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Author Topic: VERY depressed. Help needed!  (Read 13805 times)

rogerxnz

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2016, 02:20:19 pm »

My son was in the same position with his drone as you want to be, Steve. He could see the video in real time, position the drone to frame a still shot and then press a "digital" button to take the shot. There was no hit and miss or guesswork. He could compose the shot with the same precision as we do. The difference is that he could put his camera anywhere in the sky to take the shot effortlessly.

Just to emphasise, he is not grabbing a video frame from the 1000s taken. He is taking a specific still shot.

I have attached an image which cannot be emulated because there are no nearby high spots to take the shot from. We are not talking about GoPros shots with their distortion.

Here's a link to a video showcasing his drone work during his visit to New Zealand. It shows shots of the Putangirua Pinnacles which no land-based photographer can get. Although this is video, the point is that at any time he can press a button and take a 12MP still shot. Remember the video is at Facebook resolution.

https://www.facebook.com/matthew.hayman.79/videos/10208244525607743/?pnref=story

Please allow for the limited Facebook resolution.

The negative things about drones that stop me from getting into them are the restrictions against using them and the high cost of buying a CMOS back and heavy-lifting drone.
Roger (still depressed)

PS If anyone wants a guided tour of the Putangirua Pinnacles (which were featured in a Lord of the Rings movie), let me know.

PPS I have just realised that the high cost included the cost of upgrading my IQ180 to the latest CMOS 100MP back. Might be safer and cheaper to buy a 50MP CMOS back?


You can shoot with as many (or as few) megapixels as you like, hanging the camera off a drone is not an obstacle. It's not about megapixels vs drone use.

If a drone works for you artistically, there's a way to make it happen. I personally have not yet caught the drone fever. Unless I am artificially creating a scene, if I am capturing something more or less faithfully that I did nothing to produce, other than standing in the right spot at the right time, I need to feel connected to the image I am capturing by viewing it at the camera. If I cannot do that, it doesn't feel like my image (I know - this is just a mental block to some). But capturing the image the way I see it is important to me. If I can't see it - as in my drone is hovering 30 feet above me - then that loses something for me.

Maybe in time this will change for me ....  ::)

Nonetheless - not everyone has this perspective hanging around their neck, and if not, the creative possibilities are certainly enhanced with a drone.


Steve Hendrix
CI
« Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 02:45:21 pm by rogerxnz »
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Roger Hayman
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2016, 02:59:36 pm »

Most landscape photographs are done at the edge of the day, or in the extreme weather, rarely in broad and bright daylight. Drones strike me as fair-weather tools, however. Given the vibrations, you'd need a very high shutter speed, thus high ISO. So, the end result might be a phenomenal viewpoint, but with a disappointing, broad-daylight lighting, or a noisy image. Or I am missing something?

Jager

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2016, 07:20:22 am »

Roger, can I ask what model drone your son is using?

Still cameras held in the hand will always be my first choice for nearly any serious photographic need, but I'm not averse to exploring something new...

ErikKaffehr

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2016, 02:59:40 pm »

Hi Slobodan,

I have posted a link to a video a couple of weeks ago. One of the places I love on this planet. It was just great!

There are a lot of developments going on. DJI is doing some great image stabilisation and 1" sensors can be awesome. Drones add a third dimension like a tripod on plenty of steroids.

Best regards
Erik



Most landscape photographs are done at the edge of the day, or in the extreme weather, rarely in broad and bright daylight. Drones strike me as fair-weather tools, however. Given the vibrations, you'd need a very high shutter speed, thus high ISO. So, the end result might be a phenomenal viewpoint, but with a disappointing, broad-daylight lighting, or a noisy image. Or I am missing something?
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FelixWu

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2016, 10:06:24 pm »

On one of the recent assignment our videographer crashed his drone to the tree and damaged the gimbal. Now that is depressing! A drone couldn't do macro shots either and couldn't (not yet anyway) sync with flash. I am happy to trade a drone with your latest Hasselblad or PhaseOne kit. ; )
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eronald

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2016, 12:59:56 am »

On one of the recent assignment our videographer crashed his drone to the tree and damaged the gimbal. Now that is depressing! A drone couldn't do macro shots either and couldn't (not yet anyway) sync with flash. I am happy to trade a drone with your latest Hasselblad or PhaseOne kit. ; )

I'm not sure that I'd like to be in a room where one of those big drones is being used instead of a crane.

Edmund
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kers

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2016, 10:38:59 am »

I'm not sure that I'd like to be in a room where one of those big drones is being used instead of a crane.

Edmund

the word DRONE reminds me of having a headache - and i am sure it will happen with constantly more than 50 around ( on a sunny in principle noiseless day)
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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2016, 11:19:07 am »

Retired now, I've shot a lot of helicopter aerials, mostly with a Tyler Middle Mount. 
I see the current work done by drones and I'm wild with envy.  They do stuff we could only dream of. 
If my BFP hadn't just died, I'd be buying myself one, just for fun.
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Paul2660

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2016, 11:57:02 am »

What has bothered me from the start on this post, is that it's implied that a 4K video still from any drone can compare to a 80MP or even 36MP still from a modern DSLR or Phase One back.  Personally I don't believe there is any way it can, no matter what video camera/lens you have.  I realize that the photographer is not using a GoPro, (the standard of the industry), but please go back and take a shot from that low end 80MP IQ180 with any lens in your inventory, then take that excellent 4K still and then uprez it to the size of the 80MP file, also please stay at 300ppi.  Please now compare the files at 100% view or even print size.  There is no way a 4K video still or even a still from a 12MP drone will hold up.  If you are only interested in web posting, facebook, intagram etc. sure the files will look very close.  But if you are working on a print say 20 x 30 or 24 x 36, the 12MP file from the drone especially if it's from a 4K still will more than likely fall apart. It has to be uprez'd as in native mode the 4K still was captured as a jpg, at 72ppi and in sRGB colorspace.   No matter the camera/lens, for 1500.00 the sensor is not going to be very large in size more than likely not even the size of micro 4/3's.  I have yet to find any software interpolation that can take a native 36MP D810 file to the same quality as a native 80MP IQ180 image, not at 360ppi and printed.  You can get close but anytime you interpolate you lose, at least to me and I have tried them all. Which is why since 2003 I have always stitched, to reach more native resolution without interpolation.

I will agree that drones give a unique perspective on photography and have become common on most sets, (Discovery Channel, History Channel, ESPN, Nat Geo to name a few) but also please note that the vast majority of these shoots are pans, most often moving from near to far or vise versa and moving very fast so that you can't even begin to look at the details in the background. The eye is easily fooled with motion and you can get away with a lot, but just freeze one of those frames then look.  These details are soft, even at 4K.  The optics are not there yet mainly due to both weight and cost.  Sure you can now mount a 100MP Phase One back on a drone, but make sure you have a great insurance policy as it's not a matter of if you will crash but when.  I have worked
 with several very highly rated (rated in both flight and photography) drone shooters and I have seen the stills, no more needs to be said. 

Sadly, in the US, drones have taken on a bad name. I was into drones long before they became "in", and was flying with first person view before that was common also. It's great, and the features it offers are excellent.  Great business for Farmers (field surveys), real estate.surveys etc. But instead of using this technology in the correct format, instead someone has to be the first person to loop Delicate Arch, or fly out over the Grand Canyon, or film the local college football game or fly over the White house, or use the drone around the local airport. All stupid and irresponsible, that stupid it what sticks. All it takes is one serious crash and then all bets are off unless it's being flown in a closed environment. Drones are also by nature quite loud, and the larger they get the louder they get. Using one in pubic where other people are near by should be taken with full regard to how the other people want to hear the constant high pitch sound of a 6 or 4 engine drone hovering overhead. Most times, this is not done. Where as I don't know of any still camera that makes enough noise, even a MF XF that you would be bothering someone who is standing 10 feet or even 5 feet away.

Sorry to sound a bit harsh as I try to stay on the positive, just can't on this subject.  I just can't agree that the platforms mentioned in the first post are on equal terms and can deliver the same quality output.

Paul C

« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 08:09:01 am by Paul2660 »
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Paul Caldwell
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rogerxnz

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2016, 05:19:22 am »

Drones can operate at the edges of the day just as well as other cameras. Drones can be affected by strong winds and rain but so are conventional cameras, although probably to a lesser degree. 

The Putangirua Pinnacles image I uploaded was shot with 100 ISO at 1/800 sec and f2.8. There is no evidence of vibration.

The image is eminently usable. As someone said, I think, creativity and new perspectives will beat resolution any day. In any event, using a drone does not have to mean low resolution. There are drones capable of carrying DSLRs and a video has already been posted of a drone carrying P1's latest XF camera and a 100 MP back.

If you use a "proper" camera, you can have automatic exposure. So, the problem that another poster mentioned of over-, and under-, exposure can be avoided. 

I think drones have a lot to offer despite your concerns.
Roger


 
Most landscape photographs are done at the edge of the day, or in the extreme weather, rarely in broad and bright daylight. Drones strike me as fair-weather tools, however. Given the vibrations, you'd need a very high shutter speed, thus high ISO. So, the end result might be a phenomenal viewpoint, but with a disappointing, broad-daylight lighting, or a noisy image. Or I am missing something?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 04:52:44 pm by rogerxnz »
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Roger Hayman
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2016, 08:14:00 am »

Drones can operate at the edges of the day .... 

Just how? That's a tripod territory. Or high ISO.

Christoph B.

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2016, 09:47:52 am »

Just how? That's a tripod territory. Or high ISO.

well - as he said - fast lens, wide open.... f2.8.

Not my landscape style but to each his/her own :)
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Paul2660

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2016, 10:16:51 am »

Most cameras on drones today are fixed on the aperture, mostly F 2.8.  Protune on the Hero Black GoPro offers some changes, but I don't believe aperture is one of them.  Thus you tend to get totally blown highlights in transitions, i.e. clouds on bright day.  You see this all the time in videos from drones, it's just become accepted as part of it.  You can change the ISO speed which helps some, but the best solution I ever found as add an ND filter.  As I write this, I am sure there is a Inspire camera or some other one that now has an adjustable aperture, but still the vast majority of the shots taken are at F 2.8 fixed. 

For the fact it's a fixed F 2.8 what you get can be very good, I will leave it at that.

Paul C
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Paul Caldwell
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2016, 03:36:01 pm »

Hi,

I think that you can use real cameras with drones. They add new perspectives, just like a fisheye or telephoto lens. I guess we can buy a decent drone for the cost of two helicopter flights.

Best regards
Erik

Most cameras on drones today are fixed on the aperture, mostly F 2.8.  Protune on the Hero Black GoPro offers some changes, but I don't believe aperture is one of them.  Thus you tend to get totally blown highlights in transitions, i.e. clouds on bright day.  You see this all the time in videos from drones, it's just become accepted as part of it.  You can change the ISO speed which helps some, but the best solution I ever found as add an ND filter.  As I write this, I am sure there is a Inspire camera or some other one that now has an adjustable aperture, but still the vast majority of the shots taken are at F 2.8 fixed. 

For the fact it's a fixed F 2.8 what you get can be very good, I will leave it at that.

Paul C
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Erik Kaffehr
 

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #54 on: February 23, 2016, 05:03:35 pm »

well - as he said - fast lens, wide open.... f2.8.

Sure, you can take dawn or twilight landscape photos handheld too, no stinky tripod needed. F/2.8 and be there... with a couple of thousands ISO  ;)

But that's not how most people shoot landscapes (unless you are a tornado chaser).

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2016, 02:11:04 am »

Thanks for your insights, Paul.

I neither agree nor disagree. What I think is that drones make new perspectives possible. Things I always wanted to do. And no, I don't fly drones.

Regarding quality, I have seen some high quality video. You are right, stills are something different. Obviously, you, me and say Bobby McGee may have widely different opinions about what is usable. (Sorry for the joke)

To that comes the issues you mentioned, need for permits and the extra gear to carry.

But, properly used in a proper context, I am pretty sure drones can be a great tool.

Best regards
Erik

What has bothered me from the start on this post, is that it's implied that a 4K video still from any drone can compare to a 80MP or even 36MP still from a modern DSLR or Phase One back.  Personally I don't believe there is any way it can, no matter what video camera/lens you have.  I realize that the photographer is not using a GoPro, (the standard of the industry), but please go back and take a shot from that low end 80MP IQ180 with any lens in your inventory, then take that excellent 4K still and then uprez it to the size of the 80MP file, also please stay at 300ppi.  Please now compare the files at 100% view or even print size.  There is no way a 4K video still or even a still from a 12MP drone will hold up.  If you are only interested in web posting, facebook, intagram etc. sure the files will look very close.  But if you are working on a print say 20 x 30 or 24 x 36, the 12MP file from the drone especially if it's from a 4K still will more than likely fall apart. It has to be uprez'd as in native mode the 4K still was captured as a jpg, at 72ppi and in sRGB colorspace.   No matter the camera/lens, for 1500.00 the sensor is not going to be very large in size more than likely not even the size of micro 4/3's.  I have yet to find any software interpolation that can take a native 36MP D810 file to the same quality as a native 80MP IQ180 image, not at 360ppi and printed.  You can get close but anytime you interpolate you lose, at least to me and I have tried them all. Which is why since 2003 I have always stitched, to reach more native resolution without interpolation.

I will agree that drones give a unique perspective on photography and have become common on most sets, (Discovery Channel, History Channel, ESPN, Nat Geo to name a few) but also please note that the vast majority of these shoots are pans, most often moving from near to far or vise versa and moving very fast so that you can't even begin to look at the details in the background. The eye is easily fooled with motion and you can get away with a lot, but just freeze one of those frames then look.  These details are soft, even at 4K.  The optics are not there yet mainly due to both weight and cost.  Sure you can now mount a 100MP Phase One back on a drone, but make sure you have a great insurance policy as it's not a matter of if you will crash but when.  I have worked
 with several very highly rated (rated in both flight and photography) drone shooters and I have seen the stills, no more needs to be said. 

Sadly, in the US, drones have taken on a bad name. I was into drones long before they became "in", and was flying with first person view before that was common also. It's great, and the features it offers are excellent.  Great business for Farmers (field surveys), real estate.surveys etc. But instead of using this technology in the correct format, instead someone has to be the first person to loop Delicate Arch, or fly out over the Grand Canyon, or film the local college football game or fly over the White house, or use the drone around the local airport. All stupid and irresponsible, that stupid it what sticks. All it takes is one serious crash and then all bets are off unless it's being flown in a closed environment. Drones are also by nature quite loud, and the larger they get the louder they get. Using one in pubic where other people are near by should be taken with full regard to how the other people want to hear the constant high pitch sound of a 6 or 4 engine drone hovering overhead. Most times, this is not done. Where as I don't know of any still camera that makes enough noise, even a MF XF that you would be bothering someone who is standing 10 feet or even 5 feet away.

Sorry to sound a bit harsh as I try to stay on the positive, just can't on this subject.  I just can't agree that the platforms mentioned in the first post are on equal terms and can deliver the same quality output.

Paul C
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rogerxnz

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2016, 03:34:30 am »

I think it is a DJI Phantom Professional drone with 4K video. Is that enough detail because I can find more.
Roger

Roger, can I ask what model drone your son is using?

Still cameras held in the hand will always be my first choice for nearly any serious photographic need, but I'm not averse to exploring something new...
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 04:38:39 pm by rogerxnz »
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Roger Hayman
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rogerxnz

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2016, 03:38:19 am »

Yes, I think the legal limits on using drones are a valid concern. Best to get in now before the limits become fixed and enforced!

Seriously, there is a real risk that your images may be unusable because they breach someone's privacy and/or land rights. So, you might have to destroy your book's print run or tell your client to cancel their advertising campaign and re-shoot their photo material and have to pay damages for trespassing or breach of privacy (even if the images are not used).

Alternatively, you might have to sell your house to buy the rights you or your client need to continue.
Roger


Drones in most Countries are very limited. I had one before they were popular, even then I decided there was no legal way to make a decent profit shooting stills for my clients. Use one near buildings or people eventualy you will get jumped on by the law.
I can see the day when most people will of had enough of drones buzzing around their heads, peeping over the garden wall etc expect even more regs to control the use.
I was at a firework display on new years day. Someone decided to film it from a little Phantom, A/ it was illegal to fly within a crowd,  B/ it was pis sing people off no end.
There is no reason why in the past you could not of hired a cherry picker or helicopter for a unique view, different than a drone but still different than Street level
As the public become educated as to what is or isn't legal, flying a drone will become even more difficult.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 04:46:15 pm by rogerxnz »
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Roger Hayman
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rogerxnz

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #58 on: February 24, 2016, 04:57:51 pm »

The Pinnacles shot I posted was done at 100 ISO and it is well-exposed on a less than full sunshine day. If you increase the ISO to 400, you can cope with -2 stops of light.

I think that gives quite a good range of light conditions to work with. MFDB with CMOS sensors can go a lot higher than 400 ISO and get good results.
Roger

 
Just how? That's a tripod territory. Or high ISO.
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Roger Hayman
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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #59 on: February 25, 2016, 07:15:12 am »

I think it is a DJI Phantom Professional drone with 4K video. Is that enough detail because I can find more.
Roger

Thanks, Roger!  That's enough... found it.  I think I might try this at some point.  I don't think it would ever amount to anything more than 'nibbling around the edges' vis-a-vis serious photography.  But as a hobby in and of itself - I used to be deeply into model rocketry and always meant to get around to RC planes - it might be quite fun.

Thanks...
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