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Author Topic: Gravitational Waves  (Read 22398 times)

Telecaster

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2016, 04:08:09 pm »

John Galt would probably have helped her across the street, I suspect.  But he'd then have to "talk" for 100 pages to explain why it fit his world-view.   ;D

This is why I've never managed a careful reading of the book.  ;)  But, as does happen in fiction, characters can escape the writer's grasp and take on their own lives. Or express things from the writer's subconscious that are normally squelched by the cerebral cortex.

-Dave-
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Torbjörn Tapani

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2016, 08:44:54 pm »

Flawed logic and thinking? If something that is wasteful costs less than an illegal war then it doesn't justify the cost? What is logical is that BOTH are wrong and the money spent on more useful projects. However the USA doesn't see it that way. :(
You are saying basic science is done
 We don't need to know anymore than we do. The rest is applied science or engineering from here on out. I am at a loss for words.

My opinion is government should absolutely fund basic science.
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stamper

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2016, 04:04:16 am »

You are saying basic science is done
 We don't need to know anymore than we do. The rest is applied science or engineering from here on out. I am at a loss for words.

My opinion is government should absolutely fund basic science.

No I am not saying......You are saying basic science is done.....

What I am saying that there are vanity projects such as gravitational waves and sending people to Mars which imo is a waste of precious resources and money as well as people's talents. There are a lot of projects that are underfunded on earth that could be addressed better. Nothing against science.... :(

Rob C

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2016, 04:43:36 am »

You are saying basic science is done
 We don't need to know anymore than we do. The rest is applied science or engineering from here on out. I am at a loss for words.

My opinion is government should absolutely fund basic science.


At the very least, they should in schools.

But that presupposes an interest in it from the wider public. Seems the problem there is that maths and science are a dwindling interest because they are more challenging than other soft routes to hoped-for employment or dream fulfilment.

But, there are many directions in which pubic funding for science could be aimed, and science fiction isn't one of those I think serious beyond its impact on providing the rocket scientists with a healthy wallet.

For my bucks, I'd rather see a far wider interest from governments in providing some sort of progress in winter heating systems, for example, which run up horrific bills for many old people - such as myself - and I'm supposed to be living in a place where winters don't exist. In the minds of those who have never wintered here. The science apparently exists with solar panels, and I'd imagine enough energy would be stored from the sunny winter days to make up for the just-above-freezing nights (which often do dip well below). Replying that one could always buy and have them installed is just being glib: that requires capital expenditure that many can't meet at the time in their llves when cold can equate with death. Further, in the apartment situation, such expenses are even more difficult to agree because of different ownerships with different agendas: summer birds don't give a fuck about winter residents; there are problems enough agreeing security doors at the common entrances. These problems can only be resolved by governmental regulations governing construction laws, so that when a place is bought it comes with those things built into the system. When you are earning enough to buy property you can afford the relatively tiny percentage it costs extra to have heating systems, but when you retire the money ain't often there.

Medicine. Yes, some states help there, but I think it should be a part of everyone's expectations that they will not die because they can't afford the latest help. Private investment in medicine development is one thing, but so is governmental investment in it- with some degree of governmental control over how that investment is handled. I don't want to see such public funds end up as director bonuses. Indeed, I think the entire concept of the bonus stinks: all people should be expected to do their best every day, as a matter of course: what the hell else are their salaries for? For paying part-attention to work, and spending the rest of the working day on Facebook, or out to lunch? I never expected my quotation for something to be overpaid because the job turned out well: it was always supposed to do exactly that!

Transport. How about a public system that works, that doesn't stop because it's the wrong kind of leaves or snow on the tracks?

Hell, there's no end to the earthly things that need fixed; we don't need to spend billions on things that will never mean anything to anyone in practical terms. Time enough for fantasy when reality is fixed. We already have the satellites to guide us home; how about the science to ensure we do that journey safely? Who, in their right mind, gives a shit what the other side of the Moon looks like?

Rob C
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 04:46:53 am by Rob C »
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Telecaster

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2016, 03:03:07 pm »

The point usually missed when it comes to public funding of science is that the overall return—measured in knowledge gained, initial jobs created, technological offshoots developed that lead to new companies & more jobs in addition to the intrinsic usefulness & benefits (and, yes, sometimes frivolities) of the tech, not to mention the economic & cultural benefits of having an innovative spirit in play—more than justifies the investment. But we can't know in advance which projects will pan out & which won't, so we need to be capable of accepting that some won't without losing long-term focus. The zero-sum game road—we can only do this or only that—ends in economic & cultural stagnation.

Not that I expect any of this to register with folks who object to the funding. Choosing not to see something eventually results in not being able to see it.

-Dave-
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Rob C

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2016, 03:57:48 am »

The zero-sum game road—we can only do this or only that—ends in economic & cultural stagnation.


-Dave-


But that's the reality: there is only so much money available for governmental spending; otherwise, all political demands from all corners could be met and every party be the same as every other one: fairy godmothers.

Life is about priorities: you must do the more important tasks first, and that first is usually thought to be guaranteeing decent survival, not buying a fanciful Ferarri.

"Choosing not to see something eventually results in not being able to see it."

My thought, exactly.

Rob C

stamper

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2016, 04:07:24 am »

The point usually missed when it comes to public funding of science is that the overall return—measured in knowledge gained, initial jobs created, technological offshoots developed that lead to new companies & more jobs in addition to the intrinsic usefulness & benefits (and, yes, sometimes frivolities) of the tech, not to mention the economic & cultural benefits of having an innovative spirit in play—more than justifies the investment. But we can't know in advance which projects will pan out & which won't, so we need to be capable of accepting that some won't without losing long-term focus. The zero-sum game road—we can only do this or only that—ends in economic & cultural stagnation.

Not that I expect any of this to register with folks who object to the funding. Choosing not to see something eventually results in not being able to see it.

-Dave-

I will give you the benefit of the doubt. You earlier stated that you didn't want to continue the discussion.

quote

I'm not gonna continue arguing the point. LIGO exists and I'm glad it does.

-Dave-

unquote

but my goodness you are? You are on the losing side of the argument but won't give in. All of the benefits of science can be achieved without exploring outer space. How hard is that to grasp? :(

Torbjörn Tapani

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2016, 10:56:50 am »

Hell, there's no end to the earthly things that need fixed; we don't need to spend billions on things that will never mean anything to anyone in practical terms. Time enough for fantasy when reality is fixed. We already have the satellites to guide us home; how about the science to ensure we do that journey safely? Who, in their right mind, gives a shit what the other side of the Moon looks like?

Rob C

This is my point exactly. Getting a car to navigate safely is something for the Googles and Apples of the world. But figuring out general relativety and doing the experiments is basic science. Who knew a hundred years ago we would need relativity to compensate for the motion of satellites in order for GPS to work. And getting to the other side of the moon only takes Newtonian physics and private corporations like Space X could do it. No need for Nasa to go back.

Stamper. I completelty disagree. We learn about fundamental physics by looking out into space. If we can't observe or do an experiment it is not science. To observe gravitational waves makes it science. Believning Einstein was right without verification is something else.
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2016, 11:16:50 am »

So who decides what subject needs to be investigated/researched? Who decides who gets the merit/money for a project to be funded? We all marvel (I think) at the images and knowledge that the Hubble telescope has provided for decades; perhaps that should have been canned?

Perhaps the great navigators from Portugal (hey, its my country:)), when some folks had the balls and the vision to start sending tiny ships around the globe starting in the early XV century, should have done something else? My country debt problems started then, and continue until today, but who can negate the great scientific advancements of the era?

Should we care that there is water in the Moon and Mars? Or hydrocarbons in Europa? So now we have satellites, we should do nothing more? Once upon a time, orbiting satellites were imagined by the great mind of Arthur Clarke, on (gasp!) science fiction books! Sometimes, one needs to imagine, and dream, before things actually happen and become reality.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2016, 11:35:56 am »


but my goodness you are? You are on the losing side of the argument but won't give in. All of the benefits of science can be achieved without exploring outer space. How hard is that to grasp? :(

You position him on the losing side? That's a trifle arrogant, I'd say.

We've been through all this before, with Galileo among others. The current dollar cost of basic science is negligible in the grand scheme of things, and that's not even considering its long-term spin-off benefits. Using the cost as an argument to not do it is nonsensical.

If you insist on regarding this kind of scientific research as an inefficiency in our culture, something that must be repaired lest we waste more money, then you must also consider all other inefficiencies as well. How can you not, if you want to be taken seriously. I'd be surprised if science made it into the top 500 things we "waste" money on.

And in any case, the money that is funnelled into science is spent on salaries and buying equipment from suppliers, all of which spending IS the economy, the way we measure things in the national income accounts.

And Rob, there is no need to do further research on how to heat homes more cheaply. We all know what to do, it just requires insulation and good workmanship, not research. Although, in fact, there is ongoing research in home construction all the time. (The insulation of the ice and snow walls of an Inuit's igloo can keep the interior temperature 25 degrees Celsius warmer than outside, using the heat of one candle and a couple of human bodies.) We could build houses like that too, but we choose not to, but not because we don't already know how.

At any point in time, you can look at most scientific research, and if you're in that frame of mind you can declare it pointless. It's a silly exercise.
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Rob C

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2016, 02:50:23 pm »

And Rob, there is no need to do further research on how to heat homes more cheaply. We all know what to do, it just requires insulation and good workmanship, not research. Although, in fact, there is ongoing research in home construction all the time. (The insulation of the ice and snow walls of an Inuit's igloo can keep the interior temperature 25 degrees Celsius warmer than outside, using the heat of one candle and a couple of human bodies.) We could build houses like that too, but we choose not to, but not because we don't already know how.

At any point in time, you can look at most scientific research, and if you're in that frame of mind you can declare it pointless. It's a silly exercise.


That's much my point, Robert: the science is already there, but not the will, as I wrote:

"For my bucks, I'd rather see a far wider interest from governments in providing some sort of progress in winter heating systems, for example, which run up horrific bills for many old people - such as myself - and I'm supposed to be living in a place where winters don't exist. In the minds of those who have never wintered here. The science apparently exists with solar panels, and I'd imagine enough energy would be stored from the sunny winter days to make up for the just-above-freezing nights (which often do dip well below). Replying that one could always buy and have them installed is just being glib: that requires capital expenditure that many can't meet at the time in their llves when cold can equate with death. Further, in the apartment situation, such expenses are even more difficult to agree because of different ownerships with different agendas: summer birds don't give a fuck about winter residents; there are problems enough agreeing security doors at the common entrances. These problems can only be resolved by governmental regulations governing construction laws, so that when a place is bought it comes with those things built into the system. When you are earning enough to buy property you can afford the relatively tiny percentage it costs extra to have heating systems, but when you retire the money ain't often there."

And that's where I feel governments should step in and make the bloody architects/builders apply and comply, by law, to better practice. It stretches into illegal building on protected sites (Israel has plenty of external examples to quote in its defence of building where it should not!), of local mayors ending up in jail because of corruption in holiday resorts for granting perm¡ts for, or not preventing, such building - same difference - and the snail-pace of demolitions where such orders are in place, the slowness hoping for different election results to make it all go away... so yeah, enough science is there; it's the application of what we already have that's the problem, and that's human nature, in the shape of greed, at work.

I still think we have more than enough ability/science to make Earth a far better place; if we want to support more, which in general I think we all do, let's pour the pennies available into where it helps people most - starting, say, with medicine and better (read cheaper, too) meds that are not quasi-placebos doing little more than increasing the overall cost of social care.

"And in any case, the money that is funnelled into science is spent on salaries and buying equipment from suppliers, all of which spending IS the economy, the way we measure things in the national income accounts."

Of course, but that doesn't justify pointlesss objectives: if the dosh is going to flow anyhow, at least point it to where it's going to do something positive, not just line pockets and feed egos. And let's not forget: science is a broad definition; my arrows are aimed at the fantasy projects, not the worthwhile, and I think folks generally know the difference.

Rob

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #51 on: February 19, 2016, 03:07:14 pm »

You earlier stated that you didn't want to continue the discussion.

I changed my mind. I'm capable of that.

Time will tell whether curiosity (and its benefits) continues to have a significant role to play in how we structure our cultures and societies. We've had a pretty good run over the past 400+ years. I hope it continues.

-Dave-
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Telecaster

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2016, 04:36:40 pm »

Back on topic, here's a pretty good & concise article at the Forbes website re: Do Gravitational Waves Exhibit Wave-Particle Duality? (Annoying ads again, sadly.)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2016/02/20/ask-ethan-do-gravitational-waves-exhibit-wave-particle-duality

-Dave-
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2016, 10:39:36 am »

I think it is interesting to look back and learn from our successes, mistakes, and prejudices. I am currently reading this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Explain-World-Discovery-Modern-Science/dp/0062346660/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1456241665&sr=1-1&refinements=p_27%3ASteven+Weinberg

Highly recommended. It's easy to say that we "have enough", and should spend money elsewhere. Where would we be today if say, 2000 years ago, there were no people to advance scientific knowledge? If we drop the so-called useless research today, where will we be in 2000 years time?

Rob C

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #54 on: February 23, 2016, 04:09:36 pm »

I think it is interesting to look back and learn from our successes, mistakes, and prejudices. I am currently reading this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Explain-World-Discovery-Modern-Science/dp/0062346660/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1456241665&sr=1-1&refinements=p_27%3ASteven+Weinberg

Highly recommended. It's easy to say that we "have enough", and should spend money elsewhere. Where would we be today if say, 2000 years ago, there were no people to advance scientific knowledge? If we drop the so-called useless research today, where will we be in 2000 years time?


But Paulo, the world today is not the world of two thousand years ago. Time/science has accelerated exponentially. That acceleration ends with the buffers.

Where will we be in two thousand years time? I don't think that we will be anywhere at all. We have already scewed up so much of our environment, probably irreversibly, through mixtures of both greed and ignorance, that sustainability of our species - of any species other than the ants - is not a likely future event. Food production is already starting to be a problem even in Europe: the rains are failing in Spain, Britain is going through a change that promises nothing good, and the US has its own very strange patterns coming home to roost. Nobody can still be unaware of the failure of rain in Africa; where do you imagine those peoples will be forced to try to go?

We ain't seen nuttin' yet; an inner circle of European countries is already closing borders that should be legally wide open... the 'defensive' machine-gunners are not far off. And so far it's just the hurrican that's already developing with politically inspired migration; it will not, cannot be solved with love and open arms. When things get tight, family comes first, well before nation and 'foreign' doesn't stand a bloody chance. Never has.

And none of that takes into account the rise of new pestilences without known cures. Mosquitos, anyone? Yes we have the sciences and we have the money; but we blow it on irrelevant fantasies instead.

Change is coming so fast that for the first time in my life, thanks to a politically mobile (he hopes, I do not) buffoon in England, I am finding myself on the side of both Labour and the Scottish Nationalists. If that can happen, when I delight in my natural place to the right of Genghis Khan, anything can - and will - happen. That's a certainty: the only guarantee Nature offers is change; as we've been through great times, there's only one way left to go. Out.

Rob C

« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 04:15:16 pm by Rob C »
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Isaac

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #55 on: February 23, 2016, 04:31:48 pm »

… there's only one way left to go. Out.

Please stop smothering discussions with off-topic negativity.

This is not your personal blog.
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stamper

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2016, 04:01:28 am »

Please stop smothering discussions with off-topic negativity.

This is not your personal blog.

That is what you are guilty of with this post???

Rob C

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2016, 04:10:22 am »

That is what you are guilty of with this post???

Stamper, it's nothing new: only one guy is ever right and it ain't any one of us. He holds the keys to his kingdom - I don't think anybody wants to steal them.

Rob C

stamper

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #58 on: February 24, 2016, 06:41:35 am »

Stamper, it's nothing new: only one guy is ever right and it ain't any one of us. He holds the keys to his kingdom - I don't think anybody wants to steal them.

Rob C

I noticed recently he called you a bawling infant? It looks like stalking?

GrahamBy

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #59 on: February 24, 2016, 07:59:58 am »

my arrows are aimed at the fantasy projects, not the worthwhile, and I think folks generally know the difference.

The folks often disagree however.

I've worked in medical (cancer) genetics and gravitation, although never in the big science projects associated with the former. "Folks" probably think the former is more important. From the inside, I see a huge amount of money wasted on unfeasible projects because of equally huge egos, who can't stomach to be told that laws of mathematics and logic mean they can't do waht they are spending money to try to do. The net gain from the billions spent on various genome sequencing projects has been important, but actually very modest in extent. Mostly, we've learnt that what people had insisted was true was not (tumours are not homogeneous clones, they don't march inexorably on but can be stopped by the immune system, and that our healthy tissue is itself a mosaic of diffent genotypes, many of which were supposed to be very unhealthy). And please don't say "epigenetics" at this point, it's just another round of massive hype and self-delusion... with some interesting facts buried underneath.

Worth remembering that this internet thingy was a by-product of CERN, and that the whole thing is much cheaper than a football world-cup (even without using border-line slave labour and a huge worker mortality rate). certainly cheaper than a moderate size proxy way in the middle-east.

But finally, science is like art. Some of it is maybe more expensive than is reasonable... but it's worth doing, imho.
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