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Author Topic: Sony Mirrorless Market Share Down  (Read 6601 times)

JV

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Sony Mirrorless Market Share Down
« on: January 29, 2016, 08:21:03 am »

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razrblck

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Re: Sony Mirrorless Market Share Down
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2016, 10:53:19 am »

Sony can't sell A7 cameras to everyone. Their strategy is still very obscure, there is no clear roadmap just hopes and dreams. Who buys the A7 usually has a specific use for it, considering the price of the whole system.

Olympus covers a lot of market segments and they have recently been pushing a lot for the various Pen models to be more of an everyday camera or even a fashion accessory (thanks also to many fashion bloggers).

I'm not surprised Olympus got a lot of that market back, they have been putting out solid products in the past years and keep improving them. This also confirms what I've been seeing with my own eyes, namely that OM-D and Pen cameras are selling very well in stores.
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jwstl

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Re: Sony Mirrorless Market Share Down
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2016, 12:47:48 pm »

Hmmm... Not sure what to think of this...:
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/surprising-2015-japanese-sales-numbers-sony-shares-down-10/
I suspect we will soon see some price drops or "instant rebates" on the A7 series.
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JV

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Re: Sony Mirrorless Market Share Down
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2016, 12:49:00 pm »

I suspect we will soon see some price drops or "instant rebates" on the A7 series.

Or more emphasis on APS-C cameras again...
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Zorki5

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Re: Sony Mirrorless Market Share Down
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2016, 01:25:01 pm »

Or more emphasis on APS-C cameras again...

I wish...

Certain companies need to realize that APS-C is not a "stepping stone" to FF for many photographers. I for one went exactly the other way round, with my 5DII and all the L lenses now gathering dust, and my a6000 getting all the love.
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davidgp

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Re: Sony Mirrorless Market Share Down
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2016, 04:57:00 am »

I highly doubt you will see price drops in A7 cameras (more than "old" versions going cheap each time Sony releases a new camera, that being frank, they do it every year...). If you look to the slides in this article: http://www.dpreview.com/news/7918350694/sony-camera-and-sensor-business-units-report-drop-in-sales-in-2015 you will see they careful point out that they sell less cameras because the shift of focus to high end market now... They say they are selling more of those cameras...

High end means more margins, and Sony expect this year to sell less units of cameras but getting a bit more of money... So I will say the focus will still be high end market...


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Hywel

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Re: Sony Mirrorless Market Share Down
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2016, 05:55:44 am »

Market share down, but profit up, apparently:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-q3-financial-report-less-sales-but-increased-profit/

So not exactly a catastrophe.

Cheers, Hywel
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pegelli

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Re: Sony Mirrorless Market Share Down
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2016, 06:36:47 am »

Market share and turnover are just indicators.

Final success is measured by margin, profit and return on capital employed.
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pieter, aka pegelli

JV

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Re: Sony Mirrorless Market Share Down
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2016, 11:15:42 am »

All of the above is obviously true but I am not sure whether I am entirely buying it...

Unlike companies like Leica, Sony is not a company that is interested in niche markets...

They want to be Canon or Nikon.  They want world domination and this simply isn't it...!
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Sony Mirrorless Market Share Down
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2016, 12:06:19 pm »

Hi,

I would say good news for Olympus. A bit surprised Canon is #3 in mirrorless.

Olympus is 4/3, Sony both APS-C and full frame.

Using a small format, like 4/3 or APS-C and having an excellent set of lenses may be better than having both APS-C and full frame 24x36 with a mediocre set of lenses.

I am not that sure that full frame 24x36 makes a lot of sense unless we are printing larger than 16"x23" (A2).

Best regards
Erik

Hmmm... Not sure what to think of this...:
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/surprising-2015-japanese-sales-numbers-sony-shares-down-10/
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razrblck

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Re: Sony Mirrorless Market Share Down
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2016, 01:10:34 pm »

All of the above is obviously true but I am not sure whether I am entirely buying it...

Unlike companies like Leica, Sony is not a company that is interested in niche markets...

They want to be Canon or Nikon.  They want world domination and this simply isn't it...!

Sony makes a lot of stuff, not just cameras. If their camera business had to be closed down, their losses would be minimal. Most of their profit in the still photography sector comes from selling sensors anyway. Their video business is much more profitable, especially at the professional level, and they sell so much more stuff they sure don't have to worry about less camera sales in a very saturated market.
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BJL

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Sony Mirrorless Market Share Down – but profits are up
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2016, 03:28:01 pm »

In related news, Sony's latest financial report for cameras and sensors looks good on profits, because its product mix is moving up-scale, as we have heard form almost every camera maker.  It is selling fewer of the lower priced "compacts" – as with the whole industry – but has increased sales and profits on higher-end models.  In Japan at least, the BCN numbers suggest that the upshift is not just from compacts to ILCs, but also within ILCs from 24x16mm format to 36x24mm format.

To be optimistic, while not being bad news for Sony, it could be good news for two systems that I like: Micro Four Thirds and Fujifilm X. They could be benefitting in their more mainstream higher volume part of the ILC market by taking a single format seriously with good lens support, and with no hint of deprecating their chosen format as being only for entry-level ILC buyers and as a gateway on the road to the holy grail, "FF".

But I see no reason to conclude that one product mix strategy [Sony, Canon, Nikon] is better than the other [Olympus, Panasonic, Fujifilm]; anyway I hope that both options persist in the market.  As an analogy, compare Toyota and Honda, which both seem successful, but different. Honda leads Toyota on unit sales of motor vehicles, while Toyota leads on measures like revenue and profit – the trick is that Honda's unit sales are skewed towards "two-wheelers" while Toyota sells far more "four-wheelers". Both seem successful and viable in their different ways.
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John Camp

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Re: Sony Mirrorless Market Share Down
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2016, 12:17:36 am »

I suspect support (both consumer and sales) for APS-C will begin to dwindle. It has neither FF quality nor m4/3 compactness. As prices of sensors continue to slowly drop, APS-C won't have much of a price advantage, either. The advantages of compactness are noted in Kevin's review of the Pen-F. I also think medium format is in deep trouble, for one reason -- it's basically good for making huge prints. It has no advantage over either FF or even m4/3 when it comes to video display, even large UHD displays. As more and more commercial large prints move to video (and the price of video is dropping rapidly) I think a lot of commercial print display customers (like, say, Victoria's Secret) will go to video...I saw a 70+ inch UHD video display in Best Buy the other day for a little more than $3,000...Sending each store a file to be run on a video would probably be cheaper today than sending out a huge carton of over-sized prints to be put up...

As far as Sony is concerned, I think its products have been distinguished by one thing: the sensors. The cameras themselves (as machines) are sort of meh -- not nearly as creative, say, as the Pen-F or the GX8. And Sony has a history of dropping products that don't become dominant in their area. If Nikon and Canon and the m4/3 consortium continue to do okay, I think Sony could well decide to focus on sensor sales, and let the cameras go...sort of like Kodak and Fuji focused on film, and were never leading high-end cameras makers in the modern era. Sensor production is one field that Sony could dominate, but they might have difficulty doing that if Nikon, Canon, Fuji and other large companies like Panasonic fear that Sony will use the sensors as competitive weapons, and therefore continue their own separate sensor development. Sony might then do better with an announcement that they would drop their camera division, and sell sensors to anyone who wants them.
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Zorki5

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Re: Sony Mirrorless Market Share Down
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2016, 02:18:44 am »

I suspect support (both consumer and sales) for APS-C will begin to dwindle. It has neither FF quality nor m4/3 compactness.

<ahem> Are you sure about m4/3 compactness?

My camera of choice is Sony a6000. If I, say, had to switch to Panasonic, my pick (closest to a6000 in features that are important to me) would be GX8. Now lets compare there sizes:

http://camerasize.com/compare/#535,629

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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Sony Mirrorless Market Share Down
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2016, 02:55:58 am »

Hi,

I don't think Sony's spinoff producing sensors cares that much about Sony cameras, they make sensors for all possible customers, including Sony's imaging division. There is a lot of competition in the image sensor business and large sensors for photographic equipment is just a very small part of that market, but a profitable one.

So, Sony Imaging is a customer, just like Nikon, Fuji or Phase One. The customers will get the best devices for the best price.

I would guess that there is a lot more flexibility in sensor choice with CMOS as no analogue design is needed for modern CMOS-designs.

Best regards
Erik

I suspect support (both consumer and sales) for APS-C will begin to dwindle. It has neither FF quality nor m4/3 compactness. As prices of sensors continue to slowly drop, APS-C won't have much of a price advantage, either. The advantages of compactness are noted in Kevin's review of the Pen-F. I also think medium format is in deep trouble, for one reason -- it's basically good for making huge prints. It has no advantage over either FF or even m4/3 when it comes to video display, even large UHD displays. As more and more commercial large prints move to video (and the price of video is dropping rapidly) I think a lot of commercial print display customers (like, say, Victoria's Secret) will go to video...I saw a 70+ inch UHD video display in Best Buy the other day for a little more than $3,000...Sending each store a file to be run on a video would probably be cheaper today than sending out a huge carton of over-sized prints to be put up...

As far as Sony is concerned, I think its products have been distinguished by one thing: the sensors. The cameras themselves (as machines) are sort of meh -- not nearly as creative, say, as the Pen-F or the GX8. And Sony has a history of dropping products that don't become dominant in their area. If Nikon and Canon and the m4/3 consortium continue to do okay, I think Sony could well decide to focus on sensor sales, and let the cameras go...sort of like Kodak and Fuji focused on film, and were never leading high-end cameras makers in the modern era. Sensor production is one field that Sony could dominate, but they might have difficulty doing that if Nikon, Canon, Fuji and other large companies like Panasonic fear that Sony will use the sensors as competitive weapons, and therefore continue their own separate sensor development. Sony might then do better with an announcement that they would drop their camera division, and sell sensors to anyone who wants them.
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razrblck

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Re: Sony Mirrorless Market Share Down
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2016, 04:31:38 am »

I suspect support (both consumer and sales) for APS-C will begin to dwindle. It has neither FF quality nor m4/3 compactness.

<ahem> Are you sure about m4/3 compactness?

Speaking of this, the Sony RX1 line is the smallest digital full frame camera. I'm sure that Sony could just replace the fixed lens with the FE mount if they really wanted it.

Sensor size and flange distance have much more impact on lens size than body. Then again there are some full frame lenses out there that are very small in size, especially for rangefinder style cameras that are so close to digital mirrorless.

Olympus sells because it's a very nice system, with very nice lenses and great support.
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BJL

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compactness of complete working cameras, with lenses
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2016, 11:12:07 am »

<ahem> Are you sure about m4/3 compactness?

My camera of choice is Sony a6000. If I, say, had to switch to Panasonic, my pick (closest to a6000 in features that are important to me) would be GX8. Now lets compare there sizes:

http://camerasize.com/compare/#535,629

It is the bulk of a complete working camera with a lens that matters to most people – and in most cases, with a zoom lens.  And with lenses - far more than with bodies - the size and weight scale up when you use a larger sensor and want to get the full benefits of that larger sensor.  With bodies alone, it seems that even a 36x24mm sensor could be fit into almost any current ILC body since the size of the rear screen, controls, hand-grip and such force a minimum body size far larger than the sensor itself.  In fact, companies like Sony have at times gone to extremes with mirrorless body downsizing, at the expense of ergonomics.

I am not convinced that either of 4/3" and 'APS-C' will defeat the other, but I think that we have to look at the size vs performance trade-offs that people will be making with lenses to predict the future popularity of various formats. For the high-volume end of the ILC market, I see trends favoring ever smaller, lighter lenses for the sake of smaller lighter overall kit, and thus perhaps tipping towards the smaller ILC formats like 4/3" and even 1".
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Dan Wells

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Re: Sony Mirrorless Market Share Down
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2016, 11:31:09 am »

There are two often-quoted sets of numbers on the state of the camera market, and they measure different things. The CIPA numbers do NOT break out brands, but they measure worldwide sales of cameras by Japanese companies. They are fairly complete, because almost every dedicated camera is made by a Japanese company (cameras built into other things aren't necessarily, but CIPA doesn't count those). Samsung (Korean) and a number of small European companies, of which Leica is almost certainly the largest, are missing from the CIPA numbers, but none are major sellers, unless Samsung is gaining share in compact cameras, which could make the "compact collapse" look worse than it is?

The BCN rankings (which are often quoted for brand shares) are more restricted than that, and in two very important ways. First, they only measure cameras sold within Japan, and second, they only report number of units sold, not revenue or profit (CIPA doesn't report profit, but they do report revenue. BCN is essentially a ranking of how successfully manufacturers move the low end of their product line in Japan (the high end is included, but so many fewer D5s are sold than D3300s (for example) that the D5 essentially disappears. Every market is different, and the Japanese market has a couple of idiosyncrasies, which are partially shared with other Asian markets, but not with the West. Many Asian buyers of entry-level cameras prize compactness above all else, and they are willing to tolerate the loss of the viewfinder to get there. This isn't true of serious photographers, of course, but BCN measures units sold, so it is driven by consumer tastes, not serious photographer preferences.

The big "winner" in mirrorless from BCN's reporting is Canon. Every body they sell is low-end (once you get off the lowest rung, they want to move you to a DSLR), and none of them have viewfinders. The EOS-M line sells so poorly outside Asia that Canon USA has refused to import some models, but it sells relatively well in Japan - anecdotally, largely to young women whose previous camera was a phone. Nikon and Pentax also sell a fair number of mirrorless cameras into a similar demographic - hampered in the West by small sensors and lack of viewfinders, their lower-end models sell to casual photographers in Asia who prize compactness (and whose Western equivalents don't buy mirrorless cameras at all).

Olympus also benefits from how BCN reports - their higher-end OM-D line sells worldwide, but the PEN line of viewfinderless cameras (the new PEN-F is not really a PEN - it's an OM-D in a retro jacket) sells primarily in Asia. Walk into a US camera shop, and the least expensive Olympus mirrorless camera is probably an E-M10II, unless they have an older OM-D on clearance. That camera is more expensive than a number of DSLRs they are selling, and appeals to a discerning buyer. In Asia, they'd have a number of PEN models starting at $300 or so with a lens that play in the lower end of the market.

The big "loser" may well be Fuji. Their bodies are concentrated around a higher-end set of specifications with beautiful viewfinders and excellent controls, and they love to make gorgeous, expensive lenses. Photographers love them for it, but that isn't what drives BCN rankings. They have a profitable mirrorless business with somewhere between 7% and 10% worldwide market share, and more of the revenue than that, because their average mirrorless sale is higher than, say, Canon's.

Sony, interestingly, has been moving AWAY from what would win them BCN share - they've been focusing on higher-end cameras that will never sell many units. An A5100 with the execrable little 16-50 powerzoom and an A7rII with the new 24-70 f2.8 G-Master both count as "one camera" to BCN, and, by focusing on selling the latter, Sony will lose BCN share (although neither revenue nor profit).

If I had to guess at real importance in the mirrorless market (and there are no good numbers on this), Canon and to a lesser extent Olympus are over-reported by BCN, while Fuji and Sony suffer. Worldwide rankings would look something like.

1.)Sony
2.)Olympus
3.) All of Panasonic, Canon and Fuji are probably pretty close here, although Panasonic is focusing on video, Canon on the low end, and Fuji on the high end
The lower tier includes Nikon and Pentax, who didn't crack the top 3 in Japan, despite BCN-friendly lineups.

In terms of who's actually got a sustainable business, it's Sony and Fuji almost for sure, and probably Olympus (who seem to have finally turned a profit on mirrorless). Panasonic may, although I'm quite suspicious they lose money on the low end of their line and make it up on the video-focused top. They ALSO have a very well-known pro video division, so it wouldn't shock me if they eventually got out of the low end and gave the successful GH, GX and possibly G series to their own video folks.

I'm not sure about Canon - it may not cost that much to throw some Rebel bits in a compact case, turn the live view on permanently, and sell it cheap...
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Zorki5

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Re: compactness of complete working cameras, with lenses
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2016, 12:28:59 pm »

It is the bulk of a complete working camera with a lens that matters to most people – and in most cases, with a zoom lens. 

OK, fair enough.

Here they are with comparable lenses. 14-42 vs 18-55 (if anything, Sony even has slight edge, with some 3mm less on the short end, and better DOF control with same aperture values).

Panasonic measures 60.6 x 63.6, Sony 62 x 60 mm.
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Zorki5

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Re: Sony Mirrorless Market Share Down
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2016, 12:45:58 pm »

There are two often-quoted sets of numbers on the state of the camera market, and they measure different things. The CIPA numbers ...

When I saw the size of your post, I didn't think I'd read all of it... but I ended up doing just that, and have no regrets :)

Nice write-up, thank you.
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