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Author Topic: Schneider Apo-Symmar 120 & 150mm with Digital Back  (Read 8226 times)

hirok_jp

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Schneider Apo-Symmar 120 & 150mm with Digital Back
« on: February 02, 2016, 05:27:29 am »

Hi, it seems everyone on this board is very knowledgeable about medium to large format photography, so I would like to ask for your input, to see if you agree to what I have in my mind.

I recently shot still life photos of cosmetic products (yes, I'm a still life photographer). I used H5D-40 on Sinar P2. I used Schneider Apo-Symmar 120 & 150mm at f22.

The photos did not turned out to be sharp. I ended up to change the lens (and the camera body) to HC150mm.

At f11, yes, they were sharp enough. Apo-Symmar 120 & 150mm are old lenses, but I was assuming they would keep the quality up to somewhere around f22, since they are such good glasses.

Here comes my question:
I own Apo-Symmar 120, 150, 180 and 210mm. I also own super-angulon 65mm. When you need to close down the aperture, at what aperture do you use up to? Have you experienced the loss of sharpness around f16-22 for these lenses? Is this because of the relationship between an analog lens and a digital back, or just the nature of these lenses?

If anyone can help me learning more about these lenses, I very much appreciate it. Thanks!
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neilwatson

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Re: Schneider Apo-Symmar 120 & 150mm with Digital Back
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2016, 06:04:18 am »

I have used most of the old Scheider film lens on a P2 sinar camera similar to your usage.

I found the biggest issue was to get the front and rear standards to be perfectly parallel.  If you get the standards parallel then the old lens will work well.

The 120 I found hard to get all corners sharp.
The 150 has a razor thin focus plane. Difficult to get focus spot on.
The 210 is a fantasticly sharp lens.

The 65 is also a very good sharp lens considering price performance.  Easy to use.

I got best result at f11 or f16.  You need to stop down to get the corners sharp.
by f22 defraction started to reduce quality. But still very usable.

These are all nice lens.  They have a nice rendering.
But if your looking for super sharp pixel peeping quality right across the frame at wider open f numbers. Try one of the newer Rodenstock lens. It's a different look than the scheneider lens. Depends on your preference.


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gebseng

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Re: Schneider Apo-Symmar 120 & 150mm with Digital Back
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2016, 12:59:31 pm »

I am an architectural photographer and use a Leaf Credo 40 Back with Schneider Digitar Lenses (28mm and 72mm). For the occasional tele shot, I also use a Schneider Symmar 150mm. I find the Symmar 150mm to be definitively less sharp than the digitars, but with a little more sharpening the files mostly hold up. As neilwatson said, diffraction kicks in at around f22, probably f16 already, depending on the resolution of your back. But you have to be aware that diffraction kicks in even earlier with low magnification factors, e.g. macro shots. So, if you make product shots of small items, you probably should not stop down more than f8 to avoid diffraction.

best,

geb
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hirok_jp

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Re: Schneider Apo-Symmar 120 & 150mm with Digital Back
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2016, 09:39:33 pm »

Thank you neilwatson for your reply! Really helpful input!

I did not know the front and back standards are difficult to get perfectly parallel - how do you make sure they are parallel? If they are not parallel enough, how do you adjust their positions?

Hiro
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 09:40:42 am by hirok_jp »
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hirok_jp

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Re: Schneider Apo-Symmar 120 & 150mm with Digital Back
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2016, 09:49:12 pm »

gebseng, thanks for your reply! Your reply is very helpful as well.

Yes, I do a lot of macro shots since my subjects are often very small, so that the low magnification might be occurring the diffraction.
Magnification was totally out of my mind. I was not considering about that at all.

Maybe it's time to move to Digitar or Rodenstock, as you and neilwatson recommended...

Hiro
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Ray R

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Re: Schneider Apo-Symmar 120 & 150mm with Digital Back
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2016, 11:07:59 am »

I used a super Angulon on a horseman 5x4 with a p45 for a landscape shot. I spent some 20-30 minutes trying to focus it, and having the back tethered to a computer. After this time I was thinking that I was wasting my time. I was adjusting the focus after each shot. Then, there it was, in focus. I can't tell you what the f  stop was but I was using a tilt.

I found the movement of the focus to be very small from soft (out of focus) to sharp.

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RomanN.

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Re: Schneider Apo-Symmar 120 & 150mm with Digital Back
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2016, 09:53:21 am »

To this what you mean "old" Apo Symmar 5,6/120 mm:
- when introduced it was the sharpest lens that Schneider made as standart large format len! It was the best Apo Symmar ever made with estoning results at aperture 8. that no other Symmar could deliver.
The lens was made specially for 120 film, but give also some movemnts on 4x5.
Schneider labeled this Apo Symmar to Apo Digitar as they made in with the 100 mm Apo Symmar also.
The Apo Symmar 150 mm is a great lens for 4x5 inch but cant deliver the same performance as the apo symmar 120 mm, therefore Schneider use the Apo Componon 150 mm for digital work- labeled as Apo Digitar 150 mm.
But at 22 th diffraction will limited the performance of all  lenses, also the HC 150 mm is very soft at 22.
I would try the Macro Symmar / Apo Digitar Macro 120 mm for close up work...
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gebseng

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Re: Schneider Apo-Symmar 120 & 150mm with Digital Back
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2016, 09:56:24 am »

Interesting! Isn't the Apo-Componon an enlarger lens?
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RomanN.

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Re: Schneider Apo-Symmar 120 & 150mm with Digital Back
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2016, 10:10:27 am »

yes, all componons are enlarging lenses, but not only.
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gebseng

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Re: Schneider Apo-Symmar 120 & 150mm with Digital Back
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2016, 10:14:20 am »

yes, all componons are enlarging lenses, but not only.

So, do you have an idea if it would be possible to mount a 150mm Componon enlarger lens in a Copal shutter? Also, do you think they are multicoated? They are quite cheap on ebay...

best,

geb
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TimoK

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Re: Schneider Apo-Symmar 120 & 150mm with Digital Back
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2016, 12:22:41 pm »

I was wondering if there was an issue with focus shift when stopping down the Symmar. So I made an quick test with my 150mm Apo Symmar from late 90's. I was using Cambo Actus Mini with Canon 6D as a sensor (so I'm at the wrong place here in medium format forum; I apologize and try to keep away in future). With Actus standad Bellows and monorail I was able to get ~1:10 magnification, not nearer. My test target was a ruler (or two), like in lens tests of photozone.de.
Focus shift when stopping down the aperture is typical with retrofocus lenses, but should not be any issue with symmetric constructions.
And so it was in my test. I focused aperture full open (F5,6), took a shot; and then a serie stopping down one stop at once.
I did not find any shit of focus point (plane).
But what I found was that sharpness varied quite a lot between the f-stops. In F8 shot the DOF was larger, but also shapness in focal plane was better than F5,6. F11 same sharpness with longer DOF. F16 slightly less sharp, more DOF (still sharper than F5,6). F22 remarkable less sharp, not as sharp as F5,6.  F32 allover soft, DOF very good, maybe acceptable picture for special reasons.
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Gigi

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Re: Schneider Apo-Symmar 120 & 150mm with Digital Back
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2016, 05:33:50 pm »

diffraction
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Geoff

RomanN.

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Re: Schneider Apo-Symmar 120 & 150mm with Digital Back
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2016, 07:56:28 am »

So, do you have an idea if it would be possible to mount a 150mm Componon enlarger lens in a Copal shutter? Also, do you think they are multicoated? They are quite cheap on ebay...

best,

geb

Only the latest Apo Componons HM are multicouted, these is exactly the Apo Digitars.
The classic Componons/ Componons-S are all single couted.
The Apos deliver best performance already wide open, the componons 2 stopps down.
The performance is in praxis very close till not visible.
I cant see any diffeneces at pictures that i took with the apo digitar 80 and the componon s 80 mm.
The MC is less important as many think.
All componons can be used with copal shutters afcourse
Componons are 6 elements symmars with little improvents for their specifical use.
Their image circle is as I remember little bit less ( 68° I think, at 22/infininty) but they are very similar to the symmar-s.
I tested for me also late symmar-S MC from 80.. lenses and compered them to Apo symmars, Apo Sironar S and Apo Dgitars and Apo Sironar Digitals ( same lens as Apo Sironar S) and was very surpraised. All tested lenses were 180 mm, only the apo digitar was 210 mm. So the best was the Apo digitar 210, than comes the symmar S! hart to believe but true. The symmar S have only one disadvantage, it was very hart to focus. After i find out how to avoid this focus shift I could not believe that this lens cleary outperform the Apo sironar digital. I also tested older symmar and symmar s and they was bad. The G-claron 210 mm was also a great lens.
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gebseng

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Re: Schneider Apo-Symmar 120 & 150mm with Digital Back
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2016, 04:34:09 pm »

Only the latest Apo Componons HM are multicouted, these is exactly the Apo Digitars.
The classic Componons/ Componons-S are all single couted.
The Apos deliver best performance already wide open, the componons 2 stopps down.
The performance is in praxis very close till not visible.
I cant see any diffeneces at pictures that i took with the apo digitar 80 and the componon s 80 mm.
The MC is less important as many think.
All componons can be used with copal shutters afcourse
Componons are 6 elements symmars with little improvents for their specifical use.
Their image circle is as I remember little bit less ( 68° I think, at 22/infininty) but they are very similar to the symmar-s.
I tested for me also late symmar-S MC from 80.. lenses and compered them to Apo symmars, Apo Sironar S and Apo Dgitars and Apo Sironar Digitals ( same lens as Apo Sironar S) and was very surpraised. All tested lenses were 180 mm, only the apo digitar was 210 mm. So the best was the Apo digitar 210, than comes the symmar S! hart to believe but true. The symmar S have only one disadvantage, it was very hart to focus. After i find out how to avoid this focus shift I could not believe that this lens cleary outperform the Apo sironar digital. I also tested older symmar and symmar s and they was bad. The G-claron 210 mm was also a great lens.


Thanks for the info, very helpful!

best,

geb
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TimoK

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Re: Schneider Apo-Symmar 120 & 150mm with Digital Back
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2016, 12:53:51 am »


The symmar S have only one disadvantage, it was very hart to focus. After i find out how to avoid this focus shift I could not believe that this lens cleary outperform the Apo sironar digital. I also tested older symmar and symmar s and they was bad. The G-claron 210 mm was also a great lens.
This is interesting. I did not see any focus shift in Apo-Symmar 150mm. What was your shooting distance?

I cant see any diffeneces at pictures that i took with the apo digitar 80 and the componon s 80 mm.
The MC is less important as many think.


Or the coating on Apo-Digitars is not so great. This is taken with Apo Digitar 80mm.
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hirok_jp

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Re: Schneider Apo-Symmar 120 & 150mm with Digital Back
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2016, 01:02:08 am »

Wow, the discussion is going so much beyond my expectation (and beyond my understanding)...!
I am happy to see these discussions. Thanks for a learning opportunity. Hiro
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RomanN.

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Re: Schneider Apo-Symmar 120 & 150mm with Digital Back
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2016, 06:07:21 pm »

This is interesting. I did not see any focus shift in Apo-Symmar 150mm. What was your shooting distance?Or the coating on Apo-Digitars is not so great. This is taken with Apo Digitar 80mm.

Hi,
Apo Symmars Design is a little bit different to Symmar S, they are not the same. I get the strong focus shift with my symmar-S 180, with Apo Symmar 210 there was no problem. I tested my longer lenses with on long distance, not close. The reason for the focus shift could be also the shutter, my symmar S 180 is in black compur shutter whereas Apo Symmar 210 and others in Copal shutter.
to the Apo Digitar 80 mm:
the 4/80 is a very good lens, and the problem you get should be easy to solve by using compendium.
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neilwatson

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Re: Schneider Apo-Symmar 120 & 150mm with Digital Back
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2016, 08:23:16 pm »

To get the standards parallel on the sinar p2

I remove the bellows and move the two standards towards each other and place a ruler between them. I adjust the standards to be perfectly parallel.  I do this first for vertical and then horizontal. Lock all swings and tilt movements and then replace bellows.

If there is a better way please let me know.
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