shooting which made tough demands on camera ruggedness and super AF ability.  --but with "only" 18mpx.  What if the E-M1 upgrade took a good step in upping its AF performance?

(Btw, take a gander at the current set of images spilling down this front page of www.mu-43.com; what would be "better" w/<some_other_camera>?  (Those motorcycle shots speak well for the 40-150/2.8, and that B&W abstract w/the abseiler makes my day!) )

--dl*
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