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Author Topic: Sony sensor division 2015 financial results  (Read 3534 times)

Theodoros

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Sony sensor division 2015 financial results
« on: February 10, 2016, 11:28:12 am »

http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.gr/2016/01/sony-reports-singnificant-decrease-in.html 

The significant losses could mean that they may revise selling low production sensor units....

« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 07:22:41 pm by Theodoros »
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eronald

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Re: Sony sensor division 015 financial results
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2016, 11:31:32 am »

http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.gr/2016/01/sony-reports-singnificant-decrease-in.html 

The significant losses could mean that they may revise selling low production sensor units....

They had a major production issue during the year, and I think even lost a customer because of that.
Bad year.

Edmund
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Theodoros

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Re: Sony sensor division 015 financial results
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2016, 12:51:23 pm »

They had a major production issue during the year, and I think even lost a customer because of that.
Bad year.

Edmund

They sold one of the sensor production plants back to Toshiba (after buying the sensor division of Toshiba !!!) and Toshiba converts it for other than sensor production purposes... This clearly means that they reduce production... 97M$ losses... "pheeeeew"....
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eronald

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Re: Sony sensor division 015 financial results
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2016, 07:25:17 pm »

Quote
"Last fiscal year, we received larger orders than expected in image sensor business. This cause our ability to supply the market to be constrained, a situation that continued through the beginning of current fiscal year.

Then, in the summer of 2015, we had an issue with our production equipment, which resulted in our having to decline orders from the 13 customers. After we resolved this production issue and after new capacity had just come online orders from our customers started to decline due to softer end-user demand for smartphones.

Further complicating matters were the fact that we supply custom design sensors to some of our major customers, and there is an approximately five-month lead time to manufacture our sensors. As a result, it is difficult to switch our products in line over the other customers quickly. We believe that image sensor business will start to recover from the first quarter of next fiscal year, but we will formulate our business plan based on an assumption that growth of the smartphone market will slow."

They sold one of the sensor production plants back to Toshiba (after buying the sensor division of Toshiba !!!) and Toshiba converts it for other than sensor production purposes... This clearly means that they reduce production... 97M$ losses... "pheeeeew"....
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JV

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Re: Sony sensor division 2015 financial results
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2016, 01:18:52 am »

See also recent loss in mirrorless market share...:
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=107788.0

Might be because of focusing on higher end FF cameras.  Perhaps the A6300 will rectify that.
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Theodoros

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Re: Sony sensor division 2015 financial results
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2016, 05:17:06 pm »

See also recent loss in mirrorless market share...:
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=107788.0

Might be because of focusing on higher end FF cameras.  Perhaps the A6300 will rectify that.

Loss in share of mirror less doesn't mean much... the α7 series is without competition (for the moment), this means that if cheap mirror less sales will increase, the expensive looks like a smaller share... IMO, α7 is "oranges" while "mirrorless" market is "apples"...
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davidgp

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Re: Sony sensor division 2015 financial results
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2016, 02:51:42 pm »

http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.gr/2016/01/sony-reports-singnificant-decrease-in.html 

The significant losses could mean that they may revise selling low production sensor units....

Although Sony is also saying that is selling less cameras units than before, I will careful with the sensor units. Sensors units includes also figures for sensors for mobile phones (their biggest clients), security cameras, video cameras, cars cameras, etc... (take a look at the first picture here: http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/more-doom-and-gloom.html , but as you can see, Sony was already predicting that sensors for photography cameras will decrease... but looks like they failed in all the other predictions).

One of their biggest client of sensors, Apple, had a flat quarter in respect to their iPhone, and also a decreasing quarter selling iPads or iPods, so for me it is not surprise that a mobile phone market that, looks like, it is getting stable, affects the sales of camera sensors.

Anyway, saying that, Sony recognized that is selling less cameras, probably due to less sells of A cameras and E ASP-C cameras.

See also recent loss in mirrorless market share...:
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=107788.0

Might be because of focusing on higher end FF cameras.  Perhaps the A6300 will rectify that.

That share figure is only for Japan, not the rest of the world. Look at the conclusions sections of this article about the presentation of the a6300 in Europe (http://www.mirrorlessons.com/2016/02/15/sony-a6300-review-first-impressions/ ):

Quote
During the press conference, Sony shared some interesting stats concerning the European market. First, Sony’s digital imaging department saw a growth of almost 25% in the last two years.

Sony is number one in the compact/travel camera segment thanks to the RX series with a 33% share. Even more interesting is the full-frame segment where they saw a growth from 13 to 23% in the last year and a half. Furthermore in some countries like Germany and Denmark, they have been number one in sales for the last few months, outperforming Canon and Nikon. It seems that Sony’s aggressive strategy is working. It will be interesting to see if these sales will keep increasing and how the situation is worldwide.

Of course, this is the word of Sony. But Zeiss also reported in an interview (I cann't remember which one) that in Germany, the leader of sales in full-frame cameras is Sony.

I think Sony is doing quite well, I'm not Sony user but I'm considering one for my Canon glass. I will just liked that they would have a more clear strategy like for example Fuji is doing with their X system.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Sony sensor division 2015 financial results
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2016, 02:58:45 pm »

Hi,

I wouldn't deduce to much from a quarterly report. But, I would suggest that Sony's digital cameras are a very small part of the imaging systems market and i would think Sony sells more sensors to Canon and Nikon than to Sony's own imaging division.

But, the camera market is obviously shrinking and there is a lot of competition in the image sensor area.

Best regards
Erik


Although Sony is also saying that is selling less cameras units than before, I will careful with the sensor units. Sensors units includes also figures for sensors for mobile phones (their biggest clients), security cameras, video cameras, cars cameras, etc... (take a look at the first picture here: http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/more-doom-and-gloom.html , but as you can see, Sony was already predicting that sensors for photography cameras will decrease... but looks like they failed in all the other predictions).

One of their biggest client of sensors, Apple, had a flat quarter in respect to their iPhone, and also a decreasing quarter selling iPads or iPods, so for me it is not surprise that a mobile phone market that, looks like, it is getting stable, affects the sales of camera sensors.

Anyway, saying that, Sony recognized that is selling less cameras, probably due to less sells of A cameras and E ASP-C cameras.

That share figure is only for Japan, not the rest of the world. Look at the conclusions sections of this article about the presentation of the a6300 in Europe (http://www.mirrorlessons.com/2016/02/15/sony-a6300-review-first-impressions/ ):

Of course, this is the word of Sony. But Zeiss also reported in an interview (I cann't remember which one) that in Germany, the leader of sales in full-frame cameras is Sony.

I think Sony is doing quite well, I'm not Sony user but I'm considering one for my Canon glass. I will just liked that they would have a more clear strategy like for example Fuji is doing with their X system.
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Theodoros

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Re: Sony sensor division 2015 financial results
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2016, 03:05:48 pm »


The success of Sony α7 cameras (even I got one to use with a view camera) doesn't mean much... 97M$ of losses can't be rectified by a 10 or 20% rise of market segment in a particular segment... The purpose of the discussion is to examine if the cuts coming will affect the non profiting segments (which are always the low production segments)... Not how good Sony hi-end cameras or sensors are...
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gigdagefg

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Re: Sony sensor division 2015 financial results
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2016, 03:56:10 pm »

Hi,

I wouldn't deduce to much from a quarterly report. But, I would suggest that Sony's digital cameras are a very small part of the imaging systems market and i would think Sony sells more sensors to Canon and Nikon than to Sony's own imaging division.

But, the camera market is obviously shrinking and there is a lot of competition in the image sensor area.

Best regards

If Sony isn't making a substantial profit selling their sensors, they will have to dramatically have to raise the prices of those items or stop producing them. They are a public company required by their shareholders to be profitable!
Stanley
Erik
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Theodoros

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Re: Sony sensor division 2015 financial results
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2016, 04:23:57 pm »


I believe that "dramatically raise prices" is not an option... It would most probably mean loosing customers to competition... that, could be a fatal decision. OTOH, raising prices at the high end market would offer absolutely nothing as it is no where near able to provide a worth while profit due to size... It's 97M$ we are talking here...  and the vast majority of the amount is losses from the sensor division... 

I wonder how many sensors Sony made last year (don't have a clue)... it surely was millions but how many?  If it was 10 million for instance, it means that the lost 10$ per sensor they made... how can this have happened? They sells sensors that cost as much or lower.
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BJL

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Re: Sony sensor division 2015 financial results
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2016, 04:44:54 pm »

One of their biggest client of sensors, Apple, had a flat quarter in respect to their iPhone, and also a decreasing quarter selling iPads or iPods, so for me it is not surprise that a mobile phone market that, looks like, it is getting stable, affects the sales of camera sensors.
Wrong quarter: these Sony results are for the last three months of 2015, during which Apple set a new record for iPhone sales with the "7" models.  It is the next quarter where iPhone sales have been dipping, so maybe there is a bit more bad news coming in for Sony sensor sales.  Meanwhile, it seems that the drop in phone-camera sensor sales that Sony just reported must come from other brands of phone – maybe Samsung contributed by making more of its own phone-camera modules and thus buying less from Sony?
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davidgp

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Re: Sony sensor division 2015 financial results
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2016, 02:41:04 am »

Wrong quarter: these Sony results are for the last three months of 2015, during which Apple set a new record for iPhone sales with the "7" models.  It is the next quarter where iPhone sales have been dipping, so maybe there is a bit more bad news coming in for Sony sensor sales.  Meanwhile, it seems that the drop in phone-camera sensor sales that Sony just reported must come from other brands of phone – maybe Samsung contributed by making more of its own phone-camera modules and thus buying less from Sony?

Right, my memory failed me, Apple sold a bit more iPhones last quarter: http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/01/apples-q2-revenue-forecast-overshadows-a-record-breaking-q1-of-2016/ . Not sure if it could be Samsung...

Erik is right, this is just a quarterly report, I think the image sensor business is quite healthy and its market will increase in the future, of course, not thanks to photography (but of course, Sony and other companies are making more money per unit with the bigger sensors of the cameras than the ones for mobiles... the bigger the sensor the more costly it is to make, more money they can ask for it...). I read the other day that Panasonic is starting to develop again their own sensors with plan in the future years to commercialize them again. Also, the rumor of a close collaboration between Nikon and Samsung, if true, will make things more interesting (I see with good eyes that Sony loses a bit of dominance of the sensor market... competence it is always good... helps us to get better products).

synn

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Re: Sony sensor division 2015 financial results
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2016, 05:14:23 am »

Hey Theo, did you know that CMOSIS was performing so badly that they were acquired last quarter?
Sony's doing pretty alright compared to that. Let's talk if another 8 quarters of heavy losses follow this one.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Sony sensor division 2015 financial results
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2016, 06:01:07 am »

Hey Theo, did you know that CMOSIS was performing so badly that they were acquired last quarter?
Sony's doing pretty alright compared to that. Let's talk if another 8 quarters of heavy losses follow this one.

They were acquired last quarter, but are certain that this is the result of poor performance?

Cheers,
Bernard

Theodoros

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Re: Sony sensor division 2015 financial results
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2016, 08:04:58 am »

I don't see what CMOSIS has to do with anything... Cmosis is a company that designs only large sensors aimed for the high end market, this is less than Sony's 1% market... Apparently Sony seems to be making about 1.000.000.000 (1B !!!!!) sensors annually (32% of a ....3.2B unit market), while their large sensor (FF and larger) market is no where near 10M units (that would be 1% of their production)... Thus, if they had production problems as Eronald mentioned earlier, that could justify 100M$ losses since it would mean that a massive amount of sensors where returned by customers back to the factory as being out of spec.... The question still remains though, obviously the MF sensor market isn't of importance to them in other than prestige reasons as it is as low as to be considered like non existed for them... 

Why do they bother with it at all then? I can see them making some million sensors for their own cameras, for their video market and for some other DSLR makers like Nikon or Pentax, but why do they bother for a few thousands (or even hundreds if the 100mp MF is sensor is concerned) of MF sensors? Do they see something in the future that we fail to see? Surely their involvement with the MF market has nothing to offer them financially at least for now...
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tochnia

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Re: Sony sensor division 2015 financial results
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2016, 12:04:11 pm »

About Cmosis:  "Based on available information, CMOSIS expects to continue year-on-year revenue growth in 2016." and "expects to generate full year 2015 revenues of approx. EUR 60m"

Information from their press release here: http://www.cmosis.com/news/press_releases/ams_acquires_cmosis_a_leading_supplier_of_high-end_area_scan_and_miniature_medical_image_sensors

So it is not about bad results, but there were very small fish in the market, whole company was purchased for just EUR 220m.  ;)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 12:23:40 pm by tochnia »
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davidgp

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Re: Sony sensor division 2015 financial results
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2016, 06:23:13 pm »

Why do they bother with it at all then? I can see them making some million sensors for their own cameras, for their video market and for some other DSLR makers like Nikon or Pentax, but why do they bother for a few thousands (or even hundreds if the 100mp MF is sensor is concerned) of MF sensors? Do they see something in the future that we fail to see? Surely their involvement with the MF market has nothing to offer them financially at least for now...

Because they make more money with them than with the ones going for mobile phones. Like other CMOS chips like CPU processors, they use silicon wafers of 300mm of diameter. In each wafer they produce by physical and chemical processes the chips. If the chip is small one, like for the mobile phones, they make lots of chips per wafer. If the chip is bigger one, they make less. After the chips are finished they are cut into individual pieces. Typically, the wafer can have impurities in the silicon wafer, or some random error in the chemical or physical processes. That makes that a percentage of the chips are bad ones that can not be used for anything. When bigger is the chip, bigger is the risk or, using chip makes nomenclature, the yield is lower (yield = good chips / bad chips per wafer). Sony, Intel, Samsung ask more money when bigger is the chip, since it cost more for them to make since the risk is higher. At the end, when the manufacturing process is mature enough (it takes time for them to fine tune the different processes until they improve a lot their yields rates), they start making much more money from bigger chips, since they are getting better yields and they are still asking the same amount of money when it was more risky.

That reason it is also why you see the improvements first try in smaller chips. We are seeing now BSI full frame sensors (A7r II) or copper wired ASP-C sensors (A6300), main reason it is that the manufacturing process is mature enough they can risk making bigger chips with that.

In the end, they are probably making more money per area in the chips that go to Phase One that in the ones that go to mobile phones, and the complexity for them it is the same, one just cut bigger pieces. Of course there are some design overhead costs but I'm quite sure Phase One paid part of those... it looks like they are getting the exclusive of the chip for some time...
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