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Author Topic: Impression Nr. 1, Arran  (Read 4089 times)

Vieri Bottazzini

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Impression Nr. 1, Arran
« on: January 21, 2016, 05:40:12 pm »

The Isle of Arran's (Scotland) magic landscape of sea and rocks and its amazing geological formations are always surprising. On the Isle's east side you can find fossil sands shaped by pressure, water, wind and time...



With the Sigma SD1 Merrill and the Sigma 17-50mm f/2.8. Thanks for viewing, best

Vieri
« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 11:51:24 am by madshutter »
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Stephen Girimont

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Re: Impression Nr. 1, Arran
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2016, 08:21:55 pm »

Lovely, but could you post it slightly smaller so we can see it without having to scroll? (And I'm using a 26" monitor)

thierrylegros396

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Re: Impression Nr. 1, Arran
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2016, 05:00:23 am »

Nice, but hese rocks seem to be sharp!

Have a Nice Day.

Thierry
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Impression Nr. 1, Arran
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2016, 05:03:35 am »

Excellent.

Bob_B

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Re: Impression Nr. 1, Arran
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2016, 09:30:12 am »

Beautiful, and what an 'alien' landscape. (I second the suggestion about reducing the size of the image, but its a minor issue.)
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francois

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Re: Impression Nr. 1, Arran
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2016, 11:19:12 am »

Very colorful. I like the combination of the red rock and green moss. The top of the frame might be a bit dark but it keeps the eyes on the foreground.

Well done.
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Francois

Vieri Bottazzini

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Re: Impression Nr. 1, Arran
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2016, 11:59:11 am »

Lovely, but could you post it slightly smaller so we can see it without having to scroll? (And I'm using a 26" monitor)

Thank you very much Stephen, glad you enjoyed it! :) Sorry about the size, I replaced the image with a smaller one, I hope it's now easier to watch...

Nice, but hese rocks seem to be sharp!

Have a Nice Day.

Thierry

Hello Thierry,

Thank you for your message, I am glad you enjoyed it. The rocks are actually a mix of sharp and smooth (real smooth in fact!), one certainly has to walk around carefully... ;)

Excellent.

Thank you very much Paulo, much appreciated! :D

Beautiful, and what an 'alien' landscape. (I second the suggestion about reducing the size of the image, but its a minor issue.)

Thank you very much Bob, an alien landscape indeed! :) Sorry about the image size, I replaced it with a smaller one - hope that helps...

Very colorful. I like the combination of the red rock and green moss. The top of the frame might be a bit dark but it keeps the eyes on the foreground.

Well done.

Thank you very much Francois! The top of the image is done on purpose, as you said to keep the eye from wandering up there too much :)

Thanks everyone for taking the time to view and comment, much appreciated indeed. Best,

Vieri
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Nelsonretreat

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Re: Impression Nr. 1, Arran
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2016, 02:51:26 pm »

It's almost as if I was standing there. So natural and realistic. Congratultions.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impression Nr. 1, Arran
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2016, 02:58:03 pm »

...So natural and realistic...

The opposite of.

The foreground is too bright for the background. A wonderful composition and theme, let down by poor* post processing choices.

* EDIT: less than optimal
« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 03:26:24 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Walt Roycraft

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Re: Impression Nr. 1, Arran
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2016, 03:09:45 pm »

The foreground is too bright for the background. A wonderful composition and theme, let down by poor post processing choices.

+1
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Vieri Bottazzini

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Re: Impression Nr. 1, Arran
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2016, 05:50:09 pm »

It's almost as if I was standing there. So natural and realistic. Congratultions.

The opposite of.

The foreground is too bright for the background. A wonderful composition and theme, let down by poor* post processing choices.

* EDIT: less than optimal

+1

Interesting comments, especially written one after the other :D First of all, thank you everyone for taking the time to view and comment, much appreciated.

To me, what counts in the end is if one likes the photograph or not: and I very well know that it's not possible (as it shouldn't be) that everyone likes it, especially if there are "different than expected" choices involved, i.e. regarding compositions, use of filters, post-processing, etc., and I am happy that this is the way it is. It would be terrible if everyone liked the exact same things as everyone else in the exact same way. In the end, you can debate personal taste endlessly (and to no avail), so it sort of become all moot points...

What is important to me is that someone's "choices" (my choices in this case) are really made out of... choice, if you forgive me the pun, rather than having people passing for "choices" what really is ignorance, technical weaknesses, and such. In the case of this photo I used a 0.9 Hard Grad ND combined with a 0.6 Soft Grad ND at the time of the shoot, not in post; so, besides the impossibility to define "optimal" processing (unless you mean that "optimal" is what you like, and "less than optimal" is what you don't like - or what is different than what you expected for a particular scene), in this case the culprit is "less than optimal" use of filters, not of post processing... :D In post, I added some vignetting to that already present (courtesy of the lens used), but that didn't make "the foreground brighter than the background": you can easily see vignetting effecting both ends of the image.

Let's take a step back now: since my aim was that of having a dark background, in order to draw the viewers eye to the foreground, the important question to me is: did I succeed? If so, my use of filter was optimal for my purpose; if not, it was less than optimal. That said, this doesn't mean that you have to like it, I am really fine with people don't liking my aesthetic choices on a particular image: that's the beauty of this wonderful thing called photography :D

So, someone feels like they were there, and that the photo was very natural and realistic - someone else instead feels that the photo is very unnatural. I myself am very happy with the image, and am actually very happy with both these reactions :D On my end, I think that if a photograph transmits the viewer some emotions, then the viewer feels that the photo is realistic, natural, he feels like he was there, in a word he likes it. This, despite the fact that every photograph is, in fact, an abstraction of reality, and by definition cannot be "realistic", if nothing else because you are representing a 3D world in 2D to begin with, let alone using a wide-angle or a tele-lens with their effect on image planes and relative size of objects, and so on... but evidently this means that the un-realistic use of lenses is now considered OK and is more widely accepted than the un-realistic use of light, even if I still remember when "close-far wide-angle compositions" were frown upon and considered bad, a fad, un-realistic, no good and so on, and it wasn't so many years ago.

Anyway, when all is said and done, nothing that one can say will change the fact that someone likes the photograph and someone does not. And I am absolutely fine with it  :D
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luxborealis

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Re: Impression Nr. 1, Arran
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2016, 06:39:21 pm »

The opposite of.

The foreground is too bright for the background. A wonderful composition and theme, let down by poor* post processing choices.

* EDIT: less than optimal

It is possible to "like" a photograph and "feel like I can walk into it", yet still have constructive criticism for it as Slobodan has provided and I agree with.

However the top gradation was achieved (through filters as you did or through post-processing as Slobodan may have been referring to)... Either way, in what appears to be a natural-looking rendition, the gradation seems unnaturally dark. My first impression was, "Oh, another example of grad filters over-used" and it wasn't until your reply that my suspicion was confirmed.

What this now creates for the objective viewer (as in not having been there at the same time experiencing the same atmosphere), is a question as to whether the photographer's intentions match the outcome. We can only guess at the intentions, but if the photograph appears to be an attempt at recreating reality as the rocks and composition do, but fails to be convincing, as the unnaturally dark sky is represented, well now we're faced with a conundrum. We can see why the sky works if slightly darkened - to bring the eye back down again and create the effect of a brooding coastline - but why the additional darkening when it doesn't seem to improve on the apparent concept?

It is an excellent photograph, great composition and presence, but doesn't mean it can't be further "improved" to allow the presentation to better match the apparent concept.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impression Nr. 1, Arran
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2016, 06:43:50 pm »

...unless you mean that "optimal" is what you like, and "less than optimal" is what you don't like ...

It is not about what I like or not, it is about well-documented characteristics of human perception. Whether it was done by too-strong ND filters or in post-processing is utterly irrelevant. You can not possibly have such a dark horizon, indicating twilight, and such a bright and contrasty foreground (where does the light come from for that?).

I appreciate slight brightening of the foreground as a conscious decision to concentrate attention there, nothing wrong with that. After all, our eyes would compensate for the loss of light at the horizon when we look down, in front of our feet. However, it is a matter of balance and degree. Either you correct the  too-strong ND effect, or you darken a bit the foreground. Also, while our eyes/brain might adjust the brightness of the scene when looking down, the contrast can not possibly be there in such a darkness (as suggested by the twilight on the horizon).

The bottom line: it is all about degree and balance. I am not advocating for a dark background foreground,* but a bit darker and less contrasty, and a bit more balance between foreground and background.

You are free, of course, to treat the above comments as a friendly, collegial advice, as it was intended, or as coming from just another jerk who doesn't like something.

* Edited for the wrong word
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 08:05:00 am by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Vieri Bottazzini

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Re: Impression Nr. 1, Arran
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2016, 03:50:19 am »

It is not about what I like or not, it is about well-documented characteristics of human perception. Whether it was done by too-strong ND filters or in post-processing is utterly irrelevant. You can not possibly have such a dark horizon, indicating twilight, and such a bright and contrasty foreground (where does the light come from for that?).

I appreciate slight brightening of the foreground as a conscious decision to concentrate attention there, nothing wrong with that. After all, our eyes would compensate for the loss of light at the horizon when we look down, in front of our feet. However, it is a matter of balance and degree. Either you correct the  too-strong ND effect, or you darken a bit the foreground. Also, while our eyes/brain might adjust the brightness of the scene when looking down, the contrast can not possibly be there in such a darkness (as suggested by the twilight on the horizon).

The bottom line: it is all about degree and balance. I am not advocating dark background, but a bit darker and less contrasty, and a bit more balance between foreground and background.

You are free, of course, to treat the above comments as a friendly, collegial advice, as it was intended, or as coming from just another jerk who doesn't like something.

Let me start from last, saying that had I thought your comment as a "jerk that doesn't like something" I wouldn't have bothered answering in the first place, I'd just have let it pass. On the contrary, to me this is a very interesting topic, probably one of the most interesting thing we have to deal with doing what we do: and this is because on the one hand, contrarily to what you say, it is a completely not objective one and there is no set truth, no set right or wrong here; on the other hand, it is the very reason to do what we do.

Coming to your answer, I am afraid the point is exactly whether you like the image or not. All the rest are rationalisations. Let me see if I can get my point across. You are bothered by my use of light, and cite "the well-documented characteristics of human perception" as an objective proof of your point. However, you fail to consider "the well-documented characteristics of human perception" when you look at an image, such as this one, shot with a wide angle: you fail to consider that no human eye would ever see and percept this scene optically even remotely close as you see it in my image. So, since you use your argument of "well-documented characteristics of human perception" selectively, and apply it just to what you don't like rather than universally, then the only possible conclusion is that you do like to stretch "the well-documented characteristics of human perception" when it comes to the choice of lens, but not when it comes to the choice of the use of light. Mind you, this is perfectly acceptable and I am totally fine by it - but is far from being an universal truth, it is just your vision against mine.

More, when you say "Either you correct the  too-strong ND effect, or you darken a bit the foreground" you in fact forget a third, better option: or I just leave it as it is, and accept that you don't like it. The choice you submit to me, in other words, is either to give up my vision to comply with your selectively used "well-documented characteristics of human perception", or... to give up to my vision to comply with your "well-documented characteristics of human perception". I choose the third option: keep faithful to my vision, and accept that you (and probably others) will not like it, while many others do.

One last thing, to help show you how "well-documented characteristics of human perception" are pliable to your liking: you just commented on my "Machrie Moor, I" image saying that you cannot possibly nitpick on that one. Well, that image has been made possible by the use of some very strong Grand ND filtering, and NEVER in real life you could be looking straight at the setting sun like you do in that image, without seeing everything else blackened out (and possibly without damaging your eyesight). So, the "well-documented characteristics of human perception" has nothing to do with it. It has all to do with your liking one image and not liking the other, while both are very well out of what "well-documented characteristics of human perception" could do. Again, this is perfectly fine, but let's just call things as they are.

All that said, I think we have to agree that there are different degrees of interpretation present in every and any photography: to begin with, you are squeezing a 3D reality on a 2D medium, which is a huge level of abstraction; but leaving that aside, for instance, if you choose to use a normal focal length you limit the perspective modifications of your photograph, whereas, using a WA you'll interpret reality showing closer objects way bigger than they are, or using a tele-lens you'll decide to compress image planes, not to mention fish-eye or special effect lenses. As well, when you use a ND filter to slow your shutter, you'll see water and clouds in a way that never the human eye could, thus interpreting reality and placing yourself very well out of "well-documented characteristics of human perception". Or, when you use a Grad ND, you'll play with the dynamic range of an image, pretty much in the same way. The point here is deciding how much of these abstractions, modifications and departure from the "well-documented characteristics of human perception" you are ready to accept. And this is, by definition, a personal choice.

Thank you for springing this debate! Again, a most interesting one for me :D
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Vieri Bottazzini

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Re: Impression Nr. 1, Arran
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2016, 03:58:54 am »

It is possible to "like" a photograph and "feel like I can walk into it", yet still have constructive criticism for it as Slobodan has provided and I agree with.

However the top gradation was achieved (through filters as you did or through post-processing as Slobodan may have been referring to)... Either way, in what appears to be a natural-looking rendition, the gradation seems unnaturally dark. My first impression was, "Oh, another example of grad filters over-used" and it wasn't until your reply that my suspicion was confirmed.

What this now creates for the objective viewer (as in not having been there at the same time experiencing the same atmosphere), is a question as to whether the photographer's intentions match the outcome. We can only guess at the intentions, but if the photograph appears to be an attempt at recreating reality as the rocks and composition do, but fails to be convincing, as the unnaturally dark sky is represented, well now we're faced with a conundrum. We can see why the sky works if slightly darkened - to bring the eye back down again and create the effect of a brooding coastline - but why the additional darkening when it doesn't seem to improve on the apparent concept?

It is an excellent photograph, great composition and presence, but doesn't mean it can't be further "improved" to allow the presentation to better match the apparent concept.

Thank you for chiming in this most interesting debate. I am totally for constructive criticism, and I completely appreciate and accept that some people might like my photograph and others may not. No problem at all with that. I just do not agree with there being any "universality" in what Slobodan said: it is just Slobodan (and your) liking or not an image, it has nothing to do with "well-documented characteristics of human perception" which, as I abundantly argued in my last answer to Slobodan, has nothing to do with liking a photograph or not.

I accept your point much better: in your opinion, a little less darkening would have worked better to express my intentions - fine. However, these were my intentions, not anyone else's: I appreciate it that I probably felt overly dramatic when I was there, and that this might have had a lot to do with my rendition of the scene; as well, you are of course free to feel that I went over the top with the drama, perhaps if you saw the image after experiencing similar weather conditions you'd feel differently about it. What I think is, whenever we depart from "accepted" conventions in image-making (whatever these are on any given day, since they constantly change with time), we are bound to please someone and displease someone else: I am perfectly fine with this, but I am not about giving up to my vision on this (and other) images just to please one more person (and, probably, displease one as well at the same time...).

Best,

Vieri
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impression Nr. 1, Arran
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2016, 09:40:18 pm »

Your world, Vieri, appears to be quite simple:

- authors have visions
- public likes it or not

In your world there is no room for "people passing for 'choices' what really is ignorance, technical weaknesses, and such." There is no room for art history, for art theory, for theory of human perception. There is no analysis what makes people like something or not, there is no synthesis of those findings either. Just visions, likes and dislikes. If only art (and life) would be that simple.

Vieri Bottazzini

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Re: Impression Nr. 1, Arran
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2016, 03:39:09 am »

Your world, Vieri, appears to be quite simple:

- authors have visions
- public likes it or not

In your world there is no room for "people passing for 'choices' what really is ignorance, technical weaknesses, and such." There is no room for art history, for art theory, for theory of human perception. There is no analysis what makes people like something or not, there is no synthesis of those findings either. Just visions, likes and dislikes. If only art (and life) would be that simple.

Thank you very much Slobodan for proving my point by not addressing any of the points in my previous message. Not that you could, I am sure it must have been too difficult to get out of the contradictions you put yourself in.

About your last change of topic, once more thank you for proving my point: art history, funny enough, progressed exactly the way you accused my world to be, so thank you for that too, I really hope you are right in my particular case. In the history of art, figurative, musical, photography, you name it, there has been people working in the style of their time, "manieristi" of sorts, and innovators who changed the course of their art or craft. These people had visions, different from those of the majority of the people around them, and the people around them either liked their work or not (most often not, at least in the beginning). Those who did not like their work, tried to justify their dislike (or shortsightedness, if you look at it with the benefit of hindsight) with the exact arguments that you use here, arguments that you use selectively of course and only when it suits you: human perception, history of art, etc. Then, if the people liking it were more than those not liking it, the artist became successful and his or her innovations entered mainstream, he or she became rich and famous (some in life, some after death, sadly), and some other people with a different vision started considering them "old farts" and started experimenting with new stuff; people liked or disliked the new stuff; and so it went on, cycle after cycle. In the history of photography, though a much shorter one, you see the same things happening many times: novelties appearing, some becoming fads and disappearing, some of them staying and becoming mainstream, etc. Art theory, on the other hand, is something written mostly after the fact (or sometimes during the fact, for modern art) to explain things that someone with vision did to people who didn't understand or didn't like the new vision, and, thus, put them into the mainstream. Art theory, more often than not, is used by some not as the necessary bases to move on but as one of the forces of reaction, of conservation of the status quo. A few examples: think Picasso and cubism. Think impressionism. And so on...

Thank you for the stimulating conversation. Have a good day,

Vieri
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 03:43:37 am by madshutter »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impression Nr. 1, Arran
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2016, 09:04:25 am »

Except you (and I) are "manieristi" of sorts, not Picasso or impressionists.

Vieri Bottazzini

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Re: Impression Nr. 1, Arran
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2016, 09:13:20 am »

Except you (and I) are "manieristi" of sorts, not Picasso or impressionists.

Whatever makes you happy, Slobodan :)
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Impression Nr. 1, Arran
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2016, 09:30:49 am »

One thing that certainly qualifies you as a great artist, Vieri, is the sensitivity to criticism  :)
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