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Author Topic: Iq3 100 and Technical camera  (Read 11540 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Iq3 100 and Technical camera
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2016, 07:29:08 pm »

I assume all interested parties have already seen this thread at getdpi.com:

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/57712-dt-tech-cam-samples.html

Thanks a lot to Doug and his team for the work done here.

Having checked a few samples, my personnal take is:
- The gap of image quality between the Rodenstock tech camera lenses non shifted and the Schneider SLR lenses is vastly exagerated. Yes, the Roddys may be a bit cleaner and a tiny bit sharper, but it is very far from being the night and day difference some have been boasting about,
- Even the supposedely perfect 90mm shows a very significant degradation of sharpness shifted to the extend that using a wider lens cropped may end up delivery similar image quality (and both will be far behind a stitch when manageable),
- I don't see too much of the color issues/loss of saturation mentioned by Anders even with some of the wider lenses,
- the wider lenses (23mm and 32mm) are pretty much unusable without a center filter.

Comments welcome. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

torger

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Re: Iq3 100 and Technical camera
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2016, 07:09:35 am »

I haven't looked at the raws myself, as I've pretty much lost the interest in the system.

They've learnt a lesson from the IQ250 tests to not push the sensor to obvious breakdowns but tried to show it in the useful range. And they're discussing the method to combining small shifts with software perspective corrections, or using XF + 35ls instead and just do software perspective corrections. We're starting to see a "paradigm shift" in how MF manufacturers think you should make high end architecture photography, where tech cameras are eventually replaced by standard cameras without optical shift. Traditionalists like myself that are attracted by the "large format shooting style" think it's a bit boring, but I can't stop technical development.

Crosstalk-related color issues are typically very subtle unless you push it way too far or have some exotic color combination or light. I've described in another thread a while ago why it's pretty messy to evaluate that aspect, and I'm probably not doing more of that now. I already know as much that it has the same problems as the IQ250 in about the same extent. I don't want to spend a large amount of money on a digital back and having to worry about pushing the sensor past its designed limits even if it usually doesn't show much. I don't have any problem with others doing that, but it's not my thing.

Leica kept the long-time technically obsolete manual range-finder design just because there's a niche of users that like the shooting experience. In a similar way I'm hoping that there will be a market for traditionalist tech cam with optical movements but I'm afraid the concept won't survive another 6-8 years with digital backs that doesn't play well with it.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 07:24:49 am by torger »
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vjbelle

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Re: Iq3 100 and Technical camera
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2016, 08:01:23 am »

I assume all interested parties have already seen this thread at getdpi.com:

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/57712-dt-tech-cam-samples.html

Thanks a lot to Doug and his team for the work done here.

Having checked a few samples, my personnal take is:
- The gap of image quality between the Rodenstock tech camera lenses non shifted and the Schneider SLR lenses is vastly exagerated. Yes, the Roddys may be a bit cleaner and a tiny bit sharper, but it is very far from being the night and day difference some have been boasting about,
- Even the supposedely perfect 90mm shows a very significant degradation of sharpness shifted to the extend that using a wider lens cropped may end up delivery similar image quality (and both will be far behind a stitch when manageable),
- I don't see too much of the color issues/loss of saturation mentioned by Anders even with some of the wider lenses,
- the wider lenses (23mm and 32mm) are pretty much unusable without a center filter.

Comments welcome. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

You are definetly right.  As an owner of 7 Schneider Digitars from 35XL to 180mm I can attest that the Schneider's are easy to shoot shifted.  Sure they need an LCC but so do the Rody's.  The 35XL is very sharp and with the latest version of C1 I'm able to get a clean 10mm of shift or rise on my IQ180.  I have no doubts that when I receive my 100MP that it will perform as well or better.

Victor
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Iq3 100 and Technical camera
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2016, 08:30:27 am »

You are definetly right. 

In fact my comment wasn't about the Schneider tech lenses, but about the Phaseone Schneider Mamiya mount ones, obviously not shifted.

Cheers,
Bernard

Paul2660

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Re: Iq3 100 and Technical camera
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2016, 08:47:56 am »

Yes, it's safe to say that the new Schneider lenses, 35LS, 40-80LS, and 120mm Macro are very good indeed.  They are priced in the same range as the Rodenstocks, so they need to be.    The 55mm and 80mm are also very good optics. 

Paul C
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vjbelle

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Re: Iq3 100 and Technical camera
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2016, 09:13:38 am »

In fact my comment wasn't about the Schneider tech lenses, but about the Phaseone Schneider Mamiya mount ones, obviously not shifted.

Cheers,
Bernard

It does pay to read carefully.. ;D

Victor
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torger

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Re: Iq3 100 and Technical camera
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2016, 10:06:54 am »

Should be said that the Schneider XF system lenses get precise software correction in Capture One, which the tech lenses don't get, so they're cheating a bit ;), but indeed the results are very good with cheats applied and it's the result that counts.
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Paul2660

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Re: Iq3 100 and Technical camera
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2016, 10:34:33 am »

The Schneider's get corrections, but most of the Rodenstock's do now also, but as far as I can tell the corrections are standard distortion type adjustments. 

What would be nice, for 6700.00 or 8700.00 (price of 35LS and 40-80 respectively) would be that Phase One develop a way to handle diffraction softness as Fuji and now Canon are doing with their lens optimization routines. 

Sadly the Fuji Corrections can only be used on in camera jpg, not raw (sure would be nice if C1 or LR figured out a way to use it) and Canon has announced this on the 1DS MKII, not sure how it will in implemented i.e. only on in camera jpgs or raw or both (will C1 and LR be able to use the data?)

With 100MP backs or larger, this type of optimization is what I am hoping to see in the future.  I don't see this working with tech lenses are they are pretty dumb, in regards to giving any feedback.  And I only hope that it can be added to the modern Schneider/Phase optics via firmware. 
These are the small changes that will possible make using such high MP backs a bit easier. 

Paul C
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Paul Caldwell
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Iq3 100 and Technical camera
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2016, 10:41:28 am »

What would be nice, for 6700.00 or 8700.00 (price of 35LS and 40-80 respectively) would be that Phase One develop a way to handle diffraction softness as Fuji and now Canon are doing with their lens optimization routines. 

Sadly the Fuji Corrections can only be used on in camera jpg, not raw (sure would be nice if C1 or LR figured out a way to use it) and Canon has announced this on the 1DS MKII, not sure how it will in implemented i.e. only on in camera jpgs or raw or both (will C1 and LR be able to use the data?)

So far as I know this is glorified in-camera sharpening. The same deconvolution sharpening could be applied to raws from any camera; they are just doing it in camera for those who shoot JPG.

Doug Peterson

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Re: Iq3 100 and Technical camera
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2016, 10:43:06 am »

The Schneider's get corrections, but most of the Rodenstock's do now also, but as far as I can tell the corrections are standard distortion type adjustments. 

Distortion, sharpness falloff (though, obviously, very little is needed), and chromatic aberration mapping (again, very little to be done) are all present for the characterized Rodenstock lenses.

torger

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Re: Iq3 100 and Technical camera
« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2016, 10:52:14 am »

Distortion, sharpness falloff (though, obviously, very little is needed), and chromatic aberration mapping (again, very little to be done) are all present for the characterized Rodenstock lenses.

I suppose you need to remember your tilt, shift and aperture settings though so you can put that into the correction algorithm in C1?
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Paul2660

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Re: Iq3 100 and Technical camera
« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2016, 10:58:17 am »

So far as I know this is glorified in-camera sharpening. The same deconvolution sharpening could be applied to raws from any camera; they are just doing it in camera for those who shoot JPG.

Maybe, but looks like Canon seems to feel it's more than "glorified in camera sharpening" and if you read about a bit on the Fuji side, there quite a bit going on that Phase One might be able to consider.  At 100MP even F11 may start showing diffraction issues and wouldn't it be better to correct this at the time of the raw conversion vs later on with a third party software like Focus Magic or Piccure+.  Both do a great job but it just seems it would be better during the initial processing of the raw itself.

As far as sharpness fall off, in C1 that is available in an adjustment slider for the lenses mentioned. Are you saying that there is also some sharpness fall off being done in the raw conversion (not sure how C1 could do this as for a tech lens as it's unaware of the lens from the meta data) and you have to manually select the lens in the lens tab.  I could see it being done for the A series maybe as more communication seems to be there at least for the LCC process.  And for the new Schneider LS optics as there is communication between the back/and XF and lens and I guess firmware in the lenses also. 

Just curious.

Paul C
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Paul Caldwell
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Iq3 100 and Technical camera
« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2016, 11:51:48 am »

I suppose you need to remember your tilt, shift and aperture settings though so you can put that into the correction algorithm in C1?

This is the one reason why I am not looking forward to upgrading and having to deal with the Roddie wides.  For me, it is not too bad, since I almost always shoot tethered. 

However, there are plenty of times when shooting exteriors I just shoot to the card, and having to write down the movements is kind of annoying and time consuming. 

Considering that Acra has a sensor in the camera to assist with focusing on the eModule, I guess they could install sensors to record shift and tilt.  However, this would be on Arca's side and I am not sure how that would get translated to the metadata of the image. 

This being said, dealing with a CF is a pain, and I would rather have the Roddie 40mm in an IQ #60 back then my SK 35 on a P45+. 
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