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Author Topic: High end apsc vs low end FF?  (Read 4098 times)

skierd

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High end apsc vs low end FF?
« on: December 31, 2015, 01:31:48 pm »

Sorry if this is something that's been covered ad nauseum...

Im currently own a Pentax K30 and a couple good lenses (HD DA 20-40 limited, DA*50-135 mainly) and generally like what I get. Then I borrowed my friends D600. Once I opened the files in Lightroom, they were noticeably better than what I get from my K-30 in terms of noise and overall IQ,

Ive been pretty certain about upgrading to a K3ii and sticking with Pentax, but now I'm thinking about picking up a lower end FF camera. If I sold everything I could probably barely afford a D750 and 24-120 f4. I could more easily afford a refurbished 6D ($1000 on canon USA right now) and 24-105L.

So I guess the question is, is a 6D an upgrade over the K3ii? I usually post on Pentax forums but the bias is strong there.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: High end apsc vs low end FF?
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2015, 01:42:08 pm »

Hi,

Good question, and I really don't know. Personally, I feel that APS-C is perfectly OK for say 16"x23" prints. I upgraded from APS-C to full frame back in 2008, but I still have some APS-C lenses and an APS-C camera (Sony A77). I used to use the Sony A77 for street shooting.

On the sensor side, Pentax is making some cameras, taking full advantage of the sensors. It is a well published secret that Pentax is coming with a full frame body really soon now. I guess that the new full-frame Pentax will be able to use your APS-C lenses. For the moment, I would just wait.

Best regards
Erik



Sorry if this is something that's been covered ad nauseum...

Im currently own a Pentax K30 and a couple good lenses (HD DA 20-40 limited, DA*50-135 mainly) and generally like what I get. Then I borrowed my friends D600. Once I opened the files in Lightroom, they were noticeably better than what I get from my K-30 in terms of noise and overall IQ,

Ive been pretty certain about upgrading to a K3ii and sticking with Pentax, but now I'm thinking about picking up a lower end FF camera. If I sold everything I could probably barely afford a D750 and 24-120 f4. I could more easily afford a refurbished 6D ($1000 on canon USA right now) and 24-105L.

So I guess the question is, is a 6D an upgrade over the K3ii? I usually post on Pentax forums but the bias is strong there.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

AlterEgo

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Re: High end apsc vs low end FF?
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2015, 01:42:49 pm »

Im currently own a Pentax K30 and a couple good lenses (HD DA 20-40 limited, DA*50-135 mainly) and generally like what I get. Then I borrowed my friends D600. Once I opened the files in Lightroom, they were noticeably better than what I get from my K-30 in terms of noise and overall IQ,

certainly there is no replacement for displacement (S/N above deep shadows from modern FF vs modern APS-C when you compare equal sensor saturation and resize to equal mp) - _but_ did you check that you expose you K30 raw files properly ? no, LR is not the tool to check the exposure -> www.rawdigger.com or even www.fastrawviewer.com - trial version shall do
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AlterEgo

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Re: High end apsc vs low end FF?
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2015, 01:48:37 pm »

It is a well published secret that Pentax is coming with a full frame body really soon now. I guess that the new full-frame Pentax will be able to use your APS-C lenses. For the moment, I would just wait.
his lenses are "DA" - they are not FF compatible... makes no sense to stick with Ricoh/Pentax in his situation, sell lenses and body and move on.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: High end apsc vs low end FF?
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2015, 01:57:42 pm »

Hi,

Yes, I am aware of that. But, I would believe the new Pentax will support crop mode lenses. For instance, I have been shooting crop frame fisheye on my full frame Sonys for some time. The APS-C Sigma is quite OK, but Sony full frame fisheye is from the previous millenium and doesn't have an MTF-curve I would put on my camera.

Pentax used to make very good use of the Sony sensors.

Best regards
Erik


his lenses are "DA" - they are not FF compatible... makes no sense to stick with Ricoh/Pentax in his situation, sell lenses and body and move on.
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AlterEgo

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Re: High end apsc vs low end FF?
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2015, 01:58:37 pm »

So I guess the question is, is a 6D an upgrade over the K3ii?

Canon has good replacements for your Pentax zooms, even way better @ wider angle (24mm vs ~30mm eq FOV that you have now)

APS-C, 20-40/2.8-4.0 ~= FF 24-70/4.0
APS-C, 50-135/2.8 ~= FF 70-200/4.0
« Last Edit: December 31, 2015, 02:02:23 pm by AlterEgo »
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AlterEgo

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Re: High end apsc vs low end FF?
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2015, 02:02:06 pm »

Yes, I am aware of that. But, I would believe the new Pentax will support crop mode lenses.

yes, indeed, buying FF camera to use crop mode when his 2 lenses ( screw driven 20-40 and micromotor driven 50-135 ) are perfectly replaceable w/ FF alternatives in other system



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AlterEgo

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Re: High end apsc vs low end FF?
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2015, 02:06:26 pm »

Pentax used to make very good use of the Sony sensors.
so does Nikon and Canon is making a very good use of Canon sensors too... I do not see Canon shooters producing worse images than anybody else even with their handicap with DR @ low gains (I do not own C cameras myself - so no bias)...

I can understand sticking with Pentax for collections of the Lims or FA* from the old days, but other than that ?
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NancyP

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Re: High end apsc vs low end FF?
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2015, 02:33:46 pm »

I am a happy 6D user, and if you don't need the famous Pentax water resistance feature or high end sport-photography frame rate and autofocus, a 6D's full frame sensor will clean the clock of any APS-C size Bayer-type sensor for image quality.

If you have legacy full frame glass and like manual lenses, the Canon 6D may be the best of the DSLRs able to accommodate the largest range of legacy lenses. Canon EF mount has a very short lens flange to sensor distance and a very wide flange to boot, so many other manufacturers' manual lenses can be adapted. Plus, unlike the fancier 5D3, the focusing screen can be swapped out for a finer-grain screen that makes it much more pleasant to use manual focus. (Nothing beats a split prism screen, but those don't play well with metering).
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Rob C

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Re: High end apsc vs low end FF?
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2015, 02:47:46 pm »

I am a happy 6D user, and if you don't need the famous Pentax water resistance feature or high end sport-photography frame rate and autofocus, a 6D's full frame sensor will clean the clock of any APS-C size Bayer-type sensor for image quality.

If you have legacy full frame glass and like manual lenses, the Canon 6D may be the best of the DSLRs able to accommodate the largest range of legacy lenses. Canon EF mount has a very short lens flange to sensor distance and a very wide flange to boot, so many other manufacturers' manual lenses can be adapted. Plus, unlike the fancier 5D3, the focusing screen can be swapped out for a finer-grain screen that makes it much more pleasant to use manual focus. (Nothing beats a split prism screen, but those don't play well with metering).


That should be engraved on the back of every camera maker's head-honcho's hands. I miss that item the most of the lot. With it, I wouldn't now be the forced owner of two 50mm Nikkors, one manual and the other af, the latter bought when my glaucoma was knocking the pegs from my focussing ability. I still struggle on doing manual with the rest of the lenses, though, but use them less and less in favour of 50mm.

Rob C

skierd

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Re: High end apsc vs low end FF?
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2015, 03:39:19 pm »

I didn't realize that the 6D didn't have any weather sealing?

I do pretty good with my current glass...




Denali autumn bw web-7000 by David Dawson, on Flickr

I'm just ready for a different body for low light and night work, especially auroras, and better high ISO quality, especially since I end up out at dusk looking for wildlife and have done some portrait work indoors where I wanted cleaner files.  I travel to Denali National park once a week for work so I've started getting a bug for wildlife. 
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NancyP

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Re: High end apsc vs low end FF?
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2015, 06:18:29 pm »

Oh, there's some minimal weather resistance on the 6D, but not much - it's an under-engineered entry-level body with a good low light sensor and not much else, after all, not a high end meant-to-be-abused camera like the Canon 1DX (NIkon D4) pro full frame camera or new Canon 7D2. As opposed to recent Pentax DSLRs - there are always a few "Pentax K DSLR getting dropped in the water, owner fishes it out in a minute, camera still works fine" or "Pentax K DSLR used in downpour for hours, not protected by camera "raincoat", works fine" videos or other stories. That level of environmental resistance in low-end camera bodies (used with certain mid- and high- end "WR*"  lenses) is a unique design feature of Pentax. I had my 6D with (cheap but really good optically) 40mm f/2.8 STM pancake lens go on strike repeatedly on a very rainy hike, probably from capillary creep of water from ambient humidity at lens mount or maybe buttons - I had it under my raincoat hidden from direct splash, just took it out for shots very briefly, trusting in my raincoat hood overhang to protect camera while it was held to my eye. Well, it worked later on once I had serviced it in the car: turned it off, had dried it off on the outside, removed battery, removed lens, replaced battery and lens, turned back on, presto works!
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skierd

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Re: High end apsc vs low end FF?
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2015, 09:07:31 pm »

Well that's kinda disappointing.  Is Nikon as bad with decontenting the D610?  I prefer Nikon overall anyway, but was drawn in by the 6D's price.

Might just end up waiting and seeing what happens with the photo shows this spring, if anything in terms of sale prices.

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Colorado David

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Re: High end apsc vs low end FF?
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2015, 10:59:54 pm »

I have nothing to offer in regards to your original question.  I just wanted to say I've stood in the same spot and photographed in Denali Park.  I was in a cluster of photographers, photographing moose during the rut the last week of August/first week of September.  There was a woman frantically approaching everyone asking if we had CF cards we could sell.  I was the only one of the group that seemed to take note of the dramatic landscape behind the moose.

alatreille

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Re: High end apsc vs low end FF?
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2015, 11:55:36 pm »

Lovely image.

I've shot Pentax glass and bodies for close to 20 years.
I also shoot the FF Canon system.

Both have merits to them.

Personally, I find the Pentax bodies, user interface....well, the whole experience really pleasant.
The 5dsr is a hell of alot better than my K5ii.  Then if I through the 645z in there I get confused.
The K5ii is better in lowlight than my K20.  A K20 which would have a sensor maybe one step back from the K30 I think?  (I'm sure Pentax Forums could correct this)

I've worked on some 6d files from a second shooter I had working for me.  I didn't like the files as much as the cameras I was shooting at the same time; 5dmk2 and Pentax K5ii.  In fact the K5ii files were much better to work on.  Something about the 6d just wasn't right, but I couldn't ever put a finger on it.  He had bracketed the images, so I had exposures to work with.

In the end, I think if you move up to a new Pentax body, you're going to get a Sony sensor.  Rumour has it these are pretty good...possibly better than a low end Canon FF sensor. ;-)
You'll have a great body and plenty of options for lenses both FF or crop that you can use, and a system you're familiar with, along with some lenses to get started with.

FF or APSC...I think the big difference is what options you have put in front of the sensor.  Canon has an advantage there.

Oh yeah - you can replace the focusing screens on all Pentax Cameras to date...
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: High end apsc vs low end FF?
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2016, 05:13:22 am »

Wouldn't it make sense to wait for the Pentax FF body?

Cheers,
Bernard

alatreille

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Re: High end apsc vs low end FF?
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2016, 10:00:54 pm »

The lenses he likely only cover an APSC sensor.

Wouldn't it make sense to wait for the Pentax FF body?

Cheers,
Bernard
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: High end apsc vs low end FF?
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2016, 10:25:38 pm »

The lenses he likely only cover an APSC sensor.

Indeed, but the problem will be the same with a 6D.

My view is that at base ISO the APS-C camera already owned by the OP is probably as good as the FF 6D, but is behind at high ISO.

I am unclear about the reasons to consider FF, but I guess the expectation is better DR/better high ISO image quality/more resolution?

If he likes the attributes of his Pentax, he is likely to like the FF Pentax better than the Nikon (I would go with a D750 any time over a 6D/5DIII unless I'd be invested in Canon lenses).

Cheers,
Bernard

skierd

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Re: High end apsc vs low end FF?
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2016, 05:14:03 am »

Correct, I am hoping for better high ISO performance and greater resolution, and wouldn't mind better AF performance while I'm at it with a larger viewfinder.

My DA 40mm Limited is full frame compatible, in fact I use it most often on my Pentax ZX-7 film body. The 20-40 and the 50-135 do not cover the FF image circle though the 50-135 isn't completely useless.

At this point I'm going to wait and see what comes from the various photo shows over the next few weeks. If I were to switch systems, from what I'm seeing I like Nikon bodies and Canon glass...  Go figure. If I stayed put, the FA limited trio plus the DFA 150-450 and a WR walk around zoom would be good too.

I should also add that output is part of the equation. I will mostly be printing under 16x20, but like to have the option to go to 20x30 or a touch larger when needed especially for gallery/show submissions.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2016, 05:48:03 am by skierd »
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