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Author Topic: Why 80MP for Landscapes  (Read 15138 times)

Mike Sellers

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Why 80MP for Landscapes
« on: December 26, 2015, 08:54:06 pm »

Is anyone using a 80mp to capture nature? Why? Is there a practical reason for shooting with 80mp? How much is enough?
Mike
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stevenfr

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2015, 09:18:19 pm »

Big prints. This is a 43" x 57" print and I could print it larger. Image captured using a Phase One XF and a IQ280 back.

http://www.friedmanphoto.com
« Last Edit: December 26, 2015, 09:27:43 pm by stevenfr »
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Mike Sellers

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2015, 09:34:29 pm »

Love your prints and subjects. Are you stitching your panos? Wouldn`t this mage some very large files?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2015, 09:41:32 pm »

Love your prints and subjects. Are you stitching your panos? Wouldn`t this mage some very large files?

Stitching is indeed a great way to achieve very high resolutions without breaking the bank. It doesn't apply to all scenes though.

These images captured last week are between 85 and 200mp, done with stitching:


D810 + Otus 55mm f1.4 - stitching and DoF stacking


D810 + Otus 55mm f1.4 - stitching


D810 + Otus 55mm f1.4 - stitching

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: December 31, 2015, 07:53:26 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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stevenfr

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2015, 09:45:02 pm »

Thanks Mike for the kind feedback. This image is a single shot from my shoot last fall with my friend Tim Wolcott. I have stitched and have some files at 1.7gb as the unrezzed up file.

Steven

http://www.friedmanphoto.com

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2015, 11:16:35 pm »

Well, you can achieve any size of image using stitching, and it works amazingly often…

Best regards
Erik

Stitching is indeed a great way to achieve very high resolutions without breaking the bank. It doesn't apply to all scenes though.

These images captured last week are between 85 and 200mp, done with stitching:


D810 + Otus 55mm f1.4 - stitching and DoF stacking


D810 + Otus 55mm f1.4 - stitching


D810 + Otus 55mm f1.4 - stitching
Cheers,
Bernard
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Ken R

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2015, 02:26:02 pm »

Is anyone using a 80mp to capture nature? Why? Is there a practical reason for shooting with 80mp? How much is enough?
Mike

Go to a Rodney Lough JR. Gallery and look at their more recent very large prints. Look at them really close, nose to the print close.

They were made using files from a PhaseOne IQ180 back, several files stitched in a lot of instances.

That is just one example of many.

Is it 100% necessary? Depends on what you want to achieve.
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Theodoros

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2015, 02:41:58 pm »

I don't know why one should use 80mp for landscapes, but I do know that 10 years ago 80mp backs didn't exist (60mp neither), large prints of landscapes where sold at those days too and people could provide absolutely stunning prints at up to 4.5x6 feet of them...

In fact, I don't find any type of photography (not only landscape) that has improved a bit (actually quality of photographs may be considerably worst now if compared with the past) because of... pixel count!
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2015, 06:38:43 pm »

Hi,

I think that there are many users shooting 80 MP backs for shooting landscape. Landscape images often have a lot of fine detail. Tree tops for instance.

Some landscape photographers sell wall art, for instance and it tends to be printed large.

Now, it is possible to make decent size prints from say 20-24 MP, say 30x40" is quite OK, but I am pretty sure that 40-50 MP would show advantages at that size. Print larger than that? I would think that 80MP would show it's advantage.

What I think I have seen is that say 24 MP is pretty well enough for 16x23", at that size I cannot tell apart a 24MP and a 40MP print, but going up to something 23x32 I am pretty sure the advantage of 40 MP will show.

That said, there can be a lot of discussion about viewing distance, but I feel it is good if you can check a print at any distance.

So, yes, I think that 80 MP is a good thing. If it is worth the money? That is an another question.

Best regards
Erik

Is anyone using a 80mp to capture nature? Why? Is there a practical reason for shooting with 80mp? How much is enough?
Mike
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Theodoros

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2015, 06:48:57 pm »

Printing with a 72ppi output means that one has information of more than 9 pixels included on one (only) square mm of a HUGE print... and that is without any up-sampling method applied... Excuse me, but I would care more on the quality of my pixels than worry if instead of 9 of them in one square mm are 16 or 25...

EDIT: Actually, I would worry much more about the lighting (hence the "looks") of my print, rather than worry if one plays Sherlock Holmes (with a magnifier glass) on it... Also, I (highly) doubt that if one pays for it would appreciate the pixel count to the (lighting) presentation...
« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 06:59:22 pm by Theodoros »
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Ken R

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2015, 08:19:12 pm »

I don't know why one should use 80mp for landscapes, but I do know that 10 years ago 80mp backs didn't exist (60mp neither), large prints of landscapes where sold at those days too and people could provide absolutely stunning prints at up to 4.5x6 feet of them...

In fact, I don't find any type of photography (not only landscape) that has improved a bit (actually quality of photographs may be considerably worst now if compared with the past) because of... pixel count!

Yes. But just because a print is sold does not mean it is a great print.

Most of the very high end landscape photographs 10 years ago were made using 4x5 or 8x10 film. 8x10 was and still is stunning and unequalled by digital. Resolution wise a 2 to 3 image stitch of 80mp files gets close but there is something about the larger capture format of 8x10 and the reduced rate of enlargement when making prints (compared to smaller formats) that makes it look so so good. Color is also amazing with the more recent films.

If I could shoot any format for landscape disregarding cost and convenience it would be 8x10 film (the latest color neg film) plus the appropriate scanning workflow.
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jsiva

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2015, 08:41:01 pm »

I have used the IQ180 for quite some time now...
large prints - yes I like more nose in the print and enjoy prints from close up or far away :)
Files can be huge, in the GBs.
incredible when combined with the right Rodie/SK glass
Works well with tech cam movements, again, with the right glass
At the time, I found the 80 to be better in DR and allowed for longer exposure time than the 60MP backs

I still don't think anything comes close to the IQ180/280/380/Credo 80 for resolution with tech lenses.  Also, pano stitching can get you the resolution, but you also do this with an 80MP back for even more resolution, but more importantly, there are compositions I cannot get with pano stitching that I can with flat stitches.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 01:25:50 am by jsiva »
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Theodoros

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2015, 08:56:03 pm »

Yes. But just because a print is sold does not mean it is a great print.

Most of the very high end landscape photographs 10 years ago were made using 4x5 or 8x10 film. 8x10 was and still is stunning and unequalled by digital. Resolution wise a 2 to 3 image stitch of 80mp files gets close but there is something about the larger capture format of 8x10 and the reduced rate of enlargement when making prints (compared to smaller formats) that makes it look so so good. Color is also amazing with the more recent films.

If I could shoot any format for landscape disregarding cost and convenience it would be 8x10 film (the latest color neg film) plus the appropriate scanning workflow.

Prints don't sell because they are ...prints! Prints sell because they are photo-graphs! ...and photo-graphs don't matter if they have info of 9 pixels per square mm of them, or 16, or 25, or more... they are photo-graphs with enough detail anyway!
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tim wolcott

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2015, 10:13:04 pm »

Really, nothing compares to a 80 megapixel camera.  With the new lenses NOTHING compares to the dynamic range, color rendition or sharpness.  And yes, I have used them all, and yes I invent make the first pigment prints so side by side if you disagree than prove it.  Because I have and I also was the head consultant to the Smithsonian for print technologies.  This really is a discussion that is stupid, but i think most people know the advantages of digital.

But if you think 8x10 is better than go back to the antiquated camera!!!

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mtomalty

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2015, 10:25:25 pm »


Wow. What an honor to be in your presence Tim.
You must be a real joy to work with at the Smithsonian.

Mark
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tim wolcott

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2015, 10:41:23 pm »

I didn't mean it that way.  I know it sounded that way, I meant to get back to revising this but someone here really annoyed me and it came out in this article the wrong way.  BUt what I do see is there are many many comments made on all photo sites without some sense of reality.  Most have not seen what can be really achieved by a 80 megapixels camera in the hands of someone who knows how to use it with proper printing.  So if you really want to see it then please come to the gallery that I just built using my new printing technology in Rancho Mirage.  To many people see web images and not seeing a really well executed photograph properly displayed.  And yes I do have some 4x5 and 8x10.  But if I could I would love to back in time with a Phase One camera and reshoot the old ones.

I don't work for the Smithsonian any more after they tried to steal my technology and threatened me with the 2nd largest law firm in the world.  And they used the good old line who do you think you are were the US Government.  By the way guess who one the battle, not them.

This is problem with the internet, I write as a matter a fact and it does not come off very well on the internet.  I'm not trying to offend anyone but everyone should see all the data before making opinions without seeing some well executed work.  Its funny no one said this about Ansel or Brett Weston when they talked this way.  Tim
« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 11:58:56 pm by tim wolcott »
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2015, 11:16:26 pm »

I maxed out a very steady 22mpixel 5Dm2 file at best with Fractal enlarging to about 30x40" and it is good even if you are are pretty close to it. But don't kid yourself. Closer inspection... if the client didn't have to have it 30x40 in a office space, I would have recommended the 28x36". (but closest you can step to it is 10feet, so its ok).

 If you want to put quality where your pixels are, you will surely see and love the difference of high mpixels of a digitalback or multi-shot , stitched file to output.  I printed files from a P45 and even that was a beauty to do 40x60. Lots of detail.

But if you expect people to be paying top dollar from some numbered prints, they better pass the walk up and sniff the paper test and pixels better be there. Otherwise, I would question the commitment and value in care the artist puts in the work!

Good art dealers/collectors know this stuff. I have turned some work into wall paper, and while that is lower res printing, if you wanted to do a Duratran large backlight, its nice when the details are all top notch sharp with meaty files. there is no substitute.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 11:51:26 am by Phil Indeblanc »
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torger

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2015, 04:51:02 am »

Why 80 instead of 60, or even 50 megapixels may be a more relevant question considering the available options. If you like high resolving power 80 megapixels is the current best (except for stitching) so just go for it. However if you have economy considerations, or lens compatibility considerations for tech cams a 60MP back is probably wiser option.

I'd like to have say 400-600 megapixels or so to really outresolve the optic system, make sure all digital artifacts are nullified by diffraction. That's not available today though, and today I don't think it's too big a difference between 50 and 80 megapixels.

To me making a print look nice big is not necessarily that the eye is out-resolved on nosing distance (although that is cool), but that the print lacks ugly artifacts on nosing distance, and what's ugly is a matter of taste. For example I prefer the structure of film grain much more than digital jaggies.

I prefer an oversized digital print look fuzzy at nosing distance rather than having false detail. I don't like the look of fractal upsizing either, I rather have that standard bicubic blur. Previously I shot at f/11 most of the time, but nowadays I shoot at f/16 with my 6um pixels (50-60 MP backs). Why? To reduce aliasing artifacts and give oversized prints a smoother look up close. May sound backwards to reduce resolution by diffraction to print larger, but that's exactly what I'm doing. I've done my own tests and come to the conclusion that I prefer that nosing look, and welcome the increased depth of field. Of course on normal viewing distance it doesn't matter, resolution is fine. Digital sharpening techniques makes it much easier to control the negative effects of diffraction than film too.

It also matters which type of landscapes you shoot. 90% of my landscape photos are close distance shots often 4:5 portrait format rather than wide panorama shots with lots of tiny details at infinity. Actually the background is often slightly out of focus in my shots due to limits of depth of field (and my desire to get a subtle layering effect in the scene). The grand panorama type of shot gains more from having high resolving power as it's more likely to be printed big and invites the viewer to step close and look at the details.

I've attached one shot to show an example where very high resolving power doesn't really provide much value. It's made with a 33 MP back and you don't really gain more meaningful detail with more resolving power. I actually didn't have any recent shot which show the opposite. But the best example where you really want lots of resolution is huge environmental group portraits in panorama format where you have relatively small faces in the frame, the viewer is then very much invited to step close.

Personally I don't stitch any longer as I don't think it's a satisfying way to do photography. For the same reason I don't focus stack either. One scene in one shot, ideally without need to crop in post -- that's how I like to make photographs. It's all in my head though, and if you don't have any issues regarding photographic enjoyment when it comes to stitching it's a great way to gain that extra resolution when you need it, and I'd say in most cases when that extra resolving power actually means anything are in such situations where stitching and stacking works well. Of course stitching with 80MP back gives you more pixels faster than a 50MP back, but I think the importance of high MP count is in any case further reduced in this scenario.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 05:08:21 am by torger »
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Mike Sellers

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2015, 09:03:47 am »

I didn't mean it that way.  I know it sounded that way, I meant to get back to revising this but someone here really annoyed me and it came out in this article the wrong way.  BUt what I do see is there are many many comments made on all photo sites without some sense of reality.  Most have not seen what can be really achieved by a 80 megapixels camera in the hands of someone who knows how to use it with proper printing.  So if you really want to see it then please come to the gallery that I just built using my new printing technology in Rancho Mirage.  To many people see web images and not seeing a really well executed photograph properly displayed.  And yes I do have some 4x5 and 8x10.  But if I could I would love to back in time with a Phase One camera and reshoot the old ones.

I don't work for the Smithsonian any more after they tried to steal my technology and threatened me with the 2nd largest law firm in the world.  And they used the good old line who do you think you are were the US Government.  By the way guess who one the battle, not them.

This is problem with the internet, I write as a matter a fact and it does not come off very well on the internet.  I'm not trying to offend anyone but everyone should see all the data before making opinions without seeing some well executed work.  Its funny no one said this about Ansel or Brett Weston when they talked this way.  Tim

Tim, care to share this new printing technology? Are you going to sell it?
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razrblck

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Re: Why 80MP for Landscapes
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2015, 10:06:05 am »

Tim, care to share this new printing technology? Are you going to sell it?

A good idea would be to develop some kind of very large panel of high density and high resolution (Retina-like) monitors for contact printing. That should give you enough pixel density to surpass inkjets, provided you can find photographic paper that big and with enough resolution to keep up.
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