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Author Topic: VERY depressed. Help needed!  (Read 13823 times)

rogerxnz

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VERY depressed. Help needed!
« on: January 31, 2016, 04:50:28 pm »

I am very depressed! Like many photographers here, I have tens of thousands of dollars invested in medium format digital equipment including a P180, a Linhof Techno and an H2 with many lenses and other "essentials". A recent photo expedition with one of my sons has revealed that none of my stuff cannot compete with the 12MP images from my son's drone and its 4K video lens, all of which cost less than $1,500. 

The drone produced unique and awesome images because of the different viewpoints and angles that it can easily provide. Not only that, most of it can be done from the convenience of the roadside or river bed. You do not need to keep the drone in sight and it can be up to a kilometre away. No need to lug heavy backpacks of gear up mountains.

I now realize that, no matter how much money I throw at my gear, I will never be able to get the amazing images that a drone can effortlessly produce.

I guess that there is only a short time before everyone has a drone. Maybe, there is only, say, three years to benefit from the uniqueness of drone viewpoints. I also expect that, if everyone throws away their still cameras and buys a drone, the sky will be full of them and we will be having drone wars. Not to mention the restrictions against using drones over private property, national reserves, and so on, and the height limits.

So, 12MP images outclassing 80MP MFDB images based on on image content with no way for the 80MP images to exceed, or even emulate, because they cannot get to the same viewpoint and the hardware cannot be used with drones because they do not take video!

I would be interested in your comments, especially, if you can cure my depression.
Roger

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Roger Hayman
Wellington, New Zealand

AreBee

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2016, 04:55:38 pm »

Roger,

Quote
No need to lug heavy backpacks of gear up mountains... I would be interested in your comments, especially, if you can cure my depression.

A drone cannot replace the experience of witnessing the view firsthand - having lugged a heavy backpack of gear up a mountain or not.

Consider yourself cured.
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rogerxnz

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2016, 05:28:03 pm »

But that is my main point, I can never have the experience you mention because I cannot get to the points in the sky from which the drone takes its pictures.

Simply, neither I, nor my cameras, can fly!

I am far from cured but thank you for trying.
Roger


Roger,

A drone cannot replace the experience of witnessing the view firsthand - having lugged a heavy backpack of gear up a mountain or not.

Consider yourself cured.
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Roger Hayman
Wellington, New Zealand

landscapephoto

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2016, 05:29:40 pm »

The solution is to hang a P1 100MP camera to a drone, as shown here: https://youtu.be/N2b8mjhLsx8
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Theodoros

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2016, 05:36:43 pm »

I am very depressed! Like many photographers here, I have tens of thousands of dollars invested in medium format digital equipment including a P180, a Linhof Techno and an H2 with many lenses and other "essentials". A recent photo expedition with one of my sons has revealed that none of my stuff cannot compete with the 12MP images from my son's drone and its 4K video lens, all of which cost less than $1,500. 

The drone produced unique and awesome images because of the different viewpoints and angles that it can easily provide. Not only that, most of it can be done from the convenience of the roadside or river bed. You do not need to keep the drone in sight and it can be up to a kilometre away. No need to lug heavy backpacks of gear up mountains.

I now realize that, no matter how much money I throw at my gear, I will never be able to get the amazing images that a drone can effortlessly produce.

I guess that there is only a short time before everyone has a drone. Maybe, there is only, say, three years to benefit from the uniqueness of drone viewpoints. I also expect that, if everyone throws away their still cameras and buys a drone, the sky will be full of them and we will be having drone wars. Not to mention the restrictions against using drones over private property, national reserves, and so on, and the height limits.

So, 12MP images outclassing 80MP MFDB images based on on image content with no way for the 80MP images to exceed, or even emulate, because they cannot get to the same viewpoint and the hardware cannot be used with drones because they do not take video!

I would be interested in your comments, especially, if you can cure my depression.
Roger

The answer is rather simple... it can be summed up to the following sentence: "Photography has nothing to do with MP count, sharpness or equipment cost... It rather has to do with talent, imagination and correct use of tooling" as to achieve the visualization behind the subject..." IMO, you should be proud of your son and twice proud for yourself if he can beat you by using lesser (in value) tools...
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rogerxnz

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2016, 05:47:19 pm »

That's very cool!

Could I do that with the 100MP back on an H2? I just want stills, I think.

The solution is to hang a P1 100MP camera to a drone, as shown here: https://youtu.be/N2b8mjhLsx8
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Roger Hayman
Wellington, New Zealand

rogerxnz

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2016, 05:49:34 pm »

I agree and that is my other point.

Freshness and uniqueness trumps just MP...no matter how many you have.

Peter
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Roger Hayman
Wellington, New Zealand

Ray Cox

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2016, 06:12:23 pm »

It's a cruel world alright. The value of my MF equipment has dropped faster than crude oil prices! I have even considered photographing a potato to recoup my losses. Perhaps if I use a drone for a unique perspective !! :-\ 
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rogerxnz

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2016, 06:25:33 pm »

You could. Just put the spud on your head and fly the drone above and around your head with the camera looking down at 45º.

Very easy!

 
It's a cruel world alright. The value of my MF equipment has dropped faster than crude oil prices! I have even considered photographing a potato to recoup my losses. Perhaps if I use a drone for a unique perspective !! :-\
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Roger Hayman
Wellington, New Zealand

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2016, 06:42:37 pm »

Unique views can stay unique only for so long. Like Cokin tobacco grad ND, early shadow recovery sliders, HDR, etc. In the end, the only thing that survives is a photographer's, not machine's, vision.

Endeavour

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2016, 06:44:58 pm »

same thing could be said for those production companies who would film in car footage for motorsport & TV.
The complex (and expensive) rigs they were able to rent out - suddenly got trashed when you could pick up a GoPro and do it yourself. Even major players like Top Gear, who have a conciuos style to their shoots, used GoPros

Drones are a bit of a novelty right now, and you may be able to get some income from doing a drone shoot. but within 2-3 years everyone could have one and that market dries up - it'll be the HDR of the digital age. Or the lens flare of the CGI age

besides, you aint going to get much use out of a drone for wedding, portraiture, architecture, fine art or glamour sessions

they are a cool fad
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rogerxnz

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2016, 07:17:43 pm »

I think I may have put too much focus on "unique" in my above posts. It is not just the unique view that a drone can provide which is so compelling. A drone can provide a better or more interesting view in many cases than we can get from the ground. Too often, we confront an object, such as a mountain or a tree and take a photo from where we stand. In many of those cases, I reckon a better view would be from a point about 2/3 up the height of the object with the lens at about 30º so you can see the object in better relationship to its surroundings.

That height would often be beyond the reach of ladders, even if you happened to have one handy. Sometimes, we are able to climb a nearby hill to get into a good position but the hill could be too far away for our purposes. A drone removes all these issues.

Having the camera in the air looking down, rather than up or across, could avoid having annoying burnt-out skies in shot.

Also, with landscapes, you might have to travel long distances to get into a good position in relation to the direction of the light. With a drone, you just fly it to the right position and you do not have to move at all.

So, think of whether drones can offer better and more interesting images rather than just unique images. I suggest you look at your images and ask whether they would be improved by having the camera at a different position in the air.

 
Unique views can stay unique only for so long. Like Cokin tobacco grad ND, early shadow recovery sliders, HDR, etc. In the end, the only thing that survives is a photographer's, not machine's, vision.
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Roger Hayman
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2016, 08:35:49 pm »

Unique, better, more interesting... same difference.

It is not that we are seeing aerial shots for the first time. Yann Arthus-Bertrand made a career out of it many years ago. When I was in Kodak in the late nineties, we hired a paraglider to shoot film scenes for the Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture.

Like with many other things in technology, things are just made easier and more accessible, not necessarily better or more interesting. Aerial or drone photography has its place of course, but it is not going to replace standard photography.

Human-viewpoint photography has one advantage that machine-one does not: it puts the viewer in the same shoes as the photographer, allowing the viewer to identify easier with the experience.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2016, 08:38:56 pm »

Anyone having shot from a heli knows you are very right.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 02:15:51 am by BernardLanguillier »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2016, 01:25:23 am »

Hi Slobodan,

I think it goes a bit deeper. One thing is that we are still essentially stuck with 2MP images when viewed on screen. Well 4K is 8 MP and actually a bit more as the format is cropped.

We don't need high MP, unless we print and print large.

Now, flying gives a new dimension, one that we have not seen before. And that gives a lot of different perspectives (POVs). So drones give something new.

Drones can give us motion and motion is in a sense more forgiving. Our vision combines several images so a motion image is often better than a single image from the same data stream.

I would say that drone based imaging is a new visual art, essentially defeating gravity. It also offers smooth camera motion. Impressive technology.

Drone based filming is different from normal motion in that it probably uses natural light, while I am under the impression that traditional motion often uses quite elaborate lighting.

We have a guy here in Nyköping who was an early convert to digital, shoot a scanning back in the studio and he was also an early adopter of fulll frame CMOS. Like 5-6 years ago he started arial shooting with a home built drone. I think he is doing good business and save helikopter hours.

Best regards
Erik

Ps. No, I don't think I go into drones. Stay firmly on the ground.

Unique views can stay unique only for so long. Like Cokin tobacco grad ND, early shadow recovery sliders, HDR, etc. In the end, the only thing that survives is a photographer's, not machine's, vision.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

landscapephoto

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2016, 02:00:10 am »

Quote
The solution is to hang a P1 100MP camera to a drone, as shown here: https://youtu.be/N2b8mjhLsx8

That's very cool!

Could I do that with the 100MP back on an H2? I just want stills, I think.

I see no reason why it would not work.

Really there is no object to this discussion. If you want a drone, get one. If you want a drone for a MF camera, they are available, as the cited youtube video shows.
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razrblck

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2016, 02:42:05 am »

Take the limitations of not having a drone as a challenge, and keep close to your heart all the small (and hopefully big) goals you achieve. Plan your shots, plan for the light, choose your gear carefully so you don't have to lug around everything. Plan for a vision, an idea, rather than a pretty sight. It's nice to hear "cool picture, bro", but it's even better when people you know want a print of it to hang in their home and they show it off to their friends because it means something to them. Get more involved in what you make and think less about what piece of gear you have (or not).

And most of all, have fun.
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torger

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2016, 03:24:30 am »

Consider what type of images you shoot and like to shoot. If you like to shoot grand views from mountain tops and similar, a drone can indeed produce fresh and unique viewpoints. On the other hand if you like to make very large prints of those grand views it doesn't hurt to have those 80MP.

A Linhof Techno is not great at shooting wildlife. You don't have long reach enough on the tele lenses, and it's slow to set up and shoot. Likewise it's a really bad choice to attach it to a drone. It's a big mess to choose it close to the ground and strongly angled viewpoints which you easily get with hand-held 135 is hard to do with the view camera. The limitations are many and about the same as a classic large format 4x5" view camera.

If you want to shoot a genre of images that doesn't match your camera's strong points you have the wrong camera. A tech camera is more narrow than most other cameras, it's strong points is movements and image quality, and with the right mindset you can also turn the slow workflow into a zen-like experience that contributes to your creativity and enjoyment.

Personally I like to shoot "intimate landscape", that is fairly close scenes where the corners of the frame need to be exactly placed. A drone would totally suck at that, while the view camera excels and I get good use of the flexible movements of the Linhof Techno which I'm also using. From time to time I do shoot those "grand views" too, movements are still useful in that case (usually just rise/fall and a bit of tilt), and you get very high resolution images that holds up well for large prints. A drone cannot do that (yet).

It is true that if your goal is to make "cool images" that gets lots of "likes" on the social networks those drone images, or even better videos, will likely be more successful than thought-provoking intimate landscapes or grand views with a classic strict and elegant perspective.

But if you do like drone photography, do try it. The simpler systems cost is like a lens cap for medium format ;)

Another alternative is to shoot with your Hasselblad H system from an airplane. You rent a pilot and do some suitable flyovers. Swedish photographer Hans Strand has done a lot of this work using his Hasselblad (renting the pilot/airplane, he's not flying himself), doing flyovers in Iceland and in the Swedish mountains for example. Images here: http://www.hansstrand.com/Hans_Strand/Aerials_1.html

Good examples of intimate landscapes shot using the strengths of a view camera (actually a 4x5" camera in this case, but Linhof Techno would do equally well) can be found at David Ward's website: http://www.into-the-light.com/gallery/ those images wouldn't be shot well with a drone...

Also look through your current images which you like. How many of those could have been better if shot using a drone? My guess is you will find that few of them could.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 04:57:55 am by torger »
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Christoph B.

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2016, 09:43:33 am »

The drone produced unique and awesome images because of the different viewpoints and angles that it can easily provide. Not only that, most of it can be done from the convenience of the roadside or river bed. You do not need to keep the drone in sight and it can be up to a kilometre away. No need to lug heavy backpacks of gear up mountains.

I now realize that, no matter how much money I throw at my gear, I will never be able to get the amazing images that a drone can effortlessly produce.

I guess that there is only a short time before everyone has a drone. Maybe, there is only, say, three years to benefit from the uniqueness of drone viewpoints. I also expect that, if everyone throws away their still cameras and buys a drone, the sky will be full of them and we will be having drone wars. Not to mention the restrictions against using drones over private property, national reserves, and so on, and the height limits.

So, 12MP images outclassing 80MP MFDB images based on on image content with no way for the 80MP images to exceed, or even emulate, because they cannot get to the same viewpoint and the hardware cannot be used with drones because they do not take video!

I would be interested in your comments, especially, if you can cure my depression.
Roger

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dww2nkN6siU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlOpsqBjWXY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlYKc_DSoOg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1cG1tLfXuM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO4q0GK4ZHg

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: VERY depressed. Help needed!
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2016, 09:57:26 am »

... If you want to shoot a genre of images that doesn't match your camera's strong points you have the wrong camera...

Smart observation. I would add that if you choose a camera because you've seen what somebody else can do with it, you have the wrong camera.
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