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Author Topic: Why 80MP for Landscapes  (Read 15101 times)

Theodoros

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2016, 08:04:22 am »

With 9 (real) pixels of capture packed in (only) 1 mm^2 of print (meaning 72ppi) and provided there are no artifacts, there can't be any luck of detail whatsoever, especially if one masters well the process of printing and care has been taken on the glass used for the capture....
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landscapephoto

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2016, 08:41:11 am »

I'm not too sure about his comment: "Those Bayer arrays we use today are only about 25% efficient, at best. Those colored filters toss out out three-fourths of the light before it even gets to the sensor". It sounds like he is falling in the old trap that is often used by Foveon proponents.

It is true that to separate Chromaticity from Luminance, a filter is used, and filters absorb or reflect part of the spectum. However, in the Bayer CFA, the filtered out colors, say 2/3rd in a worst case of full spectrum light, are added back by interpolation from neighboring sensor elements. So no light is wasted, it is just partly sampled and partly interpolated, and the sum is larger than the filtered part alone.

In addition, some parts of the spectrum are filtered out, but maybe they do not exist in the subject to begin with, in its color we are capturing.

The only thing that can be said is that filters do lose some of the incoming energy (they are not spectrally pure, peak transmission is less than 100%) and convert it it to heat. I'm sure there will be methods available to separate color in a more efficient way, but the cost will be relatively high for the gain that can be had.

Video cameras have used a more efficient technology for ages: the 3 sensors models use interference filters to separate light into transmitted and reflected bands. This allows to split a beam into its colour components without losing energy. It gains a little less than 1 ISO value compared to a camera with a chip of the same size and a Bayer array.

The technology is not used for photo cameras, because the beam splitter imposes conditions on the lens which are not compatible with interchangeable lenses for photography.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2016, 10:43:23 am »

The technology is not used for photo cameras, because the beam splitter imposes conditions on the lens which are not compatible with interchangeable lenses for photography.

Hi,

Not only that, but it's getting harder to realign/register the split sensor images as resolution gets higher. It's also heavier and more bulky to have three sensors than to split at the sensor/photosite level itself.

Cheers,
Bart
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jng

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2016, 12:16:41 pm »

When you use CC to upres, do you use the new resampling algorithms? Do you do another round of sharpening afterwards?

Generally I use "preserve details." As I intimated in my previous post, nothing too sophisticated but it seems to work for these modest enlargements up to 1.5x native. Sharpening is always done as the last step, after resizing.

In terms of the benefits of higher resolution (the original topic of this thread), I find the images from the 60 Mp sensor to be quite stunning in detail. One hits a point of diminishing returns in terms of diffraction when stopping down (at f/11, Airy disc of ~15 microns - compare to 6 micron pixel pitch of the 60 Mp full frame MF sensor). However as previously mentioned here and elsewhere, more data is (are?) a good thing but an 80 Mp MFDB is simply out of reach for me.

- John
« Last Edit: January 02, 2016, 12:26:10 pm by jng »
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2016, 02:11:17 pm »

Interesting comments about Ctein's post.  I took two things from his article that intrigued me as technology develops.

first I'm not an engineer, but regarding the idea that a sensel is currently inefficient, I'm not sure how inefficient they are, but certainly they have some inefficiency in them. If you filter out all visible light other than a narrow spectrum, it seems inefficient.  If there were a viable panchromatic sensor, where the sensel could not only measure the amount of light but the frequency, seems it would be a game changer.  No bayer filter, no artifacts from demoisacing, and no filtering of any photon that hits the sensor. Seems pretty efficient compared to what we have.  As to whether that's commercially viable in the near future ... don't ask me.  He seems to think so, but maybe near future to him is a couple of decades.

The one that interested me more and which I've heard is being worked on is the idea of a sensor that can reset any individual sensel when it reaches max charge, and then continue to count.  Seems to me this would be a dramatic increase in dynamic range ... blown pixels wouldn't exist.

However, the main reason I linked it wasn't his article but my rather lengthy response to his article which is directed at the original topic of why 80mp. I realize now I should have just restated here rather than link it so here it is. (for context, I was mainly responding to an earlier comment, not Ctein's article, that was trying to compare camera technology to computer technology, using the analogy to point out that current computer technology has surpassed the needs of 99% of the users out there so there isn't much reason to continue to upgrade - and that camera/sensor technology has evolved in a similar path.)

"Regarding the idea of most people not needing it (I assume we are discussing buyers of photo gear which means they are after more than their very capable smart phone can deliver), I have a slightly different perspective. To me it’s about most captures not needing it—but then some do. As one who produces prints for photographers, at least 20–30 large prints or canvas wraps a month leave my store which suffer from serious quality issues because someone wants a bigger print than the detail in the image can pleasantly render. Many small prints also suffer because they have been cropped and not enough data is left to render the image at the desired size.

"So to me it's not 'if' we need need, it, but 'when' we need it. When I'm out shooting, most of the things I shoot could have been easy handled by a less capable device, but then a few times a year I get an image that looks best printed large (which happens to be what 'floats my boat' so to speak). I've had discussions with many customers who say they are completely happy with their current gear, because they never print larger than 13x19, then they show up and want a 40x60. We never know when we are going to capture that special image or need to do some serious cropping. Ironically this means our gear is good enough for most of what we shoot, but perhaps isn’t good enough for our best work."

"As far as the computer analogy, I agree for most needs were met by computers a few generations ago. But I’m not sure we are using less capable computing devices, it's more about a new class of device supplying what we need in a more convenient form factor. A current iPad Pro has more computing and graphics power than most computers of just a few years ago, so the device is still continuing to get more powerful, but the form factor has changed the game. To compare that to cameras, perhaps the 99% number regarding photography works if you consider everyone who takes pictures (which is most of the human population).

"But just as computers can be broken down based on needs, there are niche markets of people who need more computing power. And fortunately there are enough photographers who want more than a cell phone can deliver so we have a niche market size large enough to appeal to several companies to supply those needs. Once we narrow our field to this group I don’t think the 99% number is accurate (again because I think at that point we are talking about captures which need it, not people).

"I don't know whether a game changing new form factor is in store for photographers (wouldn't surprise me) but as the equipment becomes more capable through progression as outlined by Ctein, many who don't think they need it will find on occasion they wish they had it. The good news is if you don’t want or can’t afford to be on the bleeding edge in gear and don’t rush out and buy the latest and greatest, at least there are enough photographers who do to keep driving the technology forward. This means eventually almost everyone will find occasion to be using better gear than they have today, and will find on some occasions, some captures benefit."
« Last Edit: January 03, 2016, 12:58:52 am by Wayne Fox »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #45 on: January 02, 2016, 03:31:21 pm »

Hi Wayne,

I think you put it very well.

What scares me ab it is the hostility to progress among some users. It may be that we don't need what technology can deliver but we may need it one day.

Personally, I normally print at A2, maximising print size, because it is what my desktop printer can print. Now, I also have wall size limitations, but I really don't mind print large, and more pixels will always be helpful doing that. Also more pixels make never any harm, expect filling up the hard drive.

Now, nothing fills up the hard drive faster than 16-bit TIFFs, so the best way of handling disk space is to use a parametric workflow. Doing most of the work in Lightroom, Darktable or whatever and just optimising in Photoshop when needed.

Best regards
Erik


Interesting comments about Ctein's post.  I took two things from his article that intrigued me as technology develops.

first I'm not an engineer, but regarding the idea that a pixel is currently inefficient, I'm not sure how inefficient they are, but certainly they have some inefficiency in them. If you filter out all visible light other than that a narrow spectrum, it seems inefficient.  If there were a viable panchromatic sensor, where the sensel could not only measure the amount of light but the frequency, seems it would be a game changer.  No bayer filter, no artifacts from demoisacing, and no filtering of any photon that hits the sensor. Seems pretty efficient compared to what we have.  As to whether that's commercially viable in the near future ... don't ask me.  He seems to think so, but maybe near future to him is a couple of decades.

The one that interested me more and which I've heard is being worked on is the idea of a sensor that can reset any individual sensel when it reaches max charge, and then continue to count.  Seems to me this would be a dramatic increase in dynamic range ... blown pixels wouldn't exist.

However, the main reason I linked it wasn't his article but my rather lengthy response to his article which is directed at the original topic of why 80mp. I realize now I should have just restated here rather than link it so here it is. (for context, I was mainly responding to an earlier comment, not Ctein's article, that was trying to compare camera technology to computer technology, using the analogy to point out that current computer technology has surpassed the needs of 99% of the users out there so there isn't much reason to continue to upgrade - and that camera/sensor technology has evolved in a similar path.)

"Regarding the idea of most people not needing it (I assume we are discussing buyers of photo gear which means they are after more than their very capable smart phone can deliver), I have a slightly different perspective. To me it’s about most captures not needing it—but then some do. As one who produces prints for photographers, at least 20–30 large prints or canvas wraps a month leave my store which suffer from serious quality issues because someone wants a bigger print than the detail in the image can pleasantly render. Many small prints also suffer because they have been cropped and not enough data is left to render the image at the desired size.

"So to me it's not 'if' we need need, it, but 'when' we need it. When I'm out shooting, most of the things I shoot could have been easy handled by a less capable device, but then a few times a year I get an image that looks best printed large (which happens to be what 'floats my boat' so to speak). I've had discussions with many customers who say they are completely happy with their current gear, because they never print larger than 13x19, then they show up and want a 40x60. We never know when we are going to capture that special image or need to do some serious cropping. Ironically this means our gear is good enough for most of what we shoot, but perhaps isn’t good enough for our best work."

"As far as the computer analogy, I agree for most needs were met by computers a few generations ago. But I’m not sure we are using less capable computing devices, it's more about a new class of device supplying what we need in a more convenient form factor. A current iPad Pro has more computing and graphics power than most computers of just a few years ago, so the device is still continuing to get more powerful, but the form factor has changed the game. To compare that to cameras, perhaps the 99% number regarding photography works if you consider everyone who takes pictures (which is most of the human population).

"But just as computers can be broken down based on needs, there are niche markets of people who need more computing power. And fortunately there are enough photographers who want more than a cell phone can deliver so we have a niche market size large enough to appeal to several companies to supply those needs. Once we narrow our field to this group I don’t think the 99% number is accurate (again because I think at that point we are talking about captures which need it, not people).

"I don't know whether a game changing new form factor is in store for photographers (wouldn't surprise me) but as the equipment becomes more capable through progression as outlined by Ctein, many who don't think they need it will find on occasion they wish they had it. The good news is if you don’t want or can’t afford to be on the bleeding edge in gear and don’t rush out and buy the latest and greatest, at least there are enough photographers who do to keep driving the technology forward. This means eventually almost everyone will find occasion to be using better gear than they have today, and will find on some occasions, some captures benefit."
« Last Edit: January 03, 2016, 04:42:14 am by ErikKaffehr »
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landscapephoto

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2016, 04:34:41 am »

regarding the idea that a sensel is currently inefficient, I'm not sure how inefficient they are, but certainly they have some inefficiency in them. If you filter out all visible light other than a narrow spectrum, it seems inefficient.

Current sensors have some inefficiency, but:
-first, not that much, maybe 30%
-second, we would need large gains to see the difference. For example, one stop in ISO would need to double the efficiency. As I already wrote, with the present high iso fashion, we are pretty close to counting individual photons. For example, at ISO6400, typical values collected by your individual camera pixels will be between 1 and 1000 photons.

I am only describing iso here, but the same can be said for other values like dynamic range or resolution. We are not that far from the limits of light itself.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2016, 04:46:20 am »

Hi,

Just to add, improving efficiency doesn't really matter if shooting landscape mostly. That just means higher ISO. Now, high ISO is often a good thing, like for stoping motion, but a single stop of ISO will not help that much.

Best regards
Erik

Current sensors have some inefficiency, but:
-first, not that much, maybe 30%
-second, we would need large gains to see the difference. For example, one stop in ISO would need to double the efficiency. As I already wrote, with the present high iso fashion, we are pretty close to counting individual photons. For example, at ISO6400, typical values collected by your individual camera pixels will be between 1 and 1000 photons.

I am only describing iso here, but the same can be said for other values like dynamic range or resolution. We are not that far from the limits of light itself.
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Ken R

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2016, 07:49:26 am »

Current sensors have some inefficiency, but:
-first, not that much, maybe 30%
-second, we would need large gains to see the difference. For example, one stop in ISO would need to double the efficiency. As I already wrote, with the present high iso fashion, we are pretty close to counting individual photons. For example, at ISO6400, typical values collected by your individual camera pixels will be between 1 and 1000 photons.

I am only describing iso here, but the same can be said for other values like dynamic range or resolution. We are not that far from the limits of light itself.

Exactly, the laws of Physics still apply to photography!

Most landscape photographers mostly care about 3 things besides resolution when choosing a camera/sensor: Low Iso Dynamic Range (15-16 stops would be nice, clean shadows), Long Exposure performance (low noise, some require much longer exposures than others) and Color Depth / Quality (Differentiation and Accuracy).

Right now the best sensor that combines all three things with resolution is the one in the IQ380. But if DR is much more important to you and also high iso performance then the 50 MP Sony sensor backs are the best choice. For using with tech camera lenses I still prefer the 60 MP dalsa sensor (IQ160 etc) but the 80 MP dalsa sensor is close and some might prefer it. 
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landscapephoto

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2016, 08:46:39 am »

Most landscape photographers mostly care about 3 things besides resolution when choosing a camera/sensor: Low Iso Dynamic Range (15-16 stops would be nice, clean shadows), Long Exposure performance (low noise, some require much longer exposures than others) and Color Depth / Quality (Differentiation and Accuracy).

Low Iso Dynamic Range: a 14 bits ADC limits you to 14 bits dynamic range when everything else is perfectly noiseless. We have 16 bits ADCs (in a few MF cameras only), but the word is that the 2 last bits are just noise.
Also: a quick back of the enveloppe calculation shows that a perfectly noiseless reproduction chain with 100% quantum efficiency and no lens flare would be limited to a bit less than 16 stops for a 100iso sensor by photon shot noise itself, which is a direct consequence of the quantum nature of light (I may be off by ±1 stop in that calculation, but I expect that internet experts will correct me).

Long Exposure performance: ask the astronomers. They believe that thermal noise makes it necessary to cool the detector for long exposure. They probably have reasons.

Differentiation and Accuracy of colour: that is a complete can of worms, which I would rather leave shut close. I'll suggest to order ISO standard 17321 instead.
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Christoph B.

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2016, 03:09:07 pm »

Next up:

Why 100MP for Landscapes ;D
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Chris Livsey

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #51 on: January 03, 2016, 03:15:42 pm »

Right now the best sensor that combines all three things with resolution is the one in the IQ380. But if DR is much more important to you and also high iso performance then the 50 MP Sony sensor backs are the best choice. For using with tech camera lenses I still prefer the 60 MP dalsa sensor (IQ160 etc) but the 80 MP dalsa sensor is close and some might prefer it.

How soon the future is with us:-
- Full Frame 645
- 15 stops dynamic range
- CMOS Sensor
- ISO 50 to ISO 12,800
- Electronic First Curtain Shutter
- HDMI Output (e.g. live view with a 7” battery-powered display untethered)
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kers

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #52 on: January 03, 2016, 03:24:45 pm »

Next up:
Why 100MP for Landscapes ;D

For landscape photography with focus beyond 10m, at least not all MPs are wasted because of shallow depth of field.

...
- HDMI Output (e.g. live view with a 7” battery-powered display untethered)

did anybody find a battery display yet with HD quality ( 1920*1080)...? i am stuck @600x800px
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #53 on: January 03, 2016, 03:27:30 pm »

Hi,

The new backs seem to be optimal for view cameras, probably offering excellent live view. Perhaps they have peaking, too?

A small question to my mind, how do they play with tilt and shift? That used to be a problem with the A7r generation of sensors but seems to be better with backside illuminated A7rII sensors. Has the new 100 MP back BSI?

No doubt in my mind, having a current generation of CMOS sensor in full frame 645 must be most welcome for anyone in search of the ultimate image quality. I always felt that a modern CMOS back was the best pairing for cameras like the Alpa FPS, or my special favourite that I never bought, the Hartblei HCam B1.

Best regards
Erik

How soon the future is with us:-
- Full Frame 645
- 15 stops dynamic range
- CMOS Sensor
- ISO 50 to ISO 12,800
- Electronic First Curtain Shutter
- HDMI Output (e.g. live view with a 7” battery-powered display untethered)
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Ken R

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #54 on: January 03, 2016, 03:48:48 pm »

Next up:

Why 100MP for Landscapes ;D

This thread is done, we need a new thread  ;D 8)
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #55 on: January 03, 2016, 04:41:08 pm »

Very tempting to sign a check today, but I'll wait till March to see what Pentax comes up with!

Cheers,
Bernard

Ken R

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #56 on: January 03, 2016, 05:26:16 pm »

Very tempting to sign a check today, but I'll wait till March to see what Pentax comes up with!

Cheers,
Bernard

I do not think Pentax has the glass for this sensor. Ironically the older lenses might work well but some of the newer ones might not. IIRC the 28-45mm is made to cover the 33x44mm sensor but not a larger sensor. Same thing with Hasselblad HCD lenses (the 24mm, the 28mm and the 35-90mm). They are no go for the monster 100MP Sony/Phase sensor.
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torger

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #57 on: January 04, 2016, 04:57:39 am »

I do not think Pentax has the glass for this sensor. Ironically the older lenses might work well but some of the newer ones might not. IIRC the 28-45mm is made to cover the 33x44mm sensor but not a larger sensor. Same thing with Hasselblad HCD lenses (the 24mm, the 28mm and the 35-90mm). They are no go for the monster 100MP Sony/Phase sensor.

It's not automatically a problem that a sensor is has so high resolving power that it shows the limits of the optical system. In fact I think that is how it should be. MFD has suffered the alias sickness for too long, where aliasing is considered "good image quality", when it's actually the opposite.

But anyway, the Hasselblad digital system was first designed with the expectation that the high end MFD format would be 49x37mm, but that's now a dead format. It's indeed a credibilitity issue with the pixel hunters, but there's still many sharp lenses in their lineup and quite a few do full-frame well as far as I understand.

I don't think Pentax ever thought about supporting 54x41mm digitally, but maybe they will rethink that now? I think it would be great for their product range to have both a 44x33 and a 54x41 body in their lineup, but it would surely be a few years before there's lenses to match the resolving power of the Phase One XF system...
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eronald

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #58 on: January 04, 2016, 08:37:01 am »

It would be faster for Pentax to design a wide fixed lens mirrorless compact tham to redo their lens range.

Their is probably space for a new Makina.

Edmund


It's not automatically a problem that a sensor is has so high resolving power that it shows the limits of the optical system. In fact I think that is how it should be. MFD has suffered the alias sickness for too long, where aliasing is considered "good image quality", when it's actually the opposite.

But anyway, the Hasselblad digital system was first designed with the expectation that the high end MFD format would be 49x37mm, but that's now a dead format. It's indeed a credibilitity issue with the pixel hunters, but there's still many sharp lenses in their lineup and quite a few do full-frame well as far as I understand.

I don't think Pentax ever thought about supporting 54x41mm digitally, but maybe they will rethink that now? I think it would be great for their product range to have both a 44x33 and a 54x41 body in their lineup, but it would surely be a few years before there's lenses to match the resolving power of the Phase One XF system...
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kers

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #59 on: January 04, 2016, 09:16:03 am »

It would be faster for Pentax to design a wide fixed lens mirrorless compact tham to redo their lens range.
Their is probably space for a new Makina.
Edmund

A good idea, but then this 100MP back seems al at once awfully big...

A 6x4,5  Sony7 would do the trick. many tricks.

 
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