Can Macbook Pro thunderbolt power P/P+ back without battery?

[jazzy]

Hi everyone,

I would like to upgrade to the new Macbook Pro however can not verify for sure if the thunderbolt port and the Appple thunderbolt firewire adapter can power a P/P+ back. I have a back with poor battery connection and use firewire power exclusively when shooting tethered. Phase One literature advises that you have battery, however I really want to hear from real world experience.

If you have both please let me know. Many thanks

[JoeKitchen]

I use a modern MacBook with no firewire and have had no problems with the back being powered without a battery, so long as the connection does not break. 

I have used my P45+ and an IQ260 with no battery and the backs run fine. 

Right now though, I have found that my connections are failing more and more often.  This may be due to a worn dongle, the fact that I am using a non-Phase wire (the one that came with my back died), or that the thunderbolt connections on the computer are just not designed for constant continuous use. 

One of the perks that sounds great about the new back just released is the HDMI connection, which I feel is a much more stable connection. 

[jazzy]

Hi Joe,

Thank you for your reply. That's exactly what I'm looking for.

So just to confirm, you use the Apple thunderbolt firewire adapter, and a 800 to 400 firewire cable to power your P45+ yes?

Does the 800 to 400 cable have to be of certain specification, or a generic one would do?

Many thanks.

[TonyVentourisPhotography]

I have a P45 and my macbook cannot RELIABLY power it via thunderbolt.  Trust me, it gets very annoying when clients are over your shoulder and the camera keeps disappearing from C1.  And then it has to be powered down, started back up, reconnected.  It wastes time.  Apparently the thunderbolt port doesn't provide quite the same amount.

Capture Integration sent me a solution that works well.  Its a power stripper for the cable connection.  Then I can plug my P45 via firewire into a powered hub, which then connects to the computer via firewire/thunderbolt adapter.  I only do that if I must be powered all day long with constant camera on. 

Usually I just get by with several batteries when im tethered.  That has been the most reliable to be honest.  However, a cable to the Macbook pro without a battery in the camera has not been reliable.  It works...but it was certainly not worth the trouble.  Capture Integration has a big article about it on their blog somewhere too.

[Joe Towner]

Not to be a punk, but this topic is well covered in many other threads...  These threads pull up with a plain search of 'firewire thunderbolt'.

http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=92520.msg752819
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=100491.msg823584
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=85462.msg692488
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=69382.msg555645

Firewire cable quality matters, as does consistent power.  Do it right and you won't have issues, go cheap, and you'll spend more money buying the recommended components.  A powered firewire hub is the answer to all questions, even on the POCP test.

-Joe

[Ken R]

I use a modern MacBook with no firewire and have had no problems with the back being powered without a battery, so long as the connection does not break. 

I have used my P45+ and an IQ260 with no battery and the backs run fine. 

Right now though, I have found that my connections are failing more and more often.  This may be due to a worn dongle, the fact that I am using a non-Phase wire (the one that came with my back died), or that the thunderbolt connections on the computer are just not designed for constant continuous use. 

One of the perks that sounds great about the new back just released is the HDMI connection, which I feel is a much more stable connection.

The thunderbolt plug design is ok but can fail after many plug/unplug cycles. The one in my MBP did. USB seems to be the best of the bunch but even the FW800 is prone to failure resulting in bad connections even with a brand new cable. That is on the computer side of things. The FW800 plug on the Phase Backs is deep and well encased so it is much less prone to issues. The one in most computers is just too shallow and lacks support resulting in it bending (up and down) constantly resulting (eventually) in a bad connection.

LEMO connectors are the best but unfortunately not available on any laptop. (that I now of). Leica uses LEMO connectors on the S cameras but of course that just solves the issue on the camera end and the main problem is on the computer end. But generally USB lasts much longer.

[Christoph B.]

Thunderbolt:

Max. voltage   18 V
Max. current   550 mA


Firewire:

Max. voltage   30 V
Max. current   1.5 A


https://www.phaseone.com/en/Search/Article.aspx?articleid=1256 :

P+ Backs/P backs exc. P20 and P25

"The Thunderbolt Terminal does not have the same Power Output as a standard Firewire Port (400 or 800) so it is recommended that the back used be set to "Battery" as the main power source to avoid communication failure. "

I think some macs may be able to deliver the power needed (Mac Pro, iMac) while those that are built to save power (Macbook Pro, Macbook Air) probably won't. So if you have a P+ back you should use battery power when shooting in the field and tethering the camera via a thunderbolt adapter.

Besides - think of how fast your laptop battery would be drained if you actually powered your back with it during a long shoot.

[orc73]

there is potential for a lot of frustration. If it's possible find another way then tethering with firewire to thunderbolt.

[Christoph B.]

But what other way is there? Afaik a USB/Firewire adapter isn't possible and an externally powered Firewire-Hub is not an option in the field.

[Joe Towner]

But what other way is there? Afaik a USB/Firewire adapter isn't possible and an externally powered Firewire-Hub is not an option in the field.

Why is it not?  There are a number of battery to ac options now available.  I'm leaning in favor of the Vagabond Mini, but there are things like https://chargetech.com/product/portable-power-outlet/ and http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16875949298

-Joe

[Christoph B.]

So instead of using the batteries for the P/P+ back that are readily available and last a long time one should get a power pack that powers USB-Devices/iPod/iPhones and still doesn't help with the firewire connection?

I don't get it ^^

The question was whether a lightweight setup such as a Macbook Pro with a thunderbolt/firewire adapter can power a P/P+ back.

The answer is: no. If you could buy a power pack that would provide power for a firewire connection that still wouldn't help - you'd have to connect the back to it and you'd lose tethering. And it wouldn't make any sense at all, you might as well use the batteries you already have or buy another one for 70€..

[Miyata610]

Slightly off topic....

I have found that, regardless of the power supplied to the DB, my H25 simply does not work through the Firewire-Thunderbolt adapter.

Capture One recognises it, the light is green, it flashes green after the image is taken while it transmits it to CO, it even beeps to say it works.

The image arrives at CO, and is of normal file size....... but it's just black.

Oh well, I'll stick with the old MacBook Pro with native FW.

[Joe Towner]

So instead of using the batteries for the P/P+ back that are readily available and last a long time one should get a power pack that powers USB-Devices/iPod/iPhones and still doesn't help with the firewire connection?

I don't get it ^^

The question was whether a lightweight setup such as a Macbook Pro with a thunderbolt/firewire adapter can power a P/P+ back.

The answer is: no. If you could buy a power pack that would provide power for a firewire connection that still wouldn't help - you'd have to connect the back to it and you'd lose tethering. And it wouldn't make any sense at all, you might as well use the batteries you already have or buy another one for 70€..

The answer is yes -  digital back ---  fw800 ---  powered fw800 hub -----  fw800-tb adapter --- Mac

The power packs linked to have an A/C outlet, which can be used to power said firewire hub thus maintaining tethering in the field.  It adds some 2 lbs to the equation, but should support any back including a Hasselblad back that doesn't have an internal battery option (they're the grip on the body).

The other option is something like the, though I'm hesitant to try it myself -  CFB-9902-EP from http://newnex.com/straight_firewire.php


It would need either a dc battery or an ac source + dc supply.  Needless to say, I'm not ready to try it myself.

While not ideal, it's a solution.

[Christoph B.]

The thing is - I don't think there's any advantage over using batteries for the back, but there are a lot of drawbacks.

1. If one battery fails you still have other for backup - not so much with an external power pack.

2. bulk and weight - 2 pounds plus additional cables etc....

3. how safe are those power packs and how precise is their power output? Would you really want to risk frying your back or laptop?

[Joe Towner]

Evidently there is a crossing of thoughts.  While the OP asks about tethering without a battery, I'm expecting the battery, as to work without one is sketchy at best.  Power will vary between FW800 implementations, and the FW-TB adapter is a non-starter.  I seem to recall the IQ series requires a battery for the back, and has the ability to enable high or low speed recharge or disable charging of said battery while tethered.  The IQ firmware also has the ability to ignore power over FW, running the back from the battery.  iMacs are known to have issues supplying enough power over firewire. 

It may work, but best practices with regard to the TB-FW adapter say use a powered hub.

The thing is - I don't think there's any advantage over using batteries for the back, but there are a lot of drawbacks.

1. If one battery fails you still have other for backup - not so much with an external power pack.

2. bulk and weight - 2 pounds plus additional cables etc....

3. how safe are those power packs and how precise is their power output? Would you really want to risk frying your back or laptop?

[orc73]

if you can you might want to keep the old mbp for tethering only.
I dont know how much sense that makes in your workflow.