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Author Topic: Shooting with an Aptus in the cold  (Read 3751 times)

minicoop1985

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Shooting with an Aptus in the cold
« on: January 29, 2016, 10:21:16 am »

So I was wondering. From what I understand, in weather colder than 32 F/0 C, the electronics in the Aptus back can freeze/start acting up due to the cold and the fan blowing air that's TOO cold over the electronics. Soooo I had an idea. Is it feasible to put some tape over a portion of the intake port on the back to reduce airflow and allow the electronics to warm up, or is this an absolutely horrible idea? Thanks!
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Michael Long
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David Horton

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Re: Shooting with an Aptus in the cold
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2016, 11:51:00 am »

A very bad idea in my view.
I have often used Aptus 75 in very cold (but not extreme) weather conditions without difficulty, given reasonable precautions taken in inclement weather. Extra batteries kept in warm conditions are a very useful addition also.
I also have Credo 60 (unventilated) and regret omission of mechanical ventilation when Leaf was absorbed by Phase 1.
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pixjohn

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Re: Shooting with an Aptus in the cold
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2016, 01:03:39 pm »



 Where did you hear that the aptus back does not work well in the cold?
I shot in -7 last month  in Montana with no problems, I will say the  batteries did not love the cold. I also shot with a iq140 that also worked fine except the batteries did not like the cold.
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minicoop1985

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Re: Shooting with an Aptus in the cold
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2016, 04:43:10 pm »

It was either here or another forum where someone was stating that the back wouldn't handle below 32* F/0 C. Seemed to make sense to me.

How well sealed are the electronics? I've got a snowstorm coming that I was hoping to shoot in.
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Michael Long
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UlfKrentz

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Re: Shooting with an Aptus in the cold
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2016, 05:51:20 pm »

It was either here or another forum where someone was stating that the back wouldn't handle below 32* F/0 C. Seemed to make sense to me.

How well sealed are the electronics? I've got a snowstorm coming that I was hoping to shoot in.

Never heard of any problems regarding the vents other than a fan failing- I remember reading of somebody's Aptus having problems in the cold on this board, too but it seemed to be a single unit. I did not shoot a lot in extreme cold but the times I did I had no problems other than keeping the batteries alive. I would´nt be worried too much. Cheers!
« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 05:55:21 pm by UlfKrentz »
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torger

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Re: Shooting with an Aptus in the cold
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2016, 03:56:59 am »

It was probably I you remember, I had one Aptus 75 that started to behave erratically below like +15C, I then paid for a full E-box replacement (everything except the sensor unit) so I got a virtually new Aptus, which worked better but still started to behave erratically below +7C. Asking around among other Aptus users on the forums I found a few that had problems above +30C and below freezing (which really hadn't reported about it until I explicitly asked), as well as many users that had no problems.

After a loooooong history with Leaf/Phase One support and non-existent dealer support here in Sweden (it was very difficult to get adequate help) I finally got a complete replacement unit, and that worked without issues in -30C. The really poor support I got from dealer/Leaf until top level management finally stepped in made my case sort of a soap opera in this forum, so I guess many have some memory of it.

Leaf themselves or dealers have never explicitly stated that the Aptus is less reliable than other backs, but I've seen statements like "if you need reliability you should get a P+ series" and other minor indications that the dealers actually know about that it can have issues.

My conclusion from other user's reports, my own experience and subtle indications from dealer statements is that there is likely some considerable sample variation in the Aptus series, that is some backs have issues, others don't. Do I know 100% sure that this is the case? No. The other users could have had bad luck and I even some extra bad luck. I don't have any official statistics so I don't know if it's 1 out of 10 that has problems or 1 out of 100, but I find it highly likely that this is the case so when I consider an Aptus I prefer knowing if that particular instance have been used in the type of conditions I need it to work in, that is -30C. I'm not even sure if dealers really have full understanding of how reliable this back in these conditions as it's not very typical use case to shoot these medium format backs in tough outdoor conditions. Studio work is the traditional use case and still the most common I imagine. Perhaps it's only 1 out of 10 backs or even less that ever faces freezing temperatures? If that is the case and 25% has issues in cold weather then only 0.1 * 0.25 = only 1 out of 40 users will experience problems, and hence you won't hear about it often despite that it's high risk for those users that actually do shoot in these conditions. Had I shot my first back in room temperature only I would have never discovered any issue with it.

In any case I'm prepared to make a bet. If we shoot 50 Aptus backs in -30C and 50 Phase One P+ backs in the same condition, I can almost assure you that some of those Aptus backs will start behaving erratically after 30 minutes or so, certainly not all of them but I would think more than 5 of them maybe as much as half, I don't know, while probably none of the P+ will have problems. Of course this can never be tested for real, but just as an example of that I think Aptus means a raised risk, but not guarantee, that you can have issues in cold weather.

I have shot with older Hasselblad backs which had fans in very cold conditions and they worked just fine, as well as my latest Aptus, so I don't think the fan is a problem as such. If the board just have all components with top quality properly mounted then it will work out fine, so I don't think you should consider doing anything special with the fan. What you need is a "good copy" of the Aptus. If it's bad I don't think any fan trickery will solve the problem, I mean my two bad copies started to behave erratically below room temperature but above freezing.

The fan is open straight into the electronics (just as the CF bay door), but the sensor unit itself is separate and quite well sealed. In this thread at getdpi http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/52991-aptus-internal-battery.html you can find photos where an Aptus back is dismantled and put together again (to change clock battery) which quite well show what's sealed and not. You should surely avoid getting water into the open vents.

I eventually switched to Hasselblad not because I was unhappy with the Aptus (the good copy I finally got worked very well in very cold conditions) but because the Hasselblad had the Kodak 50 megapixel sensor which is the best you can get for the Schneider Digitar wides I'm using on my tech cam. I could certainly get an Aptus again, but not without either checking that the previous owner had used it successfully in cold weather or if bought through a dealer get some sort of guarantee that I could return it if it should start behaving erratically in the cold. With the Hassies and Phase Ones and indeed the newer Leafs (Credo) the likelihood of issues is so low that I'm prepared to take the risk just as with a pro DSLR.

As you surely know all backs and most cameras are only rated to 0C, so you are dependent on goodwill if you get failures below that. High quality electronics works well way beyond spec so we're used to not really look into it we just assume that they work, but if you do get issues that no-more-than-0C-guarantee will jump at you. It's a bit like "weather sealing", if you get water damage issues it's the manufacturer that decides what's within spec or not. When dealing with the support when I got issues they clearly stated that they would not replace anything if it failed at -1C as they only guaranteed 0C, but I was "fortunate" enough that my backs failed in +7 - +15C.

This is strictly a user-to-user advice share. I'm not into trash talking Leaf, but as I suspect that there are issues I would tell my fellow user that, and I hope the above gives some insight into why I'm a bit more suspicious about the Aptus series than others, without the possibility to 100% sure know if there is a specific issue or not.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 04:30:14 am by torger »
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minicoop1985

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Re: Shooting with an Aptus in the cold
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2016, 11:26:59 am »

Wow, thanks guys. Torger, I really appreciate that. I think I'll only be taking one photo in the snow, and that's in a covered location. I guess I shouldn't panic if something goes slightly awry, then, since I can expect it to warm up and work properly in a studio setting.


That thread showing how the back is sealed makes me worry quite a bit. Like I said, it'll be one shot in a covered location then I'm outtie 5000. Maybe I should put a bag on the camera while transporting it to the location, then put it back on when transporting it back to the car. That would make sense to me.
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Michael Long
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Re: Shooting with an Aptus in the cold
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2016, 12:06:18 pm »

With all due respect to Anders, I wouldn't overstress  about these backs. I'm sure he's right about his experience, and there is the matter of the specifications, but  I've had mine out in 0º F, in the snow, Alps and other mountains, Amazonian jungles, without issues due to the back. Actually, any issues have to do with operator error (from lack of sleep/oxygen and sheer terror).

They are however products of small volume manufacture and susceptible to sample variations. And they are not like the DSLRS - MF digital gear can have the odd hiccup, requiring a restart... not uncommon, usually related to low battery power.  And he had particularly off putting experience until the right people weighed in. 
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Geoff

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Re: Shooting with an Aptus in the cold
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2016, 02:10:03 pm »

What Gigi said, we´re shooting Aptus backs for over a decade now, have been in the snow, on the beach and in the rain. We always got our job done. And yes, it was Torgers story I remembered. Leaf feels like being the redheaded stepchild since phase absorbed them. Torgers issues just happened when Leaf was bought by phase, that was a rollercoster period for Leaf after being owned by Kodak and cooperation with Sinar / Rollei. I still think they always had a great product and phase was interested in Leaf for a reason ;-)

minicoop1985

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Re: Shooting with an Aptus in the cold
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2016, 02:27:36 pm »

I'm very glad to hear this. Now I'm not second guessing my purchase any more.

Here's a question. If there's a good amount of dust in the back when I get it (hopefully tomorrow), how do I clean it out without dissecting the back? I'm handy with cameras, but only Hasselblad V series, really, and not electronic cameras.
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Michael Long
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Re: Shooting with an Aptus in the cold
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2016, 02:44:12 pm »

I'm very glad to hear this. Now I'm not second guessing my purchase any more.

Here's a question. If there's a good amount of dust in the back when I get it (hopefully tomorrow), how do I clean it out without dissecting the back? I'm handy with cameras, but only Hasselblad V series, really, and not electronic cameras.

Usually you won´t have any visible dust. Sometimes you need to clean the IR cover glass with an appropriate cleaning set. In case you find dust between the sensor and the IR cover you might be better off seeing a dealer though it´s only a few screws and we did it ourselves when it happened once. Dust inside the electronics, underneath the fan? Leave it where it is, if you feel uncomfortable gently blow it with air but avoid too high pressure. Have fun, the Aptus is a great device!

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Shooting with an Aptus in the cold
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2016, 02:48:54 pm »

Hi,

What you men by dust in the back? Dust on the sensor can be blown of. Residue may need wet cleaning. Hopefully you get a clean sensor.

You are not cleaning the sensor, just the IR-filter in front of it, but that filter is also quite expensive to exchange.

Dust in the fan I would not be upset about. On the fan you can use compressed air, but use it with some care.

Best regards
Erik


I'm very glad to hear this. Now I'm not second guessing my purchase any more.

Here's a question. If there's a good amount of dust in the back when I get it (hopefully tomorrow), how do I clean it out without dissecting the back? I'm handy with cameras, but only Hasselblad V series, really, and not electronic cameras.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

minicoop1985

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Re: Shooting with an Aptus in the cold
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2016, 05:11:13 pm »

I'm not too worried about dust on the IR filter. I was more concerned with dust in the back from the fan. I doubt there will be any dust in the sensor/under the IR filter, as the seller assured me he had never taken it off. I'm glad I have an IR camera (old superzoom I removed the IR filter from and got a IR-only filter for) so I have no desire to remove the IR filter, if that's even a thing.
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Michael Long
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torger

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Re: Shooting with an Aptus in the cold
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2016, 04:03:52 am »

Should be said that you can get erratic behavior on low battery, and if you have unsupported CF cards or CF cards that has been used in a different camera, a behavior you may not be used to if you come from a trusty DSLR. Leaf told me that there is no such thing as erratic behavior on low battery on the Aptus backs, but it's 100% bull and on that point there are many more users that have seen issues than have seen cold weather issues. While statements like that have made me doubt in Leaf's own reliability claims, you shouldn't get worried about that back behavior though, just make sure you have the right CF cards and fresh batteries. Likewise if you do get an erratic behavior due to cold weather it will work fine again when back in room temperature.

And as stated above, there are certainly copies that work well in both cold and hot conditions, I got one in the end.

"Shooting in the cold" is varying too. I could be out hiking for a few hours, having the camera set up for a while in the wind, making the gear really dead cold, and that made a lot of difference compared to shooting with the back still somewhat warm. With the backs that had issues it usually worked the first time I picked out and made a shot, but when hiking to the next location and picking it out again it would start behaving erratically (even with fresh batteries and the proper CF cards).

It may also be the case that the Aptus back is more sensitive when run on a tech camera like I did, it's then in an always-ready-mode and the fan is always running at full speed.

When I finally got a yet another replacement back all those issues were gone. The Aptus is a great back when it works, great value too. Many prefer their color to Phase One's. One reason I got an Aptus was that it's the only back of that generation that has working 100% sharpness check (useful for us ground glass focusing folks), the P+ series doesn't have that. The uncertainty is about how common the bad copies are, which noone really knows.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 04:21:31 am by torger »
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minicoop1985

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Re: Shooting with an Aptus in the cold
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2016, 04:45:38 pm »

Well, I have a result. I spent a good amount of time dinking around with menus while outside with it trying to figure out how to shoot with it (WAY overthought it) in blowing snow and 30 degree F temps. Had zero issues. I love the way this thing renders. It's stunning, even if the shot itself is far from it.

Leaf Aptus 22 test by Michael Long, on Flickr
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Michael Long
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Re: Shooting with an Aptus in the cold
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2016, 05:58:55 pm »

Nice to hear that you are happy!

Erik

Well, I have a result. I spent a good amount of time dinking around with menus while outside with it trying to figure out how to shoot with it (WAY overthought it) in blowing snow and 30 degree F temps. Had zero issues. I love the way this thing renders. It's stunning, even if the shot itself is far from it.

Leaf Aptus 22 test by Michael Long, on Flickr
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Erik Kaffehr
 

minicoop1985

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Re: Shooting with an Aptus in the cold
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2016, 11:51:33 am »

So last night, I took my Aptus downtown to take a couple shots. These were going to be 30 second exposures. Well, I used a freshly charged battery I had kept in my pocket all night (in warm places too). Got one shot out of it before it quit while trying to process a second. So when you guys say keep your batteries warm, you weren't kidding.
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Michael Long
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Re: Shooting with an Aptus in the cold
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2016, 01:02:51 pm »

For sure with an Aptus if you intend to use it in cold temps, it would be practical to give it a test run first before the real thing to see how your unit will hold up.

And regarding batteries, newer batteries will hold up better. It might be worth updating older batteries for that sort of project.


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minicoop1985

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Re: Shooting with an Aptus in the cold
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2016, 10:09:51 am »

New batteries it is!
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Michael Long
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