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Author Topic: deconvolution sharpening plug in  (Read 54833 times)

smahn

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Re: deconvolution sharpening plug in
« Reply #60 on: February 09, 2016, 12:42:48 pm »

I prefer the Iridient version. The fine branches are better resolved with less haloing.
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TonyW

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Re: deconvolution sharpening plug in
« Reply #61 on: February 09, 2016, 01:09:43 pm »

...It looks to me like Piccure+ has a little edge due to a stronger contrast boost.
Yes looks the same to me and perhaps due to the added contrast it seems CA also increased a tad.  On this image alone does not appear to be a big difference and maybe not evident when printed?
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earlybird

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Re: deconvolution sharpening plug in
« Reply #62 on: February 10, 2016, 04:16:22 pm »

I've been working with a piccure+ demo for the past couple days on photographs of birds. The shots that feature a medium light value bird body against a medium light value background are coming out superb. I am very enthusiastic about it. The light colored or white birds that are posed in front of a dark background are a different story. The white birds end up with a very obvious dark, or navy blue outline but there was little to no edgy halo in the original file that would seem to be the source. It as if the clean edges simply excite the math and the plugin synthesizes an edge line. The rest of the texture looks nice but the "find edges" effect is not acceptable so I am erasing the edges and letting the original layer show through. 

I have been running "Quality+", Abberation= "Standard", and Sharpen="10".
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JakeD

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Re: deconvolution sharpening plug in
« Reply #63 on: February 10, 2016, 05:28:41 pm »

I really like Picture +. Surprised it hasn't been mentioned here more. A lot of my work involves photo restoration, old prints and negatives. So many of those old prints need sharpening work on them, in addition to the camera shake correction that this app. provides. There are very few scanned images that I don't run through this app. It's quite invaluable. Works as a Photoshop filter too.
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earlybird

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Re: deconvolution sharpening plug in
« Reply #64 on: February 11, 2016, 06:18:33 am »

An idea I am curious about with piccure+ is the instruction, which is repeated a few times on the website, to not crop your image before processing. With the birds photos I am currently working on I do not have a big enough lens to crop while shooting so I am forced to crop in post. Cropping before running piccure+ saves a tremendous amount of time, so I wonder if the caution not to crop before hand is based on a solid mathematical principal or if it is just a casual "rule".

It occurs to me that the mathematics may have a sort of symmetry based on the idea that a lens presents aberration across a full frame in a sort of radial symmetry, and that cropping may undermine the effectiveness of the processing.

I am going to try some full frame and crop comparisons to see if there is a discernible difference in the final cropped image.
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earlybird

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Re: deconvolution sharpening plug in
« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2016, 07:03:44 am »

I keep vacillating in my opinion. Yesterday morning I worked on a photo of a wading Reddish Egret and tried 6 different combinations of settings and they all produced dark edging and bright red fringing. The good parts were nice so I erased out the offending stuff by hand and let the original layer show through. The photo presented a challenge in that the lighting was overcast, the wind was blowing over 20 knots, and so I had to use ISO 400 just to keep a fast enough shutter speed so there was some noise when zoomed in for the final crop. The setting was also full of detailed saw grass, coarse grained mud, and rippling water. This photo left me wondering how long I would be using piccure+ before giving up.

Yesterday afternoon I returned from another outing and tried it on some bird in flight shots of juvenile bald eagles set against a cloudless sky. I was shooting at ISO 200, again with a fast shutter speed, but tracking two birds that were flying fairly quickly. By the time I zoomed in to the useful crop the birds got a bit soft. Piccure+ did a fantastic job of bringing this image to life. This photo left me very appreciative of the piccure+ plugin.

I am starting to think that the adjustments in piccure+ do not produce the results in a way I anticipate from the descriptions. Some times the higher Quality or Stronger corrections create a coarser and more vulgar appearance. I have noticed that in some cases the Sharpness settings seem to effect change when testing between 5 to 15 but then I see little change if I make a test run at 30. Finally, I have varied the denoise value on several occasions and can see no change in the amount of noise that reduced. On some of the occasions I have begun to suspect that the plugin just stopped working but it doesn't crash or stall. It appears to run normally and if I shut down Photoshop and replicate the settings on another pass I continue to not see any difference even when zoomed it at 200%.

Having said all that I suspect I will buy it because when it helps it looks great, but I would like to learn to better understand how to predict when and where to give up and try some other solution when it doesn't help.
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earlybird

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Re: deconvolution sharpening plug in
« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2016, 08:59:36 am »

Does anyone know what sort of mathematical approach Nik Presharpener uses?
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Robert Ardill

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Re: deconvolution sharpening plug in
« Reply #67 on: February 17, 2016, 09:37:43 am »

I have to confess that I've only glanced through this topic, but here is a way of testing different sharpening algorithms that may be of use.  I stumbled on it by chance while using Imatest to check out some of my lenses.

I've tried a number of different sharpening methods and here are some of the results.  The target is an Imatest slanted edge and the table shows the Imatest results for the same image with different sharpening: first line is with no sharpening; second line is with ACR default of 25; 3rd line ACR25 + Focus Magic with radius of 1; 4th line Focus Magic radius 1 applied twice; last line Focus Magic with radius of 2.

The best results are for ACR25 + FM1, IMO.  It gives a good 10-90% reading, little overshoot, good MTF50 and good MTF at Nyquist. FM1+1 is a close second.

I've included three of the plots (ACR25+FM1, FM1+1 and FM2) as they give some more info.

I've also included a plot of ACR25+FM3 to show a very oversharpened result.

My trial of DeNoise is over but I'll get a copy to see if it does things any better.

Do you think this is a useful approach to evaluating different types of sharpening?

Robert

BTW ... the softness with no sharpening is due to a significant extent to the target being rather poor as it is printed using an inkjet on satin paper.

ImagePHR10-90Over-Over-MTF50MTF50PMTFMTF
/PHshoot %sharpng %LW/PHLW/PHNyq c/pNyq lw/ph
A000541---No-Sharpening.tif400014490.2-36.4172017200.046368
A000541---ACR25.tif400017370.2-26234623460.1491192
A000541---ACR25-FM1.tif400034733.6-9.1344534450.3512808
A000541---FM1.tif400022000.2-21.8260326030.108864
A000541---FM1+1.tif400036105.1-3.1340233640.2742192
A000541---FM2.tif400033425-2.4320231940.2021616

   





   
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: deconvolution sharpening plug in
« Reply #68 on: February 17, 2016, 01:54:36 pm »

Do you think this is a useful approach to evaluating different types of sharpening?

Robert

BTW ... the softness with no sharpening is due to a significant extent to the target being rather poor as it is printed using an inkjet on satin paper.

For me this has never been useful information for getting sharp results because I just fix it in post. I look at digital images as just varying densities of microscopically small pixels I can apply contrast globally and locally to get the level of sharpness I want.

I get sharp results either straight out of the camera shooting Raw or with the soft & fuzzy shots fixed in post, both using cheap lenses.

The day someone can take a Raw shot straight out of the camera and not do any editing to it is when I think a test you've outlined would justify all that time and effort.

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Robert Ardill

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Re: deconvolution sharpening plug in
« Reply #69 on: February 17, 2016, 02:20:07 pm »

For me this has never been useful information for getting sharp results because I just fix it in post. I look at digital images as just varying densities of microscopically small pixels I can apply contrast globally and locally to get the level of sharpness I want.

Yes, well of course this test is of no use whatsoever for processing an image ... it's only potentially useful in comparing different sharpening methods. 

So, for example, we've had discussions in the past as to whether or not it's a good idea to apply a small amount of capture sharpening in Lightroom/ACR followed by further sharpening in Photoshop, or whether it would be better to apply sharpening once in Photoshop. My own view was the latter, but I have to say that looking at the results I've posted here I would have to say that I was probably wrong.

The advantage of using a tool like Imatest is that it is more scientific and reproducible than a purely visual assessment.  It's easy to see things like haloing, oversharpening etc., and at the same time to see the effect of the sharpening on resolution.

Quote
The day someone can take a Raw shot straight out of the camera and not do any editing to it is when I think a test you've outlined would justify all that time and effort.

Well when that day comes my test will be entirely redundant ... which would be great!  Then we wouldn't need to worry about deconvolution and what-not as our images would be perfect as taken :)

Robert
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Jack Hogan

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Re: deconvolution sharpening plug in
« Reply #70 on: February 18, 2016, 11:29:57 am »

Do you think this is a useful approach to evaluating different types of sharpening?

Yes, quite.  It is obvious for instance that your last try goes way overboard, bumping up noisy/non-existent aliased frequencies an increasing real frequencies above what they were in nature, so it will probably generate more artifacts.  Here are a couple of articles on using the same method to evaluate some of the effects of demosaicing, sharpening and resizing.

Jack
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Robert Ardill

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Re: deconvolution sharpening plug in
« Reply #71 on: February 18, 2016, 02:33:50 pm »

Yes, quite.  It is obvious for instance that your last try goes way overboard, bumping up noisy/non-existent aliased frequencies an increasing real frequencies above what they were in nature, so it will probably generate more artifacts. 
Thanks for the links Jack.  I read your articles with interest.  I've run DCRAW (dcraw -w  -o 2 -6 -T -g 2.2 0)  versus ACR (no sharpening) and the results are indeed different as shown below (the tiff file is DCRAW and the tif file is ACR).

I agree that it would be really great if testing sites standardized on one raw converter and used the one that produces straight out demosaicing with no additional processing. 

I'm also rather puzzled by readings from sites like Photozone.de where they show very high MTF50 readings although they claim to only use ACR with standard settings (in other words 25 sharpening), no contrast adjustment etc.  I'm sure that their targets are much better than mine as is their lighting and focusing, but I'm still pretty suspicious of a  MTF50 of 3100 lw/ph on a Sony A6000 with a 16-50mm kit lens (my test gives a value of 2000 for the same focal length and f#).

But I guess this is way off topic!  So, returning to topic, I think you do agree that using a tool to view the edge profile and MTF of a slanted edge is useful in evaluating different sharpening algorithms.  It's certainly very clear to me that the last example that I gave above, with a Focus Magic sharpening radius 3 is grossly over-sharpened. In fact, even with a radius of 2 in Focus Magic, the image is over-sharpened.

That could be seen by visual examination.  However, what is not at all as clear is that a much gentler 2-pass sharpening yields a significantly better MTF50 and MTF-Nyquist AND with little or no haloing.  That, I think, is pretty significant.

What the test doesn't really show though is contrast (I don't think?) and micro-detail.

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Jack Hogan

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Re: deconvolution sharpening plug in
« Reply #72 on: February 18, 2016, 03:20:32 pm »

What the test doesn't really show though is contrast (I don't think?) and micro-detail.

I don't know what micro-detail is Robert, but 'global' contrast is represented by lower frequencies, the left 1/8th of the MTF curve.  In fact it turns out that in typical viewing conditions what matters most as far as the perception of 'sharpness' is concerned is the performance of the lens around MTF90.  Keep that in mind the next time you buy a lens ;)

Cheers,
Jack
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Robert Ardill

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Re: deconvolution sharpening plug in
« Reply #73 on: February 18, 2016, 04:02:49 pm »

I don't know what micro-detail is Robert, but 'global' contrast is represented by lower frequencies, the left 1/8th of the MTF curve.  In fact it turns out that in typical viewing conditions what matters most as far as the perception of 'sharpness' is concerned is the performance of the lens around MTF90.  Keep that in mind the next time you buy a lens ;)

Cheers,
Jack
Yes, but as per your article, only at standard viewing distance :).  For us pixel-peepers MTF50 is a better guide. 

But yes, I can see that MTF90/MTF80 does give an indication of contrast.  I guess what we should be looking at there is a good flat curve near 100% up to 0.2 or 0.3 cycles/pixel.  Of course you won't get that with an unsharpened image, so it would seem to me that some form of standard sharpening should really be agreed on for testing.

As for micro-contrast ... well I don't know what that is either :).  When I apply it using Topaz I just seem to boost noise, so maybe that is what it is.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: deconvolution sharpening plug in
« Reply #74 on: February 18, 2016, 05:33:46 pm »

Jack, you couldn't post one actual photographed image sample in any of your linked articles to show how all that analysis makes a better sharpened image?

Come on!

Connect the science and graphs with reality will ya' so photographers can see with their own eyes that understanding the science really helps.
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Jack Hogan

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Re: deconvolution sharpening plug in
« Reply #75 on: February 19, 2016, 05:08:17 am »

Jack, you couldn't post one actual photographed image sample in any of your linked articles to show how all that analysis makes a better sharpened image?

Come on!

Connect the science and graphs with reality will ya' so photographers can see with their own eyes that understanding the science really helps.

Photographs, photographs, who said anything about photographs? ;)  Point well taken.
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Robert Ardill

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Re: deconvolution sharpening plug in
« Reply #76 on: February 19, 2016, 08:47:47 am »

Jack, you couldn't post one actual photographed image sample in any of your linked articles to show how all that analysis makes a better sharpened image?

Come on!

Connect the science and graphs with reality will ya' so photographers can see with their own eyes that understanding the science really helps.

Well I'm sure Jack is well able to connect the graphs with reality (after all, what is reality :)?), but here is an example from me:



On the top is a 100% crop and on the bottom a 200% crop.

Looking at the 100% crop it would be fair to think that the image appears sharper and more detailed going from left to right, with the sharpest being the FM3 (Focus Magic with radius 3).

However, both the sharpening tests that I showed above using a slanted edge analysis and the 200% crop on the bottom row show that the FM3 result is oversharpened - AND - has less detail than the ACR25+FM1. The FM3 image has artifacts and a loss of fine detail, whereas the ACR25+FM1 has almost no artifacts and has quite fine detail.

So does that not show that there can be a benefit from a scientific analysis that is reproducible with small parameter changes so that you can fine-tune your sharpening for different lenses, different apertures, different ISO etc?  Or in assisting you to pick the best sharpening plug-ins?

Of course that doesn't mean that for a particular shot a more (or less) aggressive sharpening might not give a more pleasing result ... but at least it means that it is in practice possible to say that given this camera, this lens and these sharpening options that the likely best, sharpest, least damaged image will be achieved with this particular sharpening method.

Robert
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: deconvolution sharpening plug in
« Reply #77 on: February 19, 2016, 05:08:01 pm »

So does that not show that there can be a benefit from a scientific analysis that is reproducible with small parameter changes so that you can fine-tune your sharpening for different lenses, different apertures, different ISO etc?  Or in assisting you to pick the best sharpening plug-ins?
Robert

Not that I don't appreciate the effort you took, Robert, posting the sharpening sample, but since you didn't connect the graph analysis in Jack's blog articles to the look of the sharpening results I fail to see how the science helps.

In fact you did me a big favor by confirming all the variables involved in assessing sharpness in micro detail with your 100% vs 200% crops which points to display antialiasing algorithms getting in the way. Something I've become quite aware when I have to downsize to the web. IOW there's a lot going on the under the hood in the display of perceived sharpness that the only thing to rely on is visual judgement.

For me it's always been the slider behavior and positioning relationship between Amount, Radius & Detail in ACR that affects image sharpness differently depending on distance the detail was from the lens combined with resolution/sensor size at the time of capture.

For instance a small Amount above ACR's +25 like say +40/Radius-1/Detail-25 sharpening detail lit at 45 degree angle just feet from the lens is all that's needed as opposed to detail farther away lit at 75 degree angle needs a larger Radius and Amount-50/Detail-50. Sometimes I can crank Radius to 2.5 and increase Detail to remove "mosquito" edge artifacts, but it's different image to image. How do you connect science analysis to so many unknowns and inconsistencies as to what's really going on with software?

I notice ACR slider position relationship changes as it acts on various clump size of detail which has not been characterized/profiled in these discussions.
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earlybird

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Re: deconvolution sharpening plug in
« Reply #78 on: February 20, 2016, 06:38:35 am »

I just used piccure+ on a landscape I shot a few days ago. The results were excellent. I had made the shot near sunset and it was handheld with a 400mm at f6.3 so I used ISO 3200. When I made the photo I didn't expect to ever use it as the ISO seemed so high. At the time I thought it would simply be a sort of note-to-self to go back with a tripod and make a real photo, but the lighting was so nice that I gave post processing a try.

I tried piccure+ in Photohsop as a first step after RAW conversion and also as a 2nd step after a RAW conversion>Nik Dfine 2 noise reduction. The results from both were good. The one step process showed incredible detail and I was surprised that piccure+ brought back most of the "detail" that was mollified by Dfine 2 in the 2 step process so I chose that example for further editing.

I have also downloaded and installed a Focus Magic demo for the second time in 12 months and I was reminded that the results I get with it seem, to put it politely, *less than good*.  I am surprised that so many here seem to find it useful, so I guess I will keep trying it on occasions to see where it works well.

I have a restored interest in Nik Presharpener, which I got with a Nik bundle many years ago, and I am also surprised to see that it has been cursorily dismissed by some. I would rate it as adequate, if not remarkable. It seems to work well when piccure+ is challenged. I would like to understand why that is but I can't find much info on what goes on inside Nik Presharpener.

I am becoming interested in Topaz InFocus and anticipate downloading a demo.

I will probably buy a 2 install license for piccure+ but the $119 price seem a bit steep. I am going to try InFocus before I do anything.

Honestly, I never worried much about presharpening and will admit that I had habitually left ACR defaults to do what it does.

It has seemed fun for an old dog to learn a new trick, and I feel that the results I am getting have been worthwhile.

I am glad I was inspired by this thread to try these plugins.

Thank you.
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Robert Ardill

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Re: deconvolution sharpening plug in
« Reply #79 on: February 21, 2016, 06:26:57 am »

Not that I don't appreciate the effort you took, Robert, posting the sharpening sample, but since you didn't connect the graph analysis in Jack's blog articles to the look of the sharpening results I fail to see how the science helps.

Well, I  didn't connect them directly, but Jack's graph analysis for sharpening is exactly the same as mine, showing the effect of sharpening (in particular incorrect sharpening) on the edge profile and MTF.  So the graph analysis shows that a particular sharpening is sub-optimal (the FM3 one in particular) both from a haloing and resolution point of view, and the photo of the rock shows the same thing, which shows that theory and practice are in line with each other.  What the theory shows more clearly than the photo though is that resolution, especially at high frequencies, is reduced by too much sharpening.  That makes sense if you think about it ... the sharpening is causing halos which blur the fine detail.

Quote
For me it's always been the slider behavior and positioning relationship between Amount, Radius & Detail in ACR that affects image sharpness differently depending on distance the detail was from the lens combined with resolution/sensor size at the time of capture.

For instance a small Amount above ACR's +25 like say +40/Radius-1/Detail-25 sharpening detail lit at 45 degree angle just feet from the lens is all that's needed as opposed to detail farther away lit at 75 degree angle needs a larger Radius and Amount-50/Detail-50. Sometimes I can crank Radius to 2.5 and increase Detail to remove "mosquito" edge artifacts, but it's different image to image. How do you connect science analysis to so many unknowns and inconsistencies as to what's really going on with software?

I notice ACR slider position relationship changes as it acts on various clump size of detail which has not been characterized/profiled in these discussions.

I agree that at the end of the day all post-processing is a subjective thing, and having rules to say that you should do ACR sharpening at x followed by some other sharpening at y is much too simplistic as it doesn't take into account how big the print is, how far away it is being viewed at, whether or not you actually WANT halos around the edges, how good your lens and focusing are and so on. 

But I think the 'science' can help remove fuzzy thinking.  For example, I took the same shot that I've posted above and applied a 2px gaussian blur to simulate out-of-focus. I then tried various sharpening/deblur corrections:



As you can see, allowing Focus Magic to do it's own thing (it selected a deblur of 6px) has given  pretty good result.  Sharpening in ACR marginally improves MTF50 and MTF Nyquist, but at the cost of haloes (I did the very best I could in ACR and found that a high amount and fairly high radius (around 3) gave the best result).

So what this tells me is that if I've messed up the focus in a shot but I still need the photo, that I'm wasting my time trying to correct it in LR/ACR.  If the only other choice is Focus Magic, then I am probably just as well off using that in one pass (3rd line down), although the one in the 2nd line down is better but much more time-consuming (I applied Focus Magic 3 times with varying amounts of Fade after each pass).

What I will try is another deblur plug-in like InFocus.  If it is much better than Focus Magic for this type of defocus then this may give me a reason to buy it.  I'll also have a look at piccure+ as this seems to be getting good press in this topic.

Robert
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