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Author Topic: Solvent printers for fine art/gallery prints  (Read 3564 times)

shadowblade

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Solvent printers for fine art/gallery prints
« on: February 09, 2016, 12:38:08 am »

With solvent printers getting better and better (output from the Epson S70 being pretty spectacular, and the S80 apparently being even better), I'm considering moving to solvent instead of aqueous inkjet for colour prints on paper and canvas.

The advantages I can see, with regards to colour photography, are:

- Much better physical durability. You can scrape the inkjet layer off an inkjet paper even after it's been printed and sprayed. No such problems with solvent - I'm not sure if the layer is just more adherent, doesn't flake off or what.
- No need to worry about ink permanence on any suitable medium - 2-3 years outdoors in the sun, wind and rain for uncoated prints equals many centuries of indoor display, especially when coated with a UV-protective laminate.

The main disadvantage (with respect to the final output, not the cost or the fumes of the printer), up to this point, has been the colour gamut and lower resolution of solvent prints, but this seems to have been resolved with the 4.2pL droplets and 8-ink system (9 with the S80) of the latest printers.

Obviously, fading colours aren't a problem for black-and-white printing, so I'll stick with aqueous carbon inks for that.

Is anyone doing this at the moment? I don't mean for cheap-and-cheerful decorative canvas prints, but for large (16x24 or larger, mostly at least 20x30 or 16x48 size, up to 32x96 or larger) works destined for private collection, galleries, etc. How was your experience with it?

Breathing Colour's Urth canvas and Solvent Smooth/Solvent Textured papers look good and seem to perform well. Does anyone know of other canvasses and papers that fit the bill (both in terms of gamut and substrate longevity)? I'm also looking for a solvent-compatible film, which can be flat-mounted onto Dibond for a high-gloss, Fujiflex-like result, but far more durable.

I'd still want to spray the prints with Timeless, despite not being strictly necessary (and usually omitted by print houses), both for further protection and to control the level of gloss.

Obviously, I'd need to find a print lab which can do this, and will emphasise output quality over speed. Many labs who print with solvent seem to use cheaper canvasses and papers to save money, but whose quality I am uncertain of. Any particular print shops you'd recommend?
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noisegeek

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Re: Solvent printers for fine art/gallery prints
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2016, 11:27:45 am »

While I haven't run any of the newest models of Epson's solvent printers, I've been running the older models for years. The short version of my response is: I wouldn't recommend it.

While it's true that there is better physical durability with solvent inks (on most substrates, you'll damage the substrate before the ink layer), the materials available that you can print on are extremely limited, and to the best of my knowledge, none of them are archival. Papers made for aqueous printing (especially all those lovely photographic papers) are almost universally unusable with solvent inks. I'm not talking "they don't print great", I mean "my printer is an ungodly mess that is going to take hours to clean".

As far as colorfastness and ink permanence goes, with the Epson inks you're looking at six months unlaminated (and that's an adhesive vinyl laminate, not a spray-on). As for laminated prints, sure, they'll have fairly stable color for several years, but after that they'll degrade fairly quickly.

Simply put, these printers/inks are not designed for fine-art. They are signage and graphics printers. Unless something has changed with the latest versions, they don't even come with a RGB print driver. They require a RIP and CMYK+ profiling workflow (and profiling is a whole lot more involved).
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shadowblade

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Re: Solvent printers for fine art/gallery prints
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2016, 07:50:34 pm »

While I haven't run any of the newest models of Epson's solvent printers, I've been running the older models for years. The short version of my response is: I wouldn't recommend it.

Which particular models? The ones which just run CMYK, or the ones with extra colours (like GS6000 or S70670)?

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While it's true that there is better physical durability with solvent inks (on most substrates, you'll damage the substrate before the ink layer), the materials available that you can print on are extremely limited, and to the best of my knowledge, none of them are archival. Papers made for aqueous printing (especially all those lovely photographic papers) are almost universally unusable with solvent inks. I'm not talking "they don't print great", I mean "my printer is an ungodly mess that is going to take hours to clean".

Obviously you wouldn't be printing on the same thing as aqueous printers. But you don't need a choice of hundreds of media - you need a few quality ones that do the job. A canvas, a matte, a satin, a glossy and possibly a high-gloss film.

What do you mean by 'archival'? I would define that as a print that doesn't noticeably change its appearance for as long as possible (some aqueous ink/paper combinations are still going strong at 200Mlux-hours over at Aardenburg) on a substrate and ink layer that won't noticeably degrade during that time (e.g. ink-receptive layers that start to flake off), and preferably as physically durable as possible. From that perspective, mounting to Dibond and sealing (for example) is good - even though it's irreversible, it makes the final product much more durable than the print on its own, able to hold together long after a standalone paper may have become brittle and fallen apart or the inkjet layer flaked off. The whole thing becomes the final, 'archival' product, not just the piece of paper holding the ink.

That said, Breathing Color's Urth has been rated as an an 'archival' canvas, available in both gloss and satin. So are Breathing Color's Solvent Smooth and Solvent Textured papers (spray on Timeless to control the gloss if you want a satin or high-gloss rather than matte finish). And I'd imagine a smooth, OBA-free, solvent-receptive polyester film (similar in appearance to Fujiflex) isn't going to degrade any time soon. Any ideas on who makes such a film?

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As far as colorfastness and ink permanence goes, with the Epson inks you're looking at six months unlaminated (and that's an adhesive vinyl laminate, not a spray-on). As for laminated prints, sure, they'll have fairly stable color for several years, but after that they'll degrade fairly quickly.

I'll assume that's outdoor rather than indoor? Although the mentioned lifespan is 2-3 years.

What do you mean that they'll 'degrade fairly quickly'? As in, they'll be fine for six months-three years, then just fall apart, more quickly than aqueous prints under the same conditions?

Sure, any print will degrade eventually - but, if it will significantly outlast an aqueous print under th same conditions, that can only be a good thing, can't it?

I'm just worried about metamerism and different appearances under different lighting conditions.

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Simply put, these printers/inks are not designed for fine-art. They are signage and graphics printers. Unless something has changed with the latest versions, they don't even come with a RGB print driver. They require a RIP and CMYK+ profiling workflow (and profiling is a whole lot more involved).

Certainly true of the Rolands, Mimakis and other 4-colour (or 4+white/metallic) printers. Quite a few specialist photo printers seem to be using Epson GS6000 or S70670 printers to do canvas these days, though - I wonder if they're on to something.
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noisegeek

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Re: Solvent printers for fine art/gallery prints
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2016, 09:07:51 am »

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Which particular models?
Of the Epsons? GS6ks and S70xxxs

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What do you mean by 'archival'?
More or less what you said. Acid free, etc. The Breathing Color stuff looks interesting, but it's the inks I wouldn't trust.

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What do you mean that they'll 'degrade fairly quickly'?
I mean after several years, even indoors with UV lamination, the inks will fade fairly quickly (several dE in a matter of months). The yellow from the GS6k inkset is especially bad in this regard. Perhaps the S70xxx inks will perform better (we haven't had prints in the field long enough to really judge) but I'm not banking on it.

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Quite a few specialist photo printers seem to be using Epson GS6000 or S70670 printers to do canvas these days, though - I wonder if they're on to something.
I'm not saying you can't print canvas and the like, I'm just saying I wouldn't sell them to people as something they'll be passing on to their grandkids.
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shadowblade

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Re: Solvent printers for fine art/gallery prints
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2016, 09:39:02 am »

Of the Epsons? GS6ks and S70xxxs
More or less what you said. Acid free, etc. The Breathing Color stuff looks interesting, but it's the inks I wouldn't trust.
I mean after several years, even indoors with UV lamination, the inks will fade fairly quickly (several dE in a matter of months). The yellow from the GS6k inkset is especially bad in this regard. Perhaps the S70xxx inks will perform better (we haven't had prints in the field long enough to really judge) but I'm not banking on it.

That's interesting, if it's indoors.

I can't think why prints would last 2-3 years outdoors in the sun, wind and rain, and not much longer indoors, whereas aqueous prints which wouldn't last three weeks outdoors under direct sunlight (even when protected from rain and wind) can last a century or longer indoors, and even chromogenic prints will last decades.

Any particular reason?
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stcstc31

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Re: Solvent printers for fine art/gallery prints
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2016, 10:26:24 am »

actualy aqueous can last mong outdoors


the sign next to my door, a 10*8 inch acrylic facemeounted print. 10mm acrylic, cheap assed ilford commercial grade gloss paper. printed on 9880 has been outside for 5 years, and i am on the coast (the habour is behind my building) and it is only now starting to look a bit tatty


the wind and rain i dont belive will actually do anywhere near as much damage as the sun blasting down on anything


mate runs an 8 colour epson solvent thingie, works great for graphics, photos look rubbish, no real shadow detail, in fact lots of colours block up really quickly

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Stephen Crozier

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shadowblade

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Re: Solvent printers for fine art/gallery prints
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2016, 10:54:58 am »

actualy aqueous can last mong outdoors


the sign next to my door, a 10*8 inch acrylic facemeounted print. 10mm acrylic, cheap assed ilford commercial grade gloss paper. printed on 9880 has been outside for 5 years, and i am on the coast (the habour is behind my building) and it is only now starting to look a bit tatty

Where are you based? I can't imagine any aqueous print looking decent after 5 years outdoors here in Australia. Particularly one printed using the Ultrachrome K3 inkset and its weak yellows...

How does it look compared to a new print? Is there much fading or change in the colours?

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the wind and rain i dont belive will actually do anywhere near as much damage as the sun blasting down on anything

Not to the ink (unless it's completely uncoated). But they certainly help the underlying substrate to fall apart, and can get at the print itself if the seal isn't complete. That applies to both solvent and aqueous prints.

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mate runs an 8 colour epson solvent thingie, works great for graphics, photos look rubbish, no real shadow detail, in fact lots of colours block up really quickly

Sounds like there might be something wrong with the profiling or the print media - the prints I've seen from well-profiled machine on quality media look fantastic (I'm talking print sizes of 16x24" and up - not sure about small prints), although I've heard that eco-solvent printers, particularly Epson ones (which are very, very eco) can be a bit fussy about what you're printing on. Can't say I've had an issue with the image quality of the latest solvent inkjets, particularly on canvas - the question is more how do they hold up.
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stcstc31

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Re: Solvent printers for fine art/gallery prints
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2016, 11:53:44 am »

based in ireland

cold, wet, nasty weather :-)


mates one not the profiling, has a barbieri auto machine thats like 5k or so, and knows what he doing with it etc

lot of the mediums cant hold the colour gamut etc.



even all of the epson samples i have seen for the gs6000 etc are not a patch on the 9900 etc

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Stephen Crozier

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shadowblade

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Re: Solvent printers for fine art/gallery prints
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2016, 12:47:24 pm »

based in ireland

cold, wet, nasty weather :-)

Yeah, probably not nearly as much sunlight there... More rain, though.

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mates one not the profiling, has a barbieri auto machine thats like 5k or so, and knows what he doing with it etc

lot of the mediums cant hold the colour gamut etc.

Probably the medium then. I've seen some fantastic prints on premium solvent canvas (as well as some truly terrible prints made on cheap signage media). Epson solvent ink doesn't seem to be very forgiving with regards to substrates.

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even all of the epson samples i have seen for the gs6000 etc are not a patch on the 9900 etc

I seem to be hearing different things from different people - some saying they can't tell the difference, others saying that aqueous print quality is light-years ahead. And it seems to have no correlation with what printer they own...
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