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NickXavi

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Learning process
« on: January 24, 2016, 03:58:53 pm »

One month ago I purchased the i1Photo Pro 2, and next performing a learning process on the creation of RGB profiles for my Epson printer P800.

These are the results I have obtained in the various tests I've done.

In all cases the measurement I used is M1, the selected lighting was CIE D50 and profile settings have been perceptual: 0, 0, 50, tables: big, big, 16 bits and on advanced: uniformity (see results), Bradford, V4, predefined.

The evaluation procedure of profiles has been the creation of a measured reference of Colorchecker in i1Profiler, in the measurement file replaced the M0, M1, M2 measurements with the 30 average spectral measurements of BabelColor, next printing of Colorchecker from i1Profiler with the profile and paper to test, and on Data Analysis of i1Profiler compare the reference measurement with the printed measurements.

I would like to know your views and what I can do better.

Thanks!
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Doug Gray

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Re: Learning process
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2016, 06:36:04 pm »

Great start. You're a quick learner.

Those numbers are reasonable for I1 Pro 2 profiles on an Epson 800. I get only slightly lower values on the Canon 9500 II.


You would be hard pressed to see any differences except for one area. You are using M1 which corresponds to Daylight levels of uV, M0, a tungsten uV source, is a better choice. It doesn't matter very much for the papers without OBs but can shift things a bit otherwise.  The effects are very subtle since colors are shifted to the paper's white point. M0 is the traditional illuminant used but M2 is best if you will be putting the print behind uV cut glass. M1 is really best only if you are displaying the print outdoors.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 06:39:10 pm by Doug Gray »
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NickXavi

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Re: Learning process
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2016, 09:51:05 am »

Hi Doug,

I had nothing clear about the use of M0 or M1.

But it seems more consistent the use of M1 through the entire process of creating the profile and softproof, measuring at 5000ºK (M1), use of 5000ºK for illuminant (CIE D50), and setting the monitor color temperature to 5000ºK for printing.

Another thing is to use specifics lightings depending on where shows the print.

This was my thinking when choosing M1, but at anytime I can change if I understand and share the reasoning, because I own all the measurements (M0, M1, M2).

You can expand the comments about this question?

Regarding the list, I find a little unexpected the results of Hanemuhle Photo Rag 308. Your results for this paper are similar or different?

Last, all the paper on the list are Hahnemuhle, unless otherwise stated.

Thanks!
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Doug Gray

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Re: Learning process
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2016, 07:05:23 pm »

Hi Doug,

I had nothing clear about the use of M0 or M1.

But it seems more consistent the use of M1 through the entire process of creating the profile and softproof, measuring at 5000ºK (M1), use of 5000ºK for illuminant (CIE D50), and setting the monitor color temperature to 5000ºK for printing.

Another thing is to use specifics lightings depending on where shows the print.

This was my thinking when choosing M1, but at anytime I can change if I understand and share the reasoning, because I own all the measurements (M0, M1, M2).

You can expand the comments about this question?

Regarding the list, I find a little unexpected the results of Hanemuhle Photo Rag 308. Your results for this paper are similar or different?

Last, all the paper on the list are Hahnemuhle, unless otherwise stated.

Thanks!

Hi Nick,

Well, this is quite an interesting topic and one that, I'm afraid, is not well understood even by many folks that are quite expert at color and printer profiling.

Here's what the M0, M1, and M2 is in a nutshell. M0 represents measurements where the illuminant has a bit of uV and approximates the uV from a tungsten lamp which is less than the uV from daylight or D50. M1 represents typical daylight proportions of uV and M2 cuts off uV.

Let's look at the issue of D50.  D50 is more than a "White Point," or x,y coordinate in CIE 1931's two degree colorspace though it is also that. It's a slightly ragged spectral distribution that includes uV light that isn't, itself visible.  All ICC colorimetry uses D50 as a reference illuminant and combines this with the reflectance spectrum of the print medium in order to create profiles. This is true for M0, M1, and M2 measurements. They all use D50 but for media that has no fluorescent components the uV portion of D50 makes no difference at all and M0, M1 and M2 would produce identical results. What happens with uV (wavelengths below 400 nm) is that it isn't reflected but absorbed by the paper's surface and re-emitted in longer wavelengths. This process is called fluorescence. Most paper with OBs will have significant bluish tints as the invisible shorter wavelengths that comes back as visible "blueish" wavelengths around from 400 to 450 or so causing a blue shift and making the paper "brighter" as well.

Outside of B&W prints there is relatively little difference in how prints will look with one big, but rarely used, exception. It makes a great deal of difference in Absolute Colorimetric Intent. For Perceptual, Relative, and Saturation Intents profiles follow the White Point of the paper and Lab 100,0,0, or RGB values of 255,255,255  will lay down no ink. You just get whatever the paper "white" is and you see other colors in that context. Paper Whites with OBs typically will have a Lab "b" value of between -5 and -10.  If the print has OBs and is viewed outside, it will look more bluish than it will inside but so will the overall print. This is because the ink coverage is only partial, some uV leaks through, and some of the bluish fluoresced light comes back to the viewer. The lighter the color the more fluoresced light comes back.  It isn't perfectly in proportion but the effect is gradual and more likely to only show up only in B&W prints where small coloration change can be more easily seen.

Absolute Colorimetric Intent is a different kettle of fish. Selection of "M" mode makes a huge difference because this mode attempts to adjust the colors printed to match the Lab values without scaling it to the paper's White Point.  As a result if you print Lab=80,0,0, a very light gray, a bit of yellow will be added to the gray to bring the "b" from its negative value to 0. This might work in sunlight but inside the print will look rather yellowish. The only way to use Absolute Colorimetric Intent correctly is on paper w/o OBs or on paper that is displayed with a museum quality uV blocking glass. Still, Absolute Intent is not commonly used because it will block fine gradations from L=that of the paper white to L=100. It's really only for either accurate reproduction work where you are working with colors that are exactly that of the thing you are reproducing, or creating exact colors - usually an industrial process. So, for AI, you want to make profiles using M2 to eliminate the fluorescing component then use a uB blocking coating or glass.

But back to normal photos and display. The effects are more subtle than AI but still there. For instance if you have a profile made with M1 or, to a lessor extent M0, then print a light gray and it lays down a thick light, light gray pigment you can see a blue shift indoors. This is because the pigments used don't fluoresce but they do block the uV light from reaching the paper when making the profile. The profile tries to shift the colors in these gray areas toward the blue to match the bluish white point created by the uV in M1 or smaller M0.

So, in summary, if you make profiles with M1 then display indoors or under museum glass or use a uV blocking coating then you can see some color shifts. Especially in B&W prints. It's a smaller effect with M0 and if you show under tungsten with normal light indoors it will appear correctly w/o a color shift. So stay away from M1 unless you are showing outdoors.

OTOH, if you do want to use a uV blocking museum glass or coating then make profiles using M2 which blocks uV from and fluorescence when making profiles. The profiles will then match the actual paper white when viewing w/o any uV.

As for making profiles with other illuminants than D50 such as LED lights or some of the fluorescent lamps, the profiles will be adjusted so the colors will appear correctly under those illuminants. Whether M0, M1, or M2 should also be chosen depends on how much uV is coming out of the lamp. This is best tested experimentally.
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NickXavi

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Re: Learning process
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2016, 04:24:43 am »

Hi Doug,

Your response is very interesting.

I will study it and next weekend I will comment my ideas.

Thanks!
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NickXavi

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Re: Learning process
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2016, 03:04:21 pm »

I decided to use M1 after reading this document of X-Rite.:

https://www.xrite.com/documents/literature/en/L7-510_M_Factor_en.pdf

What do you think?

Thanks!

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Doug Gray

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Re: Learning process
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2016, 06:12:19 pm »

I decided to use M1 after reading this document of X-Rite.:

https://www.xrite.com/documents/literature/en/L7-510_M_Factor_en.pdf

What do you think?

Thanks!

There is little doubt M1 profiles will provide the best results when a print is viewed in natural daylight.

From: https://www.sappietc.com/sites/default/files/The%20Color%20Viewing%20Standard%20for%20the%20Graphic%20Arts.pdf
Quote
With ISO 3664:2009 viewing conditions, what you see can now be what you get! An image viewed under ISO 3664:2009 conditions will be a close match to how the same image will appear in natural daylight conditions.

It will also produce the best results if you use a compliant viewing booth. These are relatively new and expensive if they meet the D50 uV spectral requirements. These are in use mostly in the graphic arts biz. Most of the older ones do not and will probably look better with M0 profiles. Newer ones should use M1.

OTOH, if the print will be shown indoors under tungsten or fluorescent (yuck) lights I believe M0 is a better match.  The vast majority of printer profiles are made with M0 which, by consensus, has about the amount of uV a 2.85k tungsten lamp produces. M1 is better defined than M0 but the higher amount of uV that the full D500 spectra contains can produce a fairly large blue shift and profiles need to track that shift. Hence M1.

And, of course M2 is best if you are going to put a print behind museum glass with a uV cut filter.

If you are unsure how much uV is in any given environment you can make a profile with all three, M0, M1, and M2.  Print a Black to white smooth gradient then pick the one that exhibits the least amount of color shift in your environment.

If your paper doesn't have OBs it doesn't much matter. There is typically a small amount of substrate fluorescence but it rarely causes a visual shift unless you print using Absolute colorimetric. Even there the effects are relatively small.

For what it's worth, I have one of the older light booths, a GMB Judge II.  It has a variety of fluorescent lamps, a uV lamp for checking fluorescence (but is way to strong to emulate D50) and an incandescent. Under the approx. D50 fluorescents, which aren't bad but slightly bluish, I get about 1000 lux or 500 lux with one bulb removed. It shifts the paper white points at L100 to about -1,-3. It has a small amount of uV but so small the shift with OB laden paper is only about -2 for the 'b.'  This is the problem with the older, non-compliant, booths that don't have D50 levels of uV.  The best profiles on a white-black gradient are with either M0 or M2.  M0 has a bit too much uV and M2 a bit too little.  The bigger problem is that the light is still a bit spikey and there are slight color shifts. I get better results with a Solux though neither is really a D50 illuminant.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 08:14:21 pm by Doug Gray »
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NickXavi

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Re: Learning process
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2016, 02:09:11 pm »

I agree with your reasoning and matches the X-Rite's document.

In short:

* M0: Indoors, light wit low UV

* M1: Daylight

* M2: Behind the glass with UV cut, or light without UV

I have the spectral measurement of my showroom, large room of my house, illuminated with Leds (2.770ºK).

According to the spectral measurement attached, I think I have no UV in my Showroom.

So I can use M0 (better M2?), with the spectral measurement attached to create the profiles for my showroom images, and next print with the rendering intent I like.

We agree?

Thanks.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Learning process
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2016, 02:30:42 pm »

I agree with your reasoning and matches the X-Rite's document.

In short:

* M0: Indoors, light wit low UV

* M1: Daylight

* M2: Behind the glass with UV cut, or light without UV

I have the spectral measurement of my showroom, large room of my house, illuminated with Leds (2.770ºK).

According to the spectral measurement attached, I think I have no UV in my Showroom.

So I can use M0 (better M2?), with the spectral measurement attached to create the profiles for my showroom images, and next print with the rendering intent I like.

We agree?

Thanks.

Maybe.

The spectrum in your showroom is that of typical LED room lighting. The amount of uV from these is usually much smaller than tungsten or fluorescents. Compare that to the D50 spectrum. The LEDs only have a tiny amount below 390 and 390 is fairly small.

You best match will be either M0 or M2.  Could be either. I'd guess it's closer to M0 but it's just a guess. X-rite's M0 has about 70% of the uV of M1 which is pretty high. The problem with M0 is just the lack of standardization on uV amounts. Causes big problems on hard proof matching which is usually done on paper w/o OBs while the targets have become more likely to have OBs and the new spec on view booths has resulted in a lot more uV.

There is a more important consideration. LED spectrums produce some metameric error, just as fluorescents do. When you make profiles you should select that custom LED one as your illuminant. You probably are doing that already since you are displaying the spectrum so this is for others reading the thread.
 
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 02:49:51 pm by Doug Gray »
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digitaldog

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Re: Learning process
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2016, 02:53:58 pm »

The M specifications are outlined here on LuLa:
http://luminous-landscape.com/eye-one-pro-ii/
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Doug Gray

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Re: Learning process
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2016, 03:54:04 pm »

The M specifications are outlined here on LuLa:
http://luminous-landscape.com/eye-one-pro-ii/

BTW, you have a good article on the OBC module. I hadn't thought of that as it's not something I use since I hate OBs except for snapshots. It's part of the I1Profiler/I1 Pro 2 package and is useful to get the proper gray tones if the media has OBs but the illuminant doesn't match M0 or M1. They don't usually and the OP's LED (low uV) viewing will probably not match any of them  Selecting that in I1Profiler is an extra step but should work well.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Learning process
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2016, 04:47:15 pm »

The main value in using M1 or M2 profiles is when you are hard proofing. In fact the major impetus for using the new D50 with proper uV levels along with M1 profiles is to deal with hard (printed) proofs where the proof media doesn't have OBs and the other does. It's common to see a 10 point shift when uV isn't accounted for.

OTOH, the differences between M1 and M2 in photographic work is very small because the white point of a printed image in either Relative Colorimetric or Perceptual Intent is exactly the same - the un-inked paper. Not the case for hard proofs used in publishing.

If you want to see exactly how small the difference is do this:

1. Create two profiles at the same time, one M1 (D50 levels of uV) and one with M2 (uV cut) using a high OB paper.
2. In Photoshop, convert your favorite test image to the M1 profile using Relative Colorimetric.
3. Now select "Assign Profile," select the M2 profile and click the "view" checkbox on and off to show the effect of using one vs the other profile.

The differences are very subtle and may not even be visible. Generally there is a shift in the b* of about +1 to +2 in the midrange tones. The white point is unchanged.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 05:06:10 pm by Doug Gray »
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NickXavi

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Re: Learning process
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2016, 03:02:48 pm »

Hi Doug,

According to the spectral distribution of the light in my showroom (already posted), I think I can say that I have no UV or is negligible in my showroom.

If this is correct, with this illumination on paper with a high component of OBA which is the best option?

That is the question.

In the article that digitaldog mention in his post, finally Andrew Rodney says on  "i1Pro 2 and the M series options" that this question is to be tested, so that my confusion on the practical use of each M mode is remarkable.

Anyway and in my opinion, for my showroom (with negligible UV) maybe it's the right way M2 mode, where the paper illuminant is negligible UV and on papers with OBA, in practical terms It does not occur UV blue shift, which allows me to measure correctly.

I'm wrong?

Thanks!
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Doug Gray

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Re: Learning process
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2016, 05:31:10 pm »

Hi Doug,

According to the spectral distribution of the light in my showroom (already posted), I think I can say that I have no UV or is negligible in my showroom.

If this is correct, with this illumination on paper with a high component of OBA which is the best option?

That is the question.

In the article that digitaldog mention in his post, finally Andrew Rodney says on  "i1Pro 2 and the M series options" that this question is to be tested, so that my confusion on the practical use of each M mode is remarkable.

Anyway and in my opinion, for my showroom (with negligible UV) maybe it's the right way M2 mode, where the paper illuminant is negligible UV and on papers with OBA, in practical terms It does not occur UV blue shift, which allows me to measure correctly.

I'm wrong?

Thanks!
Yup, not wrong. Your take is correct.

No, or insignificant uV? Then M2 is always a good choice as it matters not whether the paper has OBs. No uV, no OB fluorescence. If the paper does have OBs it becomes more important to use M2.


« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 05:34:33 pm by Doug Gray »
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